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MattStriker
topic
02:14:13 PM Feb 2nd 2014
So...what would you say should our policy be regarding eARC stuff? I'm pretty sure quite a few people here have the Cauldron of Ghosts eARC, but should we actually start adding examples from it? I mean, it's not exactly released yet, is it?
AFP
09:36:01 PM Jun 4th 2014
Not really sure if there's an easy answer for that. It's one thing to get spoiled because you didn't start reading the book when it came out, it's another to get spoiled because you didn't pay for the rough draft before the book even got published. And yet... it's out in the wild just the same. If only there was a subpage for unpublished spoilers (based on Word of God, leaked scripts, etc.) similar to how there's a YMMV tab and Trivia tab where such things could be listed and then moved as they become published canon.
RoseAndHeather
topic
08:30:27 PM Dec 3rd 2013
What do you tropers think of splitting the individual book descriptions off to their own page? The main page is getting a bit unwieldy, and I think could do with reducing the text to summaries of the separate sub-series, but detail the synopses of the individual books on a separate page.
Nohbody
07:34:25 AM Dec 4th 2013
I don't think it's really a problem yet, especially with the "close all folders" option.

Also, no matter how you slice it, unless Weber, Flint, and the rest of the regular authors all kick the bucket at the same time, it's always going to be messy. Weber takes the "opera" part of Space Opera quite literally, as in a grand affair that takes forever to get through. :P
RoseAndHeather
04:04:06 PM Dec 4th 2013
I certainly see your point, but frankly I'd rather deal with the problem now than three or four years down the line when we've got another half dozen books and a couple of anthologies to make things messier. Frankly, it's a matter of it being easier to split the books off to their own page while they're not creating a problem than splitting it off when they already are a problem. If I took care of it now, I could have it done in less than an hour. Once Zahn's sub-series kicks in, though, and we have even more canon material floating around... *shudder*

An ounce of prevention, and all that. The folders help, but I still think things would be more streamlined if we kept the main page to sub-series descriptions only and had the individual books summarized on a separate page.
Nohbody
06:42:02 AM Dec 5th 2013
edited by 75.139.77.155
Something that came to mind at work last night: Why have synopses in the first place? I mean, yeah, it's nice to have a rough idea of what happens when without having to wade through the trope lists (even before the split), but at the risk of invoking Tropers Law, after some thinking it seems to me that the more detail about the individual works in the series, the more the page (well, pages, now) are heading towards being more like The Other Wiki.

Setting that aside, though, I am concerned that the more the HH page is broken down, the less people will actually read it, not wanting to be bothered with chasing down every subpage (which is why I lifted the trope list header idea from The Order of the Stick, to add another option to go with the indexing footer).

—-

And on a tangentially related note, it looks like the character sheet is also going to have to be split up. By the current folder splits, or something else? Not sure what the text character count breakdowns will look like using the folder model.

(Added this as an edit to not bury the synopsis discussion beneath another thread.)
RoseAndHeather
12:45:47 PM Dec 5th 2013
edited by 65.27.97.229
...okay, that's a very valid point and one I didn't think of. I keep forgetting that not everyone is as obsessed with that series as I am (and therefore not as likely to follow a link to a different page).

I think we do need (brief - maybe a rule that it should be kept to three or four lines max per book, and less if at all possible?) synopses of the books, though, because especially later on, so many books run concurrently. Those of us who know the series can throw around phrases like "In A Rising Thunder this happens..." and know exactly when/where in the series we are, but a novice is going to be going, "Wait, what happens in A Rising Thunder exactly, and where in the timeline is it?" If we have synopses of the novels on hand, they can look at the main page and go, "Oh, that's when/where this stuff happens!" and the example will have more context. It's not like we're even putting up full back-cover blurbs - just a very rough, one- to three-sentence description.

And now that I think about it, splitting the novel synopses off to their own page would encourage people to make the descriptions longer. Okay, yeah, that is a bad plan. Consider me talked out of it.

—-

As for the characters - perhaps Manticore/Grayson on one page (perhaps with treecats), Haven on another, and then everybody else? Giving each individual star nation/faction its own page has its appeal, but that is a lot of subpages.

Or we could do Manticore/Grayson/Haven (so really The Big Three), Manticoran allies (Talbott/Torch/Treecats/Historical/Andermani if they ever get added), and then the other side (Mesa/Solarian/Alignment) faction.

The other possibility is The Grand Alliance (Manticore/Grayson/Haven/Talbott/Treecats) on one page and everyone else on the other, but that's gonna be a pretty uneven split loaded in favor of the Alliance.
Nohbody
05:36:25 PM Dec 5th 2013
Looking at the folders in the current character sheet, how about Manticoran Alliance (the original allies of Manticore, Grayson, Erewhon, Andermani Empire, and the other minor polities that don't get much air time except for getting their asses kicked up between their ears during Haven's big offensives prior to their collective Heel-Face Turn), Haven, Solarian League, and Others for all the rest?

