TroperTales curator questions

I can agree with the "cut the ego-stroking" sentiment.

However, I think there's been a sentiment in the past that "Troper Tales is more informal, it can be as nattery as we like." Certainly it was left out of the natter-purge. Purge the natter from there, too, and you're going to get some angry people on your hands, or at least accusations of Moving the Goalposts.

1. Entries must be examples of the trope. Not aversions, not "I wish this would happen." The trope has to happen. Subversions might be okay, but only if they're actually subversions and not aversions in disguise.
2. Entries should respect the Family Friendliness guidelines as though they were on the main page. Please, no gratuitous obscenity.
3. Please sign your entries. Issue to discuss: Should unsigned entries be subject to deletion?
4. Please use good spelling and grammar. Issue to discuss: Should messy entries be deleted? Should small errors be repaired, or should they be left to make us sic?

edited 8th Feb '11 10:25:24 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."

• There is probably a friendlier way to say #1.
• The gratuitous obscenity is not really a problem, in practice. No need for a special rule.
• Signing doesn't seem like a practical idea for this sort of thing.
• No need for a separate rule.

I think Maddy's list is a bit closer to the idea, less the emphasis discussed in the last bulletin.

@Triple Elation: That's already been covered in the crowner and in the decision to move Fetish Fuel off the wiki. Basically, the creepy stuff is on its way gone.

edited 8th Feb '11 11:16:06 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

Oh. Well, the stuff I mentioned is supposed to be kept- going by the ratio+curator criterion you laid out- which is why I assumed we are keeping it. If there was a part where it was decided the Fetish Fuel override includes that stuff too, I guess I missed it.

The rest of the issues we can probably deal with and live with. "It's about the trope, not about you" is a good middle ground between "ego-stroke away" and "no talking about yourself ever".

Thanks for the quick answer, at any rate.

edited 8th Feb '11 11:25:21 PM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to

I was working on something similar, here is my latest version:

• A Troper Tale is something that happened to you, something you witnessed, or something that describes you or someone you know that plays the trope straight.
  • No Subversions, Aversions, etc., please. Subversions of this trope may fit under "__". Troper tales are about the trope, not about you.
  • If you saw / read it in a book, TV show, etc., you can probably add it on the main page under the correct category. If you have questions, you can ask them on the discussion page or the forum.
  • Rumors go under the "Conspiracy Theories" category on the main trope page.
  • If the example comes from a story you are writing, you may list its tropes on a separate page for your work. See here.
• To be an example of the trope "___", your example must meet ALL of the following requirements:
  • <post short definition of trope here>

edited 8th Feb '11 11:36:50 PM by FrodoGoofballCoTV

I'd like to throw in the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment. Always a good thing to keep in mind.

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to

I was wondering what we should do about examples/thesises about the trope in real life. They don't follow the normal rules of "example of the trope", but there might be some good information contained which doesn't belong on the main page either.

For new examples, we can easily add a rule "If you want to discuss your pet theory of why this trope does or doesn't exist in Real Life. Please take such entries to the forums or the trope's Discussion Page"

But what should we do with pre-existing examples like that? Just zap them? Leave them but set aside on the page? Copy them to the discussion page?

For example, one of the pages I volunteered for is All Girls Want Bad Boys, this page contains several tries to explain why girls might prefer bad boys and why nice guys seem to have such bad luck. Some of these examples are indeed mysogenystic or Flame Bait and deserve to be zapped. But other examples raise pretty valid points which IMO deserve to be left. I just don't know whether Troper Tales is the preferred place for it.

Everything can be found on the Internet... except common sense.

Question: Would it be a good idea to point out the pages that are curated, to possibly curtail backlash against entries being cleaned up/removed based on the guidelines?

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!

Posters in Troper Tales should assume by default that all pages are curated. Pointing out which ones are and are not is a recipe for inviting trolls, not to mention wangsting when an "uncurated" page comes to the attention of someone and gets a trash sweep.

edited 9th Feb '11 6:29:01 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Good point, I did not consider that.

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!

On second thought, I think many of the ego-stroking entries could fall under the "entries must be an example of the trope" rule Madrugada suggested. I can think of several tropes where trying hard to convince people you're an example means that you're not an example.

edited 9th Feb '11 6:49:26 AM by Redhead

The new It Just Bugs Me!

I swear I Read That As "an alarmingly improving rate." Six and half a dozen, I suppose.

Aversions should be cut basically everywhere; I don't know how it happened that Troper Tales became a sanctuary for them.

Well, neither are ED and 4chan, so it can go there.

I would mention You Know That Show here.

Isn't that implicit in the trope, or the Laconic page if there is one?

Or Analysis. Neglect not Analysis.

Also, the point is not to keep people from adding stuff that's not appropriate for fear someone is watching, the point is that it's not appropriate.

---

Is there a definitive, official list of which TT pages were cut? I've listed myself as curator for a bunch of them, all are currently blue, but I'm not going to fix up a page that's on its way out either way.

