Discussion YMMV / PokemonSunAndMoon

At the very least, you misused the trope Obvious Beta. That trope doesn't mean "this game is missing content," it means "this game is blatantly and exceptionally buggy/glitchy," which Sun and Moon aren't aside from some occasional slowdown. Cut or rewrite that section.

I'm pretty sure Seinfeld Is Unfunny is supposed to refer to works that were once considered influential when they were first released, but seem pretty average to modern viewers because of how many works copied what made them so unique. Sun and Moon are only a year old, so it's far too early to make comments about how dated the games are. The entry as written seems to be more about how Sun and Moon are not as complete as Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, which seems like misuse to me.

But these games go further then they do, and its much better done because they aren't limited to sprites anymore, as those made the darker elements of the old games narm.

Team Rocket, only Killed Cubone, and there was a cemetary, but there's far darker stuff since then.

Even as early as R/S/E there were world-destroying villains and stuff. R&B also contained implied suicide in Giovanni. And just darker villains and Pokedex entries (Seriously? Those are just info about various Pokemon. Doesn't imply a darker tone on the whole) aren't enough to qualify for this trope. The games have ALWAYS been dark under the surface. The villain in these games may have tried to destroy the world, but some tried to destroy the Universe.

This game is much darker. Sure there's been dark stuff in the past but it was still the typical stuff. Lusamine takes things way too far and there's also the Downer Ending that no other game has had as well as that you almost get killed 3 times (Ghetsis only tries to kill you once) and lots of people die off screen or it's more implied than ever before. This game makes Pokemon Colosseum and XD and even the Mystery Dungeon games look light in comparison. Let's not even get started with the fact that it's a Genre Deconstruction.

Mystery Dungeon Explorers of Time was Far, FAR darker. The world in the future is that of COMPLETE DARKNESS, the whole thing is a suicide mission, and the post-credits scenes say to kill yourself. Lots of implied darkness has happened before, even back to Red and Blue.

And again, villains in the past have done things like try to destroy the whole universe.

And the downer ending with the Ultra Beasts happened before the game's events, and there were downers before, like Mystery Dungeon, again.

But this is literally a villain that psychologically messes with the characters such as Lillie and Gladion. We haven't that before. Every other villain was a well-intended extremist. Lusamine isn't even close to that level. She's arguably tragic but the stuff she did was so messed up it really didn't matter. Also she's basically a reference to Ragyo in Kill la Kill and that's a TV-MA show (Albeit she did get censored but only because of Ragyo's brutal suicide and her purification rituals, everything else stayed in tact).

It still doesn't count as being that much darker. And referencing Kill La Kill doesn't really make it darker.

They happened before the games events, but its an event thats far darker then Cyrus's attempt at destroying the universe, because it implies that even with something like, not even what Cyrus would do would be enough to stop the ultra beasts.

It just doesn't seem like it's that much darker to me. I just think it should go.

Trying to destroy the universe>>>Trying to destroy the earth.

Black and White was the only game to be sufficiently darker as well as being much more of a deconstruction than these.

Except its darker because the plan involved when lusamine tried to summon them was psychologically damaging on her children. The scale of it matters less then the effects it has on the people experiencing it.

Lots of Pokemon games have dark backstories as well, like X&Y and the war.

Except they didn't try to destroy the Earth the Ultra Beasts succeeded at destroyed the Pre-Gen VI timeline, something that Cyrus couldn't do. Again you missed that argument that it's a Deconstruction. Considering that most deconstructions are much darker except parodies you ignoring this argument are not helping yourself at all. At this rate we'll get a mod or an admin if you keep it up because you're the one that keeps on deleting something that is considered true. Difference of opinion doesn't mean you can delete a trope. Most tropes are factual information.

It's less of a deconstruction than Black and White, which does fall under this. And there's lots of deconstructions which aren't that dark.

It also isn't considered "true" and it isn't "factual".

Black And White has elements of Deconstruction, but not as much as these games do.

Plus, unlike these games, Black and White's fall flat by the mere fact that Ghetsis is the real villain in those rather then N.

There's still the matter of The Ultra Beasts succeeding where Cyrus failed, the destruction of a universe.

No, Black and White had much more deconstruction, like the Pokemon fighting/Dogfighting allusions being dealt with.

Except it doesn't matter, because with Ghetsis as the main villain, all of what he says is a load of shit because he was fooling people into giving up their pokemon so only he could have them.

Let's leave the What Do You Mean, It's for Kids? entry as it is until we can determine whether or not it fits.

To see if the games qualify for this trope, they must be geared towards a young audience, but have mature themes, which I believe were discussed in the entry. If we're unsure, there's always this thread.

I propose a final compromise. Cut it from this page, but move it under the general franchise page, as it's more of a series-wide thing then a game-specific thing.

I believe it's much darker, not necessarily in terms of Premise, but because Sun/Moon are much more explicit than the vast majority of other entries. The dark dex entries actually get mentoined in the story, the Final Boss's One-Winged Angel ransformation , the repeatedly mentoined parental abuse that takes center stage... with the exception of Red/Blue's mentoining of Marowak getting killed, none of the main series entries get anywhere near as dark. The Mystery Dungeon games do, but they are their own side-series and even they abstain from mentoining "death". Lastly, I respectfully believe you have no business removing this entry because it's "heavily contested", when you are the only one making a big deal out of it.

Just... please stop it. Tropetastic's last sentence is completely correct. You had no business commenting out the entry without other people agreeing on it. Stop it with your "darkness and family-unfriendly stuff is a prominent staple of every single game!" gimmick.

By viewing the edit history and from Berrenta's comment, I think people want to leave the entry in for now.

As someone who doesn't think Darker and Edgier applies, I think this is fine. This is an audience reaction and, whether or not you think the games are appreciably darker, there is a very vocal portion of fanbase who ask themselves this question.

Furthermore, "it has always been dark" is just irrelevant here. Even if this installment was way lighter than past installments, this can still apply.

I guess you're right. However, remove the part about the story being "introspective", that simply isn't true.

Also Darthrai I am right, darkness has been a staple since day ONE.

I believe these games to be much darker than most main series entries because they are more explicit than most, and because the story revolves around the player and lillie in a more personal manner. SO long story short, I DO believe Darker and Edgier is warranted, and I want it to be put to a vote because I am tired of this constant Edit War.

Darker and Edgier is not YMMV. This is not dependent of opinion. Reading the description of the trope, this is a type of Tone Shift. One of the tropers favorable to Darker and Edgier in the discussion page of the main Pokemon Sun And Moon outright admitted that the tone is constant.

I'll let What Do You Mean, It's for Kids? stay, but I think we should delete the part about the story being "highly deconstructive and thought provoking" because it isn't.

Apparently WhatArtThee was suspended for this type of editing/attitude? I haven't really been in the loop.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?type=att#48415

EDIT: Ugh. He's still at it and made edits of that type even today.

And to WhatArtThee, stop acting like you actually have authority over what tropes belong and which ones don't. You aren't a mod. You can only argue why you believe that they apply or don't.

I don't have authority, and I do admit i was in the wrong about the trope. But you don't have authority either.

I personally don't find either side of this argument agreeable. A lot of inaccurate things in regards to past games and these ones have been stated on both ends.

I think we mostly try to stay non-biased in that. That has a bit bias in it. Keep it how it is.

Is it truly bias if the game itself is saying it? But all right.

There's nothing in the game saying that Lusamine was partially aware of anything she was doing wrong.- Nihilego's neurotoxins had thoroughly warped her mind so that all of her natural instincts to give love and affection were directed towards Nihilego now, and all that did not share anything in common with the gold standard for beauty and worth that Nihilego had become to Lusamine would be discarded and deemed "ugly." In addition to nullifying her inhibitions and emotional impulse control, the toxins also warped her moral agency and state of mind so that wrong was right, down was up, right was left, etc. for Lusamine and she became disconnected from actual reality. What beating her in her motherbeast form did was snap a part of her mind back awake to sanity and clarity, and from there it was made possible for her to regain sanity for the rest of her mind too, and thus regain her lost humanity.

Moral Event Horizon requires the character to be considered irredeemably evil past that point.

If she is not so portrayed then I don't think she crossed the MEH.