This would be a lot easier without Haven dropping the "People" part of their name. Without that it could just be "good guys" and "bad guys". :P
RoseAndHeather
08:13:34 PM Dec 5th 2013
Which is the same reason I flatly refuse to allow Haven to be lumped in with 'the bad guys'. I'm far too desperately in love with Tom, Eloise, Warner, Javier, Shannon, Lester, Denis, and company to stand for that.

  • grumble*stupid heel face turn making character splitting hard*grumble* *grumble*stupid havenites making me fall in love with them*grumble*

If we do go with Manticoran Alliance/Haven/etc. split, though, does the Solarian League really have enough characters to justify its own separate page? Or should we just split it with Manticoran Alliance/Haven/Other? I mean, the Grand Alliance is basically the Manticoran Alliance plus Haven...

...but then there's Talbott.

...well crap. This is hard.
Nohbody
10:47:30 PM Dec 5th 2013
The idea for Solies as their own page was more about their status in the story, not their character population. I can see where a whole page for just the Sollies would be a bit undersized compared to the others.

How about this:
  • Manticore and acquisitions (including Talbot, since they're eventually officially incorporated into SKM)
  • Aligned with Manticore (Torch, non-Manticore members of the original Manticoran Alliance)
  • Haven
  • Solarian League and Mesa (given how they're so intertwined due to Mesan scheming)

I still haven't done a size check on how things would break down mind you (partly because I have no idea of what could be used to count up the text characters), so I could have a pretty lousy balance going with the above.
RoseAndHeather
11:20:34 PM Dec 5th 2013
Yeah, I see where you were coming from Solly-wise. (Alas, I am interested in the Solarians only insofar as how they die at the hands of my Alliance, so I don't really pay enough attention to fill that sort of page out. If a troper comes along who actually is interested in the Sollies, we might want to think about giving them their own page, though....)

Hmmm, yes, I like that a lot. As for character counts, perhaps try it first in a Sandbox before we do the real thing? We can always re-juggle - lump Talbott in with Torch & co, for instance - if we need to shift things. Even despite my efforts on Haven's behalf, Manticore's probably always going to have the longest page, but we really can't make a final decision until we know how the character counts break down, I think.

So that would be Manticore/Talbott, Grayson/Torch/Erewhon/Alizon/Zanzibar/Andermani, Haven, and Sollies/Mesa? Yes. Yes, I think that works out really well.
Nohbody
06:54:16 AM Dec 6th 2013
edited by 75.139.77.155
Given how long this discussion is getting and how it's gone from the synopsis issue to character page splitting, I started a new conversation here about the split.
MattStriker
topic
09:28:14 PM Sep 15th 2013
edited by 80.108.49.108
I was thinking about expanding the Gambit Pileup entry (for Crown of Slaves) in the form of this footnote:

"Let's try a summary (warning, spoilers!):[[note]]

The lieutenant governor of a solarian verge sector conspires to kill an annoying political activist (while pinning the blame on Manpower) in return for a political alliance with his successor. The officer he employs as his hatchetman is actually setting him up for failure in a bid to gain the favor of the sector governor, who is running his own long-term gambit to secede from the League. The people who actually carried out the hit are exiled Masadans normally in the employ of Manpower, who also have their own personal revenge plot going. The activist's funeral on the planet Erewhon attracts a Manticoran princess looking to start a career in intelligence, along with Anton Zilwicki who gets shanghaied into being her mentor. For convoluted reasons, the princess and Zilwicki's adopted daughter are disguised as each other. The funeral (and assorted intrigue) also attracts Havenite junior superspy Victor Cachat, who plans to draw Erewhon away from the Manticoran alliance. Meanwhile, an Erewhonese politician is looking for an opportunity to work his way back into the top level of power on his homeworld. Oh, and the terrorists-slash-freedom-fighters of the Audobon Ballroom are looking for a way to strike against the Manpower-owned slave colony of Congo, effectively next door (astronomically speaking) to Erewhon.

And these are just the major players. Every single character in this book has a personal agenda and/or gets roped into one of the bigger plots somehow. [[/note]]"

I ended up discarding the whole entry because it was turning into a wall-of-text...but really, Crown of Slaves is SUCH an epic case of Gambit Pileup that I also feel it deserves a bit of expansion just to point out the sheer insanity of it.

Anybody got any saner ideas to flesh it out? :P
RoseAndHeather
09:47:22 PM Sep 15th 2013
Let's be real here, Crown of Slaves is, like, Gambit Pileup: The Novel. That note actually looks pretty good to me, although of course the actual plot is more complex than that! :D Some things deserve a wall of text, and I'd have to say this is one of them.
Nohbody
12:04:11 AM Sep 16th 2013
I don't know. I mean, yes detail is nice, but does the entry really need to go on for a long paragraph? Remember, you don't need to get into the fine details of everything for a trope entry. This is TV Tropes, not TV Essays. :P

As for a more concise version, I'd have to think about it a bit. Right now I have to go wrangle Housepets! a bit.
Nohbody
topic
10:21:04 AM Aug 20th 2013
With the main page at 399486 characters long as of this post, it's time to split the tropes list into smaller segments, so as to not break things for the server (things get screwy at 400k, and outright break at 500k).