As for criteria, in one of the cleaned-up pages I sandbox I explicitly removed some entries on the grounds of uncalled-for nastiness.

EDIT: I assume this whole discussion also applies to TT pages that weren't on the crowner. Yesterday and today I definitely saw pages with Troper Tales that would seem to me to be as prone to ego-stroking or wangst as pages listed but were overlooked; I don't want them to be ignored in the clean-up effort.

edited 9th Feb '11 7:19:37 AM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

I agree with you there, I just initially brought up the point in relation to a potential backlash against curating by those who are not used to their TT entries being modified.

But Fighteer brought up a good reason why that idea could do more harm than good.

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!

... Well, I guess I should go nuke the 'delebrity' sections of Even The Girls Want Her and Even The Guys Want Him, then. I'll clean them up more later; no time now.

edited 9th Feb '11 8:33:48 AM by YamiiDenryuu

I couldn't conceive a dream so wet; your bongos make me congo.

The "content guideline" should be linked in a banner that's automagically at the top of every Troper Tales subpage. This will help with the issue of people going all Freak Out about the sudden onset of curation.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Ok, some observations from looking at the crowner and results again:

• I'd like to at least discuss what to do with admissions of illegal activity. I'm inclined to leave most of them alone, particularly mala prohibida or things that are perfectly legal in many jurisdictions in which tropers live, and look at them on a case-by-case basis; I think it's prudish to kill them automatically.
• Relatedly, we should discuss what to do with admissions of unwholesome activity, particularly if it's also illegal. I think you can guess what I have in mind. "Unwholesome" is kinda subjective but I think there's a far left tail most of us can agree on.
• Self-described rebelliousness is annoying, but I don't know if it's so annoying that that per se should justify removing it. I suspect it'll almost always be tangential anyway.
  • Similarly with other forms of obnoxiousness.
• Once we nail down guidelines, it might not be a bad idea to look at some of the close keeps from the crowner to see if it's even possible for a TT entry that's actually an example of the trope to fall within the other guidelines.

edited 9th Feb '11 12:05:55 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

^^ A banner explaining the purpose of Troper Tales would go a long way in that direction. Posting what amounts to a list of rules on every page of the namespace doesn't sound like it would be much fun to read.

What is the funniest, friendliest way to describe what Troper Tales is for?

The fine print can go in a guideline page.

edited 9th Feb '11 12:11:51 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

The problem with dealing with illegal activity is that Getting Known on this wiki provides no personally identifiable information other than an IP address that could be traced back to a troper, unless they offer it voluntarily. We could hand over such things to law enforcement and they'd probably laugh at us.

However, we could be held legally accountable for this stuff in some arcane way that I don't know all the details of, and rather than take that risk, I'd say that frank admissions of illegal behavior ought to be forbidden.

Edit: Eddie, you ninja you. Let's try something like this.

---

This is a Troper Tales article. It is for discussion of how Life Imitates Art — the myriad ways that tropes appear in tropers' lives. We do have [insert wick] guidelines, though, and inappropriate entries may be modified or deleted. Please exercise good taste and judgement.

---

edited 9th Feb '11 12:25:11 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Should that link to this somewhere?

Would the wiki be held accountable or might it?

Ok, that's a bit combative. Accountable by whom, where, and for what? And illegal activity where? Is "I had sex with a 17-year-old" an admission of illegal activity? It's illegal in California, but 17 is old enough to consent in most of the English-speaking world  ^*

. I'd like to find out before incorporating it into the rules, particularly for mala prohibida and other things that might vary wildly from place to place.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

I have no idea, not being an expert on such things, and that's why I'd like to veer on the side of caution. Let's say that outright illegal things (I smuggled drugs!) are verboten, and things that are illegal in your local jurisdiction are discouraged. Say you slept with a 17-year old - if that was okay where you live, fine, but if not... yeah, not a good idea.

edited 9th Feb '11 12:32:32 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Since the Subversions and Aversions are not-okay, what about Exaggerations, Zig Zags and Inversions?

Troper Page

Several s...

Point being, there's no way to tell "obviously fake," and "I don't believe it" deletions will lead to false positives. Real life doesn't have to make sense and Troper Tales aren't going to be 100% truthful.

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.

How the heck do you have those on Troper Tales? I think people are putting too much emphasis on creativity over facts. Straight uses only should be the general rule. Obviously, curators can exercise a certain amount of discretion.

edited 9th Feb '11 12:47:08 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

In the U.S. and the U.K., a site cannot be shut down by the government merely because people mention breaking the law there. No information identifying who posts what is gathered, so it can't be subpoenaed.

I doubt Frank Warren is any better able to hire lawyers than TV Tropes is, and seems to have few qualms about being a conduit for admissions of illegal activity.

But I'm just speculating myself; I just don't want to incorporate speculation either way without something backing it up.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus