Rename: Gambit Roulette

It says quite specifically in the very first sentence that this doesn't just apply to Xanatos Gambits. The name requires knowledge of another trope, and if you do have that knowledge it's misleading. Keeping it as Xanatos Roulette is quite likely going to contribute to the misuse and trope decay of Xanatos Gambit.

I'd also like to point out that this trope can occur with any complicated plan - be it a Xanatos Gambit, Batman Gambit, Kansas City Shuffle, or none of the above.

Suggest renaming to Gambit Roulette.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Something about "Gambit Roulette" seems off. I think it's the fact that it sounds like it is specifically a gambit involving roulette, rather than implying nigh impossible foreknowledge of events necessary to the gambit.

Considering how widespread it is, we need to prove misuse here. The might be some, but we need to look at it.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

1276 wicks, 26k inbounds, no misuse that I recall ever seeing. This trope is fine.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

I'd say the misuse is more likely to be in the form of contributing to the misuse of Xanatos Gambit - which is widespread and well-documented. This trope is both a symptom and a cause of people using Xanatos Gambit to mean "any complicated plan."

This trope's title is far too narrow for what it is. And while I'd normally not consider it a renaming offense for a healthy trope, the fact that it encourages misuse in another trope makes it a problem.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

There are good points for and against a rename. I tend to lean toward the rename, but I'm not at all certain about what would be a good suggestion. The ones that come to mind are Gambit Implausibility, Utterly Implausible Gambit, and Gambit Omniscience, but I think they're a little too clunky.

I personally lean towards a rename at least in part because these tropes are the only familiarity I have with "Xanatos", and because I think having the extra "Xanatos" tropes contributes to misuse of "Xanatos Gambit".

I kinda like "Utterly Implausible Gambit" and "Gambit Omniscience".

Me, I'm thinking of something along the lines of Contrived Coincidence + Gambit, but I can't come up with any alternatives.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

You know, gambit has a particular meaning too...

yeah, I'm thinking that since gambit means "sacrificing material in the hope of achieving a resulting advantageous position" that the name is meant to work as a whole and that assigning the full meaning to just "Xanatos" is a mistake and that the tropes that where made at around the same time as Xanatos Gambit (Xanatos Roulette and Xanatos Speed Chess) knew this and that we only increased the error with Batman Gambit, not detracted from it and that it seems hard to put the place of misuse on the secondary tropes when we have already clearly blamed it on:

• Not having a trope to cover the other situations
• Tropes Are Not Good
• One trope being already very well know and popular and drawing a lot more attention and thus more Square Peg Round Trope

And now indeed I feel that in fact, really the mistake about the name has been on the other side.

edited 15th Feb '11 1:43:06 AM by SomeSortOfTroper

That's the original meaning, but its broader meaning is also long-established. Dictionary.com's entry seems pretty accurate to me:

1. Chess . an opening in which a player seeks to obtain some advantage by sacrificing a pawn or piece.

2. any maneuver by which one seeks to gain an advantage.

3. a remark made to open or redirect a conversation.

If this were the Dawn Times of TV Tropes, I might suggest "scheme" or "stratagem" instead of "gambit" on the basis that some people might think of the more restrictive meaning, but renaming the various "gambit" tropes at this point strikes me as absurd.

edited 16th Feb '11 2:32:16 PM by tbarrie

it's well established, without excessive misuse that I can see. I think most tropers understand what it is so I don't see the need to change it.

Well here now, at the quarter past eleven of tv tropes, I think saying that Xanatos is being used to indicate one particular thing, when it wasn't, would be adding error to error.

I suppose another name for this trope could be Planning The Unplannable, given the audience reaction to this is "There's no way in hell you planned that!"

Accidental mistakes are forgivable, intentional ones are not.

That's a good one.

Australia The country with a 2 party system But all the power with independents

That's...not too bad...there's something about it that bugs me a bit, but I can't quite say what it is.

It's not the unplannable that's being planned. It's that the unplannable is being planned for. Planning For The Unplannable.

edited 17th Feb '11 4:50:08 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Bingo.

edited 17th Feb '11 9:02:56 PM by Willbyr

Accomodated The Implausible?

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

I like Planning for the Unplannable. Its more clear, its more concise, its Exactly what is says on the tin. It gets away from the Xanatos line and gets the sense of the audience's reaction.

Count me in for Planning For The Unplannable.  ^*

It's a better title all-around, and anything that gets us away from naming centuries-old plot devices after cartoon characters we just happened to be familiar with is a good move in my book.

edited 18th Feb '11 10:18:54 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to

These are all cool redirects. The current redirect all suck so we need more. However, if it is not broken why fix? It has many wikis and inbounds as well as lack significant misuses. It was said that it might be causing problems in another trope, but said problem really exist? This should be investigated before taking any measures.

As far I can tell the name is good, since the trope is working.

While we are discussing this page:

I think this might be one of the single most Natter-filled page I've seen in recent time. The Oceans Eleven and Harry Potter sections are... wow....

Does that mean this is an audience reaction trope? I've always wondered - there seems to be at least a fine line but "unlikely but possible plan" and "plan that could have succeeded only by direct Act of Author.

edited 19th Feb '11 12:30:08 AM by nrjxll

I would say no, it's just that a lot of people seem to go "I didn't like plan X" and list it there when it's not a Roulette while others feel that having a work/villain they like listed here is an insult and they need to "defend" them.

edited 19th Feb '11 12:33:26 AM by Ghilz

I would say yes. The hallmark of a Xanatos Roulette is that it breaks the Willing Suspension of Disbelief. The audience doesn't believe someone actually planned whatever happened because its too implausible and/or ridiculous.

That's why some tropers feel a need to defend plans; if someone thinks a plan in work X was bogus and someone else thinks its brillant, they disagree and the debate starts.