Given there's still more books to go, my first inclination (out of laziness :P ) for a 50/50 split isn't really practical. However, Nocturna recommends 3-4 subpages in this post, which sounds like a better idea.

So, how should we split it?
  • Three subpages results in abcdefgh ijklmnop qrstuvwxyz
  • Four subpages gives us abcdef ghijkl mnopqr stuvwxyz

(Yes, misuse of bullet points as paragraphs, so sue me. :P )
MattStriker
07:59:57 AM Aug 21st 2013
Regarding the three-subpage solution: It looks like a-h is about 50% of the page, with the other two being roughly 25% each. I'd need to do some word-counting to be sure, but it looks like the four-subpage version would yield a slightly more even distribution.
RoseAndHeather
05:28:57 PM Sep 9th 2013
I'll throw my vote behind the four-subpage idea. This trope list is only going to get longer, so anything that guarantees more even distribution is a great idea by me.

I was also wondering if maybe splitting off all the book descriptions/summaries to their own page might not be a bad plan?
Nohbody
08:55:53 AM Sep 10th 2013
Regarding the descriptions/summaries, perhaps the main Literature.Honor Harrington should be that and the trope subpage indexes, with A-H being on its own page instead of on Literature/?

Without looking I think having the first trope cluster as its own page instead of part of the main work trope indexing page is how Babylon 5 does things, ditto The Order of the Stick.
RoseAndHeather
09:07:26 PM Sep 11th 2013
edited by 65.27.97.229
The only worry I have is that there are a lot of books in this series, and there are only going to be more, so splitting off the book descriptions would allow those who are interested to go find it, while making people scroll through a lot less to get to the actual trope subpages. The Literature page wouldn't exactly be tiny even just with a description of the series premise as a whole, or if you think we should have a little more detail, general descriptions of the various subseries.

Otherwise, I'm behind this plan 100%.
Nohbody
06:11:59 AM Nov 18th 2013
Ok, since no one else stepped up and the page was over 460k characters, I did the split using the 4-way. Tropes transferred to the new pages and indexing is done, taking care of custom titling issues now.
Robrecht
topic
08:54:40 PM Jul 3rd 2013
I'm not sure whether this fits under Artistic License - Economics or something else but...

Haven. It's purposely built as a failed economy, but it's built 'too well'. The page currently notes that Haven is an in universe example, but Weber is arguably a much bigger one in real life: If only 10% of the population is working, then how's all the food, medication, housing, clothing and other basic necessities that the population requires still getting produced? What about all the services and luxuries that the non-working 90% are spending their generous BLS on?

If all that stuff isn't actually getting produced, then the additional expenditures of invading individual neighboring planets to raid their economies would not actually fix that problem unless they're specifically invading world with a proportionally ridiculous focus on producing said necessities, services and luxuries (and they're not. They're raiding the newly conquered worlds' 'economies', not their food stores.)

If all that stuff is still getting produced, then 90% of the population not working would not, in fact, be a drain on the economy, because apparently those 90% wouldn't be able to get jobs any way, since everything the society requires to function is still getting produced with only 10% of the population working and at least some of those 10% working in the military and bureaucracy (and thus producing nothing).

Also, with only 10% of the population working at all, Haven has still been able, since the start of this 'solution', to maintain military forces capable of steam rolling over it's neighbors (despite, you know, the fact that on those planets more than the usual percentage of people would get involved in an armed resistance), enforcing some kind of policy that completely drains said planet of it's economic capabilities and policing it after its capture... And it can still stand up to the Manties and the Andies throughout.

Haven's economy is a case of Artistic License not just in-universe, mainly because Weber treats economies as if they're only about money in the abstract, rather than what that money represents. Haven's 'economy' might be able to sustain itself on the money it gets from other planets, but unless the Havenites have evolved the ability to eat, drink, wear, drive, fight disease with and live in currency, that doesn't really solve the question of how 90% of the population is able to live comfortable enough lives that they wouldn't want to work or get educated at all, rather than realistically being in a perpetual state of starvation and disease.

(And that's without even getting into the utterly fucked up, and mostly United States-based, idea any significant part of any population would be content to sit on its ass and do nothing if they receive welfare and that people 'require' welfare benefits to be less than minimum wage in order to be motivated to work. As someone who's been on a rather generous disability stipend and who wasn't actually required by law to go find a job, but did, I kinda find that entire notion really insulting.)