I personally don't see how the way in which she risked the lives of both Cosmog and all of Alola was not a MEH crossing, to say nothing of attempting to murder her own child. We've had characters who were technically redeemed or forgiven in the end cited as having crossed a MEH before. Part of what makes it a YMMV trope is that a lot of people may believe that while a character can go over the MEH, there's nothing saying that they can't eventually scale backwards from it rather than keep on going.

Also, Lusamine was not brainwashed - she had her moral and mental inhibitions and her emotional impulse control nullified via intoxication by Nihilego. She had her mind warped and driven to insanity, but she wasn't brainwashed or under mind control.

Now this is an interesting topic.

You could either argue that the developers knew they'd be difficult so they made it so that losing to them doesn't have much consequence (outside of not being able to get Experience). What matters is that they're difficult, and so, they are That One Boss.

Or, you could argue that because losing to them doesn't have much consequence (outside of not being able to get Experience), you can lose to them without worry. So it doesn't matter how difficult they are, it would be rendered moot when losing to them is just a slap on the wrist.

Unless there's another way to look at this.

I want to say I lean towards the former. I don't think anything in the game (unless I missed it) indicated that losing to them will still advance the story. Meaning for the uninitiated, for all they know they could be fighting a hell of a boss fight. And they probably are and will. It was a tough boss fight and that's probably all that should matter for That One Boss. However, I'm also curious how this is handled in other games. Like in other games, possibly other role playing games like Pokemon, are there bosses that are considered very tough but defeating them is technically optional as the story would still continue? How is it handled here?

See, I don't think the developers's consideration of difficulty has anything to do with it- you still black out if you lose to the Totems and Kahunas (and several other surprise bosses)- but instead the plot relevance of you winning that fight. Obviously, the game wouldn't let you continue the game if you failed every Trial, but the friendly spars against Hau and the Heads I Win, Tails You Lose that Lusamine's battle sorta had means that you losing those battles doesn't particularly change the plot. (Using this logic, it kinda makes sense for Lusamine (Ultra Space) to be optional, but I haven't tested this).

You are correct in that those losses being acceptable are not indicated beforehand.

As for other cases, I strongly suspect Fire Emblem has an equivalent (but I can't name the instance) but that's the extent of my knowledge on the subject. Coverage on the consequences of losing battles is actually pretty sparse- and for all I know, The Battle Didn't Count could've been applied already in Gen VI, and the higher difficulty of Sun and Moon meant that people might actually have accidentally stumbled into it.

I'm pretty familiar with Fire Emblem but most of the tough bosses are usually chapter/story bosses that you are forced to defeat to move on. And if you die at any point, well, there's no letting up, you just lose. You either get a Game Over if your main character dies or if another character dies then they're gone for good. In Fire Emblem Fates there's one chapter where there's a really tough boss who guns you down from across the map and he's nearly impossible to defeat, making the map a time limit to get to the exit before you run into him. While in Path of Radiance there's a Duel Boss that has really high stats and power, and defeating him is essentially a Luck-Based Mission. But you can choose to escape from him if desired, you just miss out on getting EXP and a different character. Both examples are That One Boss, both are considered very tough bosses, but they're also technically optional. You don't have to fight them, but if you do, you're in for one hell of a fight. And if you do lose the fight, you're done for, the story doesn't continue (at least if any character other than the main character loses to them).

With all of this in mind... With those Fire Emblem bosses, fighting them is optional, but if you fight them and lose with the main character, the game is over. With Hau and Lusamine, fighting them is not optional, but winning is optional. So... yeah, let's think about this some more.

Yeah, I think the permadeath is the limiting factor there. Which is why I wasn't confident in naming a specific example. Since then, I also came up with a couple of bosses on Defend maps (Aias in Sacred Stones and Ike in Radiant Dawn), but yeah, it is quite clearly different.

As for other RP Gs... yeah, I think what we need to do is find instances where you are roped into a battle where the outcome doesn't change before we consider their difficulty.

Now confirmed: Lusamine (Ultra Space) does make you black out if you lose. Which makes sense, since she is the Climax Boss, but I did have reason to suspect otherwise.

I think I MAY have found an example. Funnily enough, it's also a Pokemon game.

