Pokémon anime

Filling out the Pokedex is one of those things that doesn't even make sense in the games to begin with. Why has no one else in the entire Pokemon world gone and done something that you'd think would be as basic knowledge as, like, encyclopedia entries on animal species? And the fact that you'll end up stuffing your PC with Pokemon you'll likely never use goes against the whole friendship thing pretty bad. It's no surprise the adaptations usually ignore it (unless they're Special, but Special is a bucket of diarrhea). It pretty much just exists as a gameplay goal.

Plus, the show has made mention of Ash wanting to meet as many different Pokemon as he can for the experience, thus covering the only part of the catch-'em-all thing that actually means much of anything while leaving out the questionable elements... nothing more needs to be done.

Its hard to believe we're in 2015 and people are still complaining about the same aspects of the Pokemon anime since 1998. Either its a new generation of kids over and over or its the same old 20-30 year old adults who complain over and over again about the same things.

The anime has been running for 17 years with almost the same formula since day 1 with a few alterations here and there. I think by now everyone knows the anime will never change. Either accept the show for what it is or move on.

edited 26th Jan '15 5:45:59 PM by precita

While I don't think the show should be immune from criticism just because "it'll never change", I broadly agree. There are things it could do better even without changing the formula, but a lot of what's complained about is a Necessary Weasel of the sort of show it is- both being a long-runner kid's show that's trying to remain somewhat stable (keeping Ash and Pikachu around and such) and an adaptation of a game series that doesn't put much thought into the story logic part of things.

To put it another way- stop being so surprised :P

BW was just a BAD season, and Iris seemed to take the brunt of the blame for it (Cilan oddly was immune to this). I guess she's just a bad memory of the worst part of BW (Ash being almost comically made an idiot, even worse than before as Iris's constant calling him a kid reminded everyone of this)

This isn't just angry old fanboy rants either since ratings took a nosedive, even in Japan, and XY seemed to try to reverse the stuff BW on almost every level.

Ratings didn't drop any faster during BW than they did before, as far as I can tell. Though it is true that they started climbing again with XY.

I wish they had kept competent Team Rocket, but that's what happens when such a big change happens in what is apparently the worst season.

If they had tried it at any other time.....

It's more that Japan loves the sillier Team Rocket. The competent one was nowhere near popular. It wasn't a specific season thing. I loved the BW season myself. It had fun characters, great battles, fairly good music, and although Cameron was awful(Burgundy was kind of annoying too), it was a pretty fun season for me. I didn't enjoy D/P nearly as much(although it did have great music too. But most of the seasons do).

I'm still dumbfounded as to why the West seems to hate Virgil so much - he's really no different from most any League winner, yet for some reason the Yanks seem to hate him more than bloody Cameron... why? Because he's Merchandise-Driven? That's absolutely no shocker at all. Because his Eevee is OP? So was Tyson's Meowth, yet nobody ever had issue with that - its battle with Pikachu (who people also like being OP half the time, unless he's hogging screen-time) was actually considered quite good. Because Virgil was wasted, his Eevee not evolving to Sylveon and its OP winning move in the League was rushed into (rather than getting a fuller battle)? Well, that was BW in a nutshell - the tourney battles were often skimmed over even before this.

Yet people hate him more than Cameron (who takes all the worst aspects of previous Ash-beaters in the show - barring Tobias' legendaries team) and ate up perfectly good screen-time? Please... All that's missing is a fanfic where he never meets Ash at the end of the Junior Cup, and thus appears once as a gag trying to register in the League with 7 badges.

As for DP, it's the last Season which I've got on DVD - I'd get the others, but it's No Export for You regarding subbed versions (and I'm just disillusioned about the changes the dub makes, especially the wholly-unnecessary music changes). When are they going to release full sets with both the Japanese and English versions of the show?

edited 26th Jan '15 8:21:14 PM by CaellachTigerEye

It does seem like people who don't like Iris feel that way because of how she treated Ash in the anime. I didn't much care for how she would say things like "kodomo ne" or "such a kid". I don't know much of what she said in the English version, because I watch Pokemon in Japanese.

But nobody is perfect, and I like a lot of her personality. I like how she feels like just as much of a trainer as Satoshi or Ash.

I like Iris in the anime because I like her in the games. Because I love how much she cares about being a strong Pokemon trainer. And I like her personality in ways that are hard to explain. I remember watching the first episode where Satoshi met Iris, and she hugged Pikachu because he was so cute. She had a kind of "hug all the cats" moment, except with cute Pokemon. And she reminded me of me.

And I was like, "I really like Iris. She's the best and makes the anime and the game so much better." She seems very strong yet kind. Even though she does things sometimes that are a little bit insensitive. And she isn't as strong in the anime as in the games. She seems like one of the strongest of Satoshi's companions. To be, she seems the strongest. But I admit, I'm kind of biased. ^^;;

But that's why I like Iris, I think.

I don't mind silly team rocket.

Why can't they be silly and competent? Have them alternate between getting blown up, and getting away. Let them pull some smooth moves and all that, and remind us they can be a real threat.

Have them come out on top every now and again. There's room for both.

I think Cilan gets an easy pass because Brock had gotten so stale by the end of DP that people just found it refreshing that Brock was gone for the first time since like...2001? I mean we got stuck with Brock from the beginning of Johto to the end of DP...3 sagas in a row.

Also the male companion usually is less important than the female, so its not a big deal if they're developed less. Although the writers are putting more effort into Clemont than the other characters so far which is refreshing.

Although I am not a fan of hating on characters, even ones I don't particularly like. I have no clue how some people can literally sit there posting seething hatred for characters in a show as if they're real people. Even characters intended to be hated (like villains who do something horrible), don't really deserve the amount of bizarre volatile people can throw towards a character.

I think the people who sit there fuming hate toward characters in any show must have low self esteem in real life that they're literally sitting there getting bothered by a fictional character that doesn't exist.

Dude. You just expressed my thoughts on pretty much every one in the Naruto Fandom and their hate for Sasuke (Mostly Part 1, Part 2 Sasuke is much harder to sympathizes with). Particularly when it crosses over into the hypocritical in fanfics where they make Naruto into a bigger dick then Sasuke ever was.

I might dislike characters and I might complain about them from time to time, but I wouldn't let that hate dominate me or my feelings for the show much less my life for that matter.

edited 27th Jan '15 1:20:28 AM by WorldTurtle2

Word, guys.

There's also a difference between in-character jerkishness, and when you do it just because you don't like the character. If you're going to make them worse than they were in canon, at least provide a justification in-story for it - have something that sends them further down the slippery slope, give them a worse backstory, SOME-thing! The "Naruto", "Harry Potter" and other particularly large fandoms are infamous for this - making characters the author dislikes one-dimensional and boring just because they can't be bothered to do the bloody research; never mind that it would strengthen their plot and characters if they did so... At least Iris, from what I've seen, is mostly treated as annoying rather than a horrible person - which I think is largely the point. If you can put aside irritating occasions like the crossdressing episode (do we really want to promote the mentality that the level of vindictiveness she displays is OK, writers?), she's a fine character conceptually at least - she was just handled sloppily.

Well this is the pokemon fandom, people in this fandom dislike characters for petty reasons.

Even to this day there are Misty fans who refuse to watch any of the Pokemon anime after Johto, and think the Pokemon anime shouldn't have continued after Misty left. They got away with those rants for a few years because back then there weren't that many sagas after Misty left yet....but now that we're 4 generations and 12 years later? They look ridiculous.

I can understand getting bored of the anime and outgrowing it overtime, but the way the Misty fandom seriously believed the Pokemon anime couldn't have continued without Misty was baffling. Its almost as if they believed Misty was some kind of vital character like Ash/Pikachu and couldn't have left. I wouldn't have cared if they weren't so vocal about it on pokemon forums over the last decade, constantly hating on every character after Misty left.

Another game-related issue that people overlook when criticizing the anime is Ash not winning a league. The Game League (where its just Elite Four/Champion) is a lot easier then the Anime League (which is like a 8 Round Tournament). In the Games you have stuff like Potions, Antidotes, and Revives to keep your Pokemon in the fight. In the Anime you don't get any of that. Not to mention if you lose in the Games you can just try again right away.

Tell me how much flak the anime gets do you think is just people overlooking the differences between it and the games?

edited 27th Jan '15 10:28:20 AM by WorldTurtle2

That's not really the issue, at least it's not mine anyway.

My problem with Ash never winning isn't because its "different from the games" but rather, the writers feel like they're getting lazy with him losing. I was fine with him losing to Harrison and Tyson as those were very close battles and both combatants looked strong, Ash looked good despite going down and his opposition felt worthy of beating him.

Afterward? It's pretty damn clear they just have him lose just so he'll have an excuse to move on to the next region. Tobias has no real relationship or connection to Ash beside just being the guy who beat him, Harrison and Tyson at least had some prior characterization and an episode with Ash before they faced off in the league. Cameron wouldn't be so bad if the writers didn't overly emphasize how much of a dumbass he was and yet he still beats Ash despite there being no logical reasoning for him to do so.

I don't mind Ash losing in a league, I do however have an issue when the writers obviously contrive an incredibly dumb and ludicrous reasoning to do so. If you're not let him win, at least let him lose convincingly.

I can agree with that. As long as he goes down swinging and not like a chump I'm fine with it.

Exactly - Ritchie was the same, really. Struck by Early-Installment Weirdness, for sure (Squirtle being asleep = KO? Charizard being a dick?), but at least they were trying then. And given it was early days it was more forgivable - Harrison and Tyson built on that. It is after that point, with Tobias (Diabolus ex Machina FTW!) and Cameron (Idiot Houdini ahoy!), that it's looking dreadful. Which is why Virgil would have been forgivable IMO - he's actually a competent trainer and would have given Ash a good battle, which Cameron didn't do.

With regard to Fanservice, yeah, Iris wasn't that good about it, especially not in the way her predecessors did, but I didn't see that as a bad thing. The problem was that when Bianca came into the picture, they had to redistribute the traits with the Cuteness Proximity going to the latter, leaving Iris with just the Hypocritical Humor and babying Axew plus a Harmony With Nature that didn't get much of a chance to shine.

Conversely, however, Serena hasn't been really showing that sort of fanservice either, Fennekin costume aside. In fact, I have to say that Bonnie has been providing more fanservice, albeit of a more age-appropriate sort. Again, Iris had her nature traits to fall back on; up to the Performance Arc, all Serena had was her inexperience, which allowed Ash to retain the experience he usually loses. And as most don't see that, Serena was thought to have the same problem as Misty.

That being said, conflating the different versions of a character (e.g. Anime!N with Game!N with Special!N) is not good form, especially in light of the "Delta Episode" of Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire: given that each published game is now its own alternate universe, it follows that each adaptation may be an AU as well. Which is why many of the positive vibes Iris got from other characters felt like shilling based on the fact that Game!Iris became the Champion in the sequel games: Anime!Iris was using cred she didn't seem to earn herself, her performance in the Club Tourneys notwithstanding.^note This is why I often feel like punching something whenever I hear someone