So yeah, I notice that this has led to minor edit wars in the past. Is there any objection now if I add that Haven's situation is Artistic License - Economics out-of-universe as well, because Weber treats economies as being only about money in an abstract sense?
Nohbody
04:36:00 AM Jul 4th 2013
I don't know, can you condense that to something less than an essay for complaining about Weber's politics, while keeping in mind that he's hardly the only fiction book author to adjust the setting to tell the story he wants to tell?
Robrecht
07:48:17 AM Jul 4th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
Only the bit in parentheses towards the end was me complaining about Weber's politics.

The rest is just me pointing out the two different ways in which Haven's economy doesn't make sense beyond the way Weber intentionally made it make no sense.

Essentially Weber picked too low a percentage to be realistic when he picked how much of Haven's population was in the workforce, because he was looking at Economies as being only about money, not about the goods that that money goes towards purchasing. It would be Scifi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale, but that doesn't have a subpage for demographics.

Here's what it's like shortened down then:

With only 10% of the population actually working and enough of those in the bureaucracy and military to make conquering planets and administering them feasible, but no mention of actual shortages of goods and no mention of the BLS being too low to afford any of those goods, Haven's real issue would be that it is a post-scarcity economy whose government treats its money as if it isn't.
Nohbody
03:55:18 PM Jul 4th 2013
Is it actually post-scarcity, though? While some things can be done via nanomachines, what little has been covered of production in the Honorverse still requires people, and while resources are far more available than in RL it's not "might as well be free".

As for the workforce percentage, I'm pretty sure it wasn't said to start out at that point, and for a polity whose economic power (prior to becoming the People's Republic of Haven) rivaled that of the Solarian League (which has, what, 80% of all of humanity's total population? I forget the number, but it's ridiculously huge) there's plenty of leeway to slip to where the PRH was shown as being at as of the first few books of the series, especially after essentially sucker-punching smaller polities in the region who didn't have the economic performance or desire to build up large navies that could have given the PRN a serious bellyache, and basically looting the economies of those conquered star nations.
Nohbody
topic
10:10:38 AM Apr 16th 2013
Removed Word Cruft, fixed Example Indentation, made spoiler adjustments, Bold Inflation deflated, and assorted other stuff:

(and note to self, left off at N-Word Privileges)
3of4
topic
10:57:44 AM Apr 14th 2013
Should we list the Anthology's on the page? And what about the forthcoming companion books?
MattStriker
06:40:47 PM Apr 14th 2013
Hmm, a mention of the anthologies and 'background' books wouldn't be a bad idea, yeah.
3of4
02:44:18 PM Apr 20th 2013
Have added them...may be a bit long and overly detailed, though.
MattStriker
topic
04:34:31 PM Apr 2nd 2013
Tracer added this example to Meaningful Name:

  • "Mesan" can be pronounced like "Mason." Both the Mesans in-universe, and the Freemasons in Real Life, stand accused of secretly manipulating whole governments behind the scenes.

I'm...not sure if that works. At the very least, it's kinda...reaching, unless there's some Word of God stating that this was intentional.

So...leave it in or cut it?
FastEddie
moderator
04:42:29 PM Apr 2nd 2013
Well, historical institutions and nations are pretty heavily used with the serial numbers rubbed off. The analogs of Britain and France are pretty plain. It is a reasonable guess that the Mesan/Mason thing is not too far fetched.
Wheedle
topic
06:27:14 AM Feb 27th 2013
In Shout Outs, I'm pretty sure Director Vincent Stone is a reference to Oliver Stone. King Clinton III and Chancellor Walter Ford are also references to previous presidents of the USA.
AFP
topic
05:56:42 AM Jan 4th 2013
edited by AFP
I'm thinking the prequel stories about Stephanie Harrington would be best served on a separate page, given the lack of significant overlap in the storylines, and the fact that the main Honor Harrington series and the Stephanie Harrington books appear to be marketed to different audiences to boot. This way, tropes specific to the prequels can get their own page without expecting someone reading a Young Adult novel to have worked their way through 15 volumes of the main story first.
AFP
09:26:27 PM Jan 16th 2013
Went ahead and did it (lack of objection is the same as consensus, right?).
AFP
08:22:51 AM Oct 14th 2013
And now, I'm wondering if I should rename the page to "Star Kingdom" as that seems to be the name the books are being marketed under, or make it a redirect, or leave it alone or what.
RoseAndHeather
11:03:37 AM Oct 14th 2013
Honestly, I think 'Stephanie Harrington' is just fine. 'Star Kingdom' may be the official marketing title, but not only does 'Stephanie Harrington' parallel the marketing title of the main series, but how many people (aside from the true hardcores) either know or care that they're not called the Stephanie Harrington books?
AFP
09:25:10 PM Jun 4th 2014
So, once the "Manticore Ascendant" books start rolling out this fall (as it looks like Travis Tea's series will be called), we can just create another Literature entry for it and direct folks to add tropes there. Not really much reason to create it yet, unless we want to start troping the unholy hell out of the one short story in that particular setting.
MattStriker
topic
11:46:15 AM Oct 28th 2012
Would the Medusans count as Starfish Aliens? They effectively combine traits of mammals (metabolism and reproduction), arthropod (locomotion and general 'mantis-like' appearance) and...well, starfish (radial symmetry, although tri- rather than pentamerous)...
AFP
09:00:23 PM Jan 4th 2013
edited by AFP
I think it fits, actually. They're tri-radial, as I recall, and I don't think they can communicate directly with humans without some sort of Universal Translator, but it's been years since I read On Baselisk Station.
MattStriker
topic
03:26:00 AM Aug 12th 2012
Those 'Southern Drawl' accents of various Manticoran nobles like Oversteegen (and rather less heroic examples) keep vanishing when the character in question is seriously upset about something.