The main antagonist of Pokkén Tournament, a Shadow Mewtwo, has a Final Boss Preview after earlier leagues. Beating Shadow Mewtwo is possible, and gives you a nice reward if you do, but it is rather tricky to manage (especially for newcomers to the game) and a loss offers no penalty, not even the virtual slap-on-the-wrist losing a League Match is.

He's not listed under 'That One Boss' in Pokken's YMMV, even though his final encounter is. I don't know if this is because the final Shadow Mewtwo fight is just that much more difficult, or it's because of this 'losses don't matter' attitude.

Yeah, honestly, I've never seen First Impression. Ever. (As in, literally never seen the animation).

Lusamine (Aether Paradise) and Hau (Malie City) are not required battles, which makes their eligibility suspect (I need to reconsult the definition, but I'm fairly sure that their optional-ness does disqualify them in this instance).

But this is YMMV, so I guess I'll accept the idea of someone finding Totem Salazzle difficult.

In my playthrough of the game, Guzma's Goliosopd would always give me trouble with First Impression, so I guess those people who had Goliosopod waste its first turn with Swords Dance just got lucky. Though I think the all the examples should be kept as long as being optional doesn't disqualify the Hau and Lusamine examples since this is YMMV. I've also personally ran into several examples of bosses and levels I had no trouble with listed under That One Boss and That One Level respectively.

Guzma always used First Impression for me as well. You guys could of gotten lucky.

Even if Golisopod uses Swords Dance it's still a pain to take out if you're around his level given the thing's bulk. Gave me a ton of trouble on the first time, as did Ariados. Hau at Ula'Ula stomped me flat. Leafeon is quite bulky.

Ive also never seen first impression. I havent lost a pokemon in any fight against him.

This is actually an interesting question. The fact you don't have to beat him to progress in the game might be a strike against him. He did wipe the floor with me, but that's because I didn't have my A-team on me and couldn't backtrack to get them (this might be a point in his favour, except most people tend to have A-teamers on them at all times).

That is to say, because of the fact that you don't have to beat him, that might not count this fight as That One Boss? After all, the story continues win or lose, meaning the only risk when losing is losing out on EXP and money that you gain. Right?

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

If you plan to win the fight, it's quite the doozy. But it's not like Whitney's Miltank or Totem Lurantis in that you HAVE to win the fight.

Yeah, my apologies for being ramble-y there.

But yes, so my point was that I feel like players might have questioned why Hau chose the starter weak to yours, leaving the stronger starter's fate unknown. And the fact that Kukui has the Pokemon that is the final evolution of that starter. I just felt like it was another point that made the Final Boss fight all the more enjoyable. Your ultimate test, the final trainer, using the Pokemon that beats your starter as his final Pokemon.

He did challenge the Indigo League before, so we know he has raised other Pokemon, but we never get any explicit detail on what he used, although he does use Kanto Pokemon like Snorlax, and he also has a Magnezone, the final evolution of a Kanto Pokemon. I think the only pretty clear and reasonable assumption for Alolan Pokemon would be his Rockruff since we do see him with that and it evolves into Lycanroc. There's nothing explicitly clear about the starter, but the fact that we don't know what happens to the starter that's strong against yours in the beginning and the fact that Kukui happens to have it... I think it's also reasonable to assume that he raised that one too.

It is all guessing and assumption in the end, of course. Kukui as the Final Boss was just so great in multiple ways, and the fact that he answers the question of where the starter strong against yours went (since he DOES use it, regardless of where it came from), I think is a pretty good point for his boss fight being enjoyable.

Kukui using a starter that is strong against yours is a fact. What isn't a fact is whether it's the same starter from the trio of starters that Hala offers at the start of the game, as opposed to simply his own starter from his own island challenge X years ago that coincidentally is strong against the type you chose. Reasonable or not, speculation is speculation.

If it is a point of enjoyment that Kukui uses a starter evolution that's strong against yours, the example should be phrased to reflect that. It needn't mention the possibility that it is the starter than the MC and Hau did not choose.

I understand, then. While it may be a reasonable assumption, it's still an assumption. So what if it was worded in a way that just stated facts?

"And finally, after going through the entire game of never seeing the starter that's strong against yours, it turns out that Kukui's ace Pokemon so happens to be the final evolution of that very starter."