Does this count as Ooh, Me Accent's Slipping?
JBK405
09:03:23 AM Aug 12th 2012
No, that's an acting trope, not a character/story trope.

I think Accent Relapse is the closest to what you're going for, but isn't exact.
GentlemensDame883
topic
09:21:14 AM Jun 17th 2012
The inability to cross the theta band was held as sacrosanct for centuries before the streak drive did it in. I'd think shattering a centuries-old conception would be sufficient to qualify for Beyond the Impossible?
JBK405
09:34:34 AM Jun 17th 2012
Except that the Beyond the Impossible page specifically says that doing something through Applied Phlebotinum is not Beyondthe Impossible so...well, there it is.

Right now it just looks like the trope is a mess; I really can't think of what it is meant to cover.
Meshakhad
topic
11:18:56 AM Jun 8th 2012
I was going to alter the Fantasy Counterpart Culture entry, but I thought the issue merited discussion.

Obviously, the Manticore System is based on Great Britain. Manticore itself is England, but the parallels for Sphinx and Gryphon are harder to pin down. The current parallels are Scotland and Ireland, respectively, but I see them as Wales and Scotland. Gryphon is more distant, not to mention has its own highlanders, while Sphinx is close to Manticore, but more rugged.

Is there any strong objection to my proposed changes?
JBK405
01:21:54 PM Jun 8th 2012
The problem is not any fault with your particular logic, but that it's your (Or anybody's) logic. These aren't supposed to be our theories or interpretation, it's supposed to be what the author's deliberately going for. If there hasn't been some sort of explicit comparison (The use of German as a language for the Anderman Empire, or Benjamin explicitly comparing Grayson to Japan, for example) I'm uncomfortable putting any sort of "He's probably going for..." note in there. Gryphon citizens have been called 'highlanders,' but anything for Ireland or Wales is speculatory.

I'd rather take out almost the entire note and just leave "The Stark Kingdom of Manticore is Britain, with Manticore itself as England" because those comparisons have been crystal clear and are not up for debate.
kufat
topic
04:00:15 PM Apr 18th 2012
I'm thinking of removing all of the But Not Too Black entries from the Characters page. It seems to me that the trope is about racist implications rather than simply having mixed ancestry, and that the latter is what's present in-story. (With the obvious exception of Oversteegen and Du Havel's historical discussion, which is...a historical discussion.) Any thoughts?
JBK405
05:41:09 PM Apr 18th 2012
I try to avoid character pages when I can, but you're corect that it's a trope about racial portrayal and casting, not just people of mixed ancestry. if all the tropes are "Person has a lot of different genes" then I don't see how it fits.
Khathi
topic
11:14:54 AM Jan 2nd 2012
Nohbody, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the YMMV tab the part of the more "discussion-friendly" side of this wiki? I was under the impression that it is, and so find your relentless anti-natter crusade somewhat excessive in this case.
MrDeath
06:42:21 AM Jan 3rd 2012
No, it's not. There's no discussion on trope-listing pages. Discussions are for the Discussion pages and possibly the Headscratchers pages.
Khathi
02:43:02 AM Jan 5th 2012
edited by Khathi
Why it's on a blue background then, just like Headcratchers and WMG tabs? It's rather misleading IMO, and we ought to do something about this inconsistency.
Seonor
topic
02:55:24 PM Oct 30th 2011
The planet Beowulf (where Honor's mother comes from) seems to me to be a shout-out to the books "The Legacy of Heorot" and "Beowulf's Children" by Larry Niven.

In the books clonists build the first extraplanetary colony on the planet Avalon after a hundred year flight in cryostasis(Beowolf is the first colony in the Honorverse, the first settlers also came in sleeperships). They find a native predetor and call it Grendel, later they discover the species is intelligent (Beowulf has an intelligent native species called Gremlins). One of the leaders of the colony is married to two women (Beowulf has very open standarts). One of humans born on Avalon went crazy and tried to take over, which the other colonists atributed to him grown in a tube and thus lacking family bonds (people from Beowolf prefer natural births).

Am I only seeing random simularities, or is this a shout-out?
JBK405
05:03:27 PM Oct 30th 2011
Wiki policy is that for something to be a Shout-Out the idea is that it has to be explicit, so you know it's a Shout-Out; rule of thumb is that if you're not sure then it probably isn't. Has there been any sort of Word of God comment on this?

Personally, I see Beowful as inspired by Beta from the Vorkosigan Saga (Sexually liberal, headof the life sciences, origin of the Uterine Replicator, etc.)
Seonor
11:44:54 PM Oct 30th 2011
I am sure it is a Shout Out, the problem is that I sometimes see simularities other do not see so is seems to me better to check with others what they think.

And Beta has no native intellient species, also the name of the planet is a direct reference to the Niven books.
JBK405
07:11:16 AM Oct 31st 2011
Well, I never said it was a perfect similarity....

I haven't read "Beowulf's Children," so I can't really comment on whether or not the two planets are similar enough to count as a Shout-Out.
AFP
topic
11:00:31 PM Sep 19th 2011
The Unwitting Pawn entry describes Manticore and Haven as playing into the bad guys' hands as of the end of Mission of Honor. Except that I'm pretty sure that their alliance was never part of the plan at all. Mesa wanted the two biggest players after the Solarian League to be distracted fighting each other while they made their move. A united Haven Sector does not seem to have been part of their plans.
Westrim
11:27:47 PM Sep 19th 2011
What Unwitting Pawn entry? *whistles innocently*
JBK405
07:17:45 AM Sep 20th 2011
I've re-added with a significant trim to avoid this particular issue, since whether they're being pawns now they certainly have been in the past.
Khathi
topic
08:47:50 PM Aug 7th 2011
edited by Khathi
Regarding this: I don't see the irony here, or how it applies to the Author Appeal trope (In fact, what's already here doesn't fit, either. It takes more than just being a key feature of the series to be an Author Appeal)

Well, the irony might be a Your Mileage May Vary thing, but the appeal in my opinion ir hard to doubt. The political intrigue gradually takes larger and larger place in the plot as the series progresses, until it could be called less a Military Science-Fiction and more a political triller. If that's not an Author Appeal, given Weber's personal interest in history and politics, then what is?
JBK405
08:58:40 PM Aug 7th 2011
edited by JBK405
"A kind of Fanservice where the presence of a particular gimmick or kink is so widespread and prominent that it is interpreted as a specific reason the creator actually produced the work" or "Writers write stuff they like into their stories, no matter how esoteric or kinky it is."

The politics of the Honorverse isn't a gimmick or kink, and isn't the least bit esoteric, but is part of the basic framework of the story even back in the beginning On Basilisk Station. I'm not saying it isn't obviously an appeal that David Weber has, but that it doesn't count as an Author Appeal. The trope refers to when an author keeps inserting the same thing (Whether it be a character type, common reference, source of humor, etc.) into their various works just because they like that thing and not because it's necessary to the story; the politics here is the story.

It'd be like listing "space" as George Lucas's author appeal or "spies" for Ian Fleming. Those aren't personal preferences that they force into their works (Well, except maybe the aliens in Crystal Skull), but are just the basic parts of their stories.

The politics certainly has expanded in the past few novels to where it's almost taken over, but that's just a shift in story focus, not him trying to add somethig new or extra to a plot that doesn't need it (I'm not saying I wouldn't prefer a return to his earlier style, I've grown weary of reading the Battle of Manticore from a different perspective in every frelling new book, just that this is still a part of the same story).
Khathi
10:49:09 PM Aug 10th 2011
Okay, point taken.
Robrecht
01:11:16 PM Oct 11th 2011
JBK, the point may be taken but that doesn't make it accurate.

'Space' is not George Lucas' author appeal, that's correct, but the romantic subplots, sword fights and samurai-esque Jedi philosophy certainly ARE author appeal, which is why the prequels feature these far more than the original trilogy. Likewise, spies aren't Ian Fleming's author appeal, but the way he lovingly describes Bond having lunch and dinner certainly are.

And Author Appeal does not have anything to do with whether or not something matters to the story, it just means the author keeps including something because he or she likes it. Which is exactly what Weber does when it comes to politics. It doesn't have to be disruptive or obsessive or negative in any other way.

You seem to desire that people not mention this rather obvious case of Author Appeal, just because you have negative associations with the trope. This, however, is your problem.
Deboss
topic
01:52:05 PM Jun 1st 2011
Okay, who left:
  • Strawman Has a Point: In Service Of The Sword, Captain Oversteegan, a swaggering aristocrat if there ever was one, orders Midshipman Hearns to make contact with a colony of Space Amish to ask them a few questions about some disappeared shipping. Hearns takes offense, thinking that he is sending her just because she is also from a planet considered by many to be a bunch of Space Amish* . When she takes her complaint to Captain Oversteegan's second-in-command, the Commander points out that her background does make her the most qualified officer on board to perform that mission.