The way this is worded states a fact: you never see the starter that beats yours. You only see the starter that's weak against yours, and that's Hau, throughout its entire evolutionary line. It doesn't mention that it was the starter that you and Hau didn't pick, but rather, the starter that coincidentally happens to beat yours. How does that sound?

Still seems kinda off, somehow. Can't quite place my finger on it. Meh, it's good. It's got my vote.

I also believe that it is implied that Hau's starter is also independent of the set you were offered (think Hugh from B 2 W 2), and just happens to be what your Pokemon is strong against.

It's nothing new to the series for a major character to have a starter dependent on your own, but is not chosen from the same set. The Schrödinger's Player Character in Hoenn and Sinnoh also have this trait.

If you think it's fine I'll put it in for now Eagal. If it could be worded better (I do feel like it could be) then by all means, fix it up.

It transpires that I was wrong about it not being mentioned afterwards. Go figure.

You were right. I decided to clean the section up a bit, thanks for the information.

never mind i made a mistake

That sounds fitting enough.

If it explains the other side (I see only complaints right now), it'll be good.

Also, Incineroar deserves a Tainted by the Preview entry over the (refuted) fears of being another Fire/Fighting type.

Well, what people like about Incineroar is the fact that it's Fire/Dark instead of Fire/Fighting (which people were afraid of it becoming) and its Large Ham With A Heart Of Gold personality.

What people don't like about Decidueye comes down to its design (and the fact that its secondary type changes?) and Primarina gets some hate from the usual Popplio haters, not being a clown, and the situational side effect of its signature move.

I could be wrong on some points, but those are just some complaints/praises I remember seeing.

Maybe it's just because we have different pools of reference, but I don't recall seeing enough backlash against Decidueye to warrant it a spot on the list of base-breaking characters - if anything it's probably the most popular of the starter evolutions so far.

Incineroar definitely counts for being bipedal (as it appears a lot of people wanted it to stay a quadruped), but it's not as hated now as it was before thanks to it not being a Fighting-type, so it can stay as an example of a base-breaking character.

For Primarina, I suggest having the entirety of the Popplio line under one bullet point to make the page a little less messy, as complaints about Primarina seem to be for the same reasons that people have complained about Popplio and Brionne.

I've seen a small camp in various places mentioning they hate all the designs of the Final Evolutions of the Starters unilaterally but I doubt that would be worth mentioning once the YMMV page is unlocked again since it is a small camp much like the people who don't like Decidueye, Incineroar and the entire Popplio line makes the most sense for the revised entries.

Yeah, Decidueye seems the best received out of three starters' final evolutions, from what I've seen. After their (more specifically, Incineroar's) typings reveal, it seems Decidueye > Incineroar > Primarina.

You can make requests for additions here

Here is the place to ask for unlocking pages. It's unlikely they'll unlock it just for you, but if politely ask and make a good argument for it, maybe they can be persuaded to add some of what you want added.

This page is probably not being unlocked until the game releases. It was locked after the demo was datamined, and it's impossible to trust users to not spill info about every single datamined detail and spoil the game for people just taking a look. Sorry, but you'll have to wait about 20 more days for it to be safe to edit again.

Yeah, it's getting a little out of hand. Memetic Mutation and Ensemble Darkhorse and several similar tropes have their own pages anyway, so we can probably start there. After that, maybe kinda gather up the similar entries and condense them?

I might also suggest separate sections for the game as a whole, and for Characters and/or Pokemon.

I think the descriptions in languages other than English and Japanese used male pronouns, though I'm going by what I've heard about it.

Those that care about IVs mostly only do so for competitive play, so talk about the main story is a bit of a moot point.

Even with the level 100 restriction,Hyper Training will presumably be "easier" to perform than the current eugenics programs used to produce mons with perfect minds, bodies, personalities, and talents; or in the case of non-breedables, Save Scumming while praying to the Random Number God. I say "presumably" because we don't know how tedious making use of Hyper Training will be in comparison to the current methods. And tedium is the reason I put "easier" in quotes, because it's not difficult at all to follow the steps to breed/catch competitive Pokémon, just tedious.

There are those that mistake tedium for difficulty and those that are bitter about any possibility of others not going through what they went through to get what they want.

Pokémon already has a series-wide memes page. However, it's very disorganized and overcrowded. I could work on it later today or tomorrow.