On the page? I don't think that's what Strawman Has a Point means, even if it's invoked.

Also, are all those Straw entries accurate?
J
topic
10:18:49 AM Oct 18th 2010
I changed Ramidel's Face-Heel Turn entry, since I feel that even though the High Ridge Government is certainly villainous, "Manticore as a whole" remained a protagonist faction. I've left the entry in place, but I'm not sure it really fits. Is there another trope that would fit better?
Nohbody
02:40:34 PM Oct 18th 2010
FHT doesn't really apply. High Ridge and his fellow goons have been depicted as opportunistic, self-centered shitheads of the lowest order pretty much from the beginning. There wasn't a "face" to turn from. I'm cutting that entry.

As for what would fit better, not sure off the top of my head. What is there in the way of "corrupt government" tropes? Serious question.
J
10:29:18 AM Oct 19th 2010
I've found three that apply to various degree: Obstructive Bureaucrat, President Corrupt, and Sleazy Politician.
Nohbody
02:16:25 PM Oct 19th 2010
All of those look like they'd cover the HR government as a whole (and PC for HR himself).
121.98.156.105
topic
02:33:25 AM Oct 11th 2010
edited by pidge
Catch Phrase - I pretty sure "let's be about it" occurs much less frequently that "I see", which nearly all of the characters are afflicted with.

[editted to provide my handle]
J
09:17:54 AM Oct 11th 2010
I don't think that really counts as a "catchphrase" as such.
MrDeath
02:54:08 PM Oct 18th 2010
If "I see" counts as a catchphrase, so does "the" and "Hello". It's just something you say to acknowledge a thought. Catch Phrase isn't about volume, it's about significance.
Michael
topic
08:19:33 AM Sep 17th 2010
edited by Michael
So, seemingly there is a game in development. Does anyone know anything more than the smattering of info present on http://www.honorverse.com ?
Nohbody
08:26:46 AM Sep 17th 2010
There really isn't anything else available on it, AFAIK. Until there's actually something along the lines of "we're releasing on [X] date", it's probably best to treat it as vaporware, as far as TV Tropes pages go.
67.149.156.114
topic
03:02:35 PM Jul 21st 2010
After reading Mission of Honor I want to add the following text but I'm not sure which trope to file it under, maybe Fridge Brilliance? Numerous times throughout the series ships go to Maximum Military Power, where it is noted there is a 3% chance of their Inertial Dampening spontaneously failing. Yet this never happens, nor is it ever mentioned as having happened off-screen. The latest book explains this by noting that the RMN has decided its safety margins were more cautious than they had to be.
Lilwik
09:45:22 PM Jul 21st 2010
I can't think of any tropes where that fits, but I am sure that it's not Fridge Brilliance.
TheAntiTed
03:56:52 PM Sep 23rd 2010
Well, it's basic engineering, which many sci-fi authors seem to miss. No one ever designs something potentially hazardous to be operated right up to its failure point; you always set a margin of safety some "distance" from the point of no return for the casualty you are concerned about. Even the most extreme, emergency use of the system will still have some margin of error built into it.

As an aside, compensator failure has happened at least twice in the books that I'm aware of... First, an intentional sabotage of a compensator was used as an assassination tool against a Pre-Elizabeth II Manticoran monarch—I think it was in one of the short story compilations. Second, more recently in Torch of Freedom, one of Admiral Roszak's ships suffer compensator failure as a result of battle damage while defending Torch.
Nohbody
04:20:05 PM Sep 23rd 2010
edited by Nohbody
Weber's short story "What Price Dreams?" in the anthology Worlds of Honor is where the sabotaged compensators are mentioned, for the record, killing Roger II's wife, Queen Consort Solange.
67.149.102.170
01:06:16 PM Sep 25th 2010
Anti Ted: Ships have their compensators fail due to battle damage now and then, but the way it's worded in the books seems to imply that just going to maximum power, 1 in 25 ships will spontaneously suffer compensator failure. It just seemed odd to me that captains and admirals kept worrying about it as a real possibility when it never happened any of the dozens of times over the course of the series that someone went to maximum power. So it was nice in Mission of Honor for them to realize "huh, apparently the setting we used as max (because everyone knew that even that much is dangerous) is actually well within the *real* safety margins."
AFP
11:17:06 PM Jun 12th 2014
If nothing else, it would make more sense if there was also a stated risk of damaging something short of actually destroying it outright. Increased wear and tear of the hardware (which would in turn increase the chance of failure farther down the line), something like that.
Lilwik
topic
09:12:06 PM Apr 13th 2010
edited by Lilwik
I've been trying to add a note to the Space Is an Ocean entry but I can't seem to get the wording right. The point is that in real space speed counts for nothing, unless you are trying to intercept something or run away from something. If you are just flying alone through space, speed is meaningless. That's how it works in real life, but the Honorverse measures speed against some sort of ether that its ships sail through, exactly like ocean ships do. Or else they measure speed against the stars and planets, which we have to supposed are fixed in place like islands in an ocean for that measurement to be meaningful. And then there is the .8c limit that comes from requiring shielding against particles in space. That only makes sense if the particles are sitting around waiting for you to hit them so that your speed determines how hard you get hit and how frequently, very much like flying through a thin mist. Of course, in real life the particles in space are zipping in all different directions, so going fast relative to one particle is going slow relative to another, and you really have no control over how much you get hit. It's obviously just a handwave in order to put a cap on the ship's speeds to make it more like sailing. So how do we add something about that without it being edited away?
elfey
10:41:24 PM Apr 13th 2010
Because you measure it to the system primary. Yeah sure it's relative, but inside the heliopause most particles are going to be moving out at the speed of solar wind. Sure, when you leave earth and accelerate relative your home up to .8C it's just picking a frame of reference, and is arbitrary. But, the thing is everything happens around stars with that being the common frame of reference, as the Sun itself is important to be traveling relative towards to reach hyper. It is designed to give space is an ocean, but none of this usually matters because acceleration is more imporant, as that lets you dodge, and everything is always ziging.
pcawley1964
07:24:52 AM Apr 28th 2010
In the books, speed is used to determine time to get from point a to b, so it is relevant, but secondary. It is only measured either relative to the local star (which has it's own 'velocity' thru the universe), or relative to the speed of light, which is a constant. Acceleration is the true measure of a ship's ability to maneuver, as you rightly stated. The 0.8c thing has to with the relative velocities of the particles in space (Space is not a vacuum, just very very thin, one atom per cubic kilometer is still stuff that you have to pass thru.) Traveling at 0.8c causes you to his a lot of these particles. The odds of having one particle moving in one direction at a high velocity are the same as the odds of a particle moving in the exact opposite direction and velocity so you have to treat the particles as standing still. This will cause a lot of radiation which is detrimental to human life. Add that to the normal radiation of space, add in a safety factor and you get the limit. This limit does not apply to missiles.
Lilwik
02:19:53 PM May 2nd 2010
You measure the speed of one object relative to another object, usually how fast it is moving toward yourself or away from yourself. You can't measure one speed relative to another speed as if substituting a speed for an object. In real life you can't know how close to the speed of light you are without having another object for comparison.

There is no 'standing still' in real space, only in space as an ocean. Is the Sun moving very fast or standing still? The question is completely meaningless because there is nothing we can use to measure its speed from in the vast empty void. It is impossible to treat real space particles as standing still for the same reason because you can't even know what 'standing still' means; you can't know how fast your ship is moving except by comparing it to other things, and those things might also be moving and throwing off your calculations.

The concept of a sea of space particles that are effectively standing still is just one of Honor Harrington's Space Is an Ocean quirks.
elfey
05:25:22 PM May 2nd 2010
You can pick a frame of reference. There isn't some universal one sure, but there are those relative toward a system's star. Say you pop into Sol at the hyperwall, you're inside the heliopause and the amount of dust and wind is of a different density. While individual dust motes are moving at random speeds outside the heliopause, there's a group velocity within the heliopause and the dust is actually less dense. The dust outside the heliopause has a different group velocity do the the way space works. Now that group velocity I'm measuring either from the system primary of Sol, or relative toward the center of the galaxy.

Individual micro meteors and particles will go faster or slower. Group velocity just describes the average velocity.

Now on to the speed of light issue, yeah you don't know how fast you're doing unless you measure it via an outside source. But there are sources to measure. The sun is moving relative to us (and we're moving relative toward it). The galaxy is also moving. Using a moving reference frame is nothing new, and you can use to explain the .8C limitation. Around a star, particles are being emitted as solarwind at a certain speed relative toward the star. That gives an ability to calculate the energy of them. Honorverse tech allows protection up until they start moving at .8c relative toward the sun.

If it were true deep space yes, it's completely arbitrary, but the speed limits only come up around a star when there's something that only gives a frame of reference, but is the source of most of the harm.
Lilwik
09:30:18 PM May 2nd 2010
I now admit that I made some assumptions about space that were not as well founded as I thought they were. Perhaps solar wind emissions make up the bulk of particles in space, and those particles travel at mere hundreds of kilometers per second relative to the stars, and the stars themselves aren't moving hugely fast relative to each other thanks to an orbit around the galaxy. So maybe real life space is like a sea of mixing solar emissions, and if you tried to move between stars at hundreds of thousands of kilometers per second then the particles would seem to be standing still relative to the stars, and you would have to shield yourself against them. That doesn't make the Honorverse less like an ocean, but if correct it does make real life surprisingly like an ocean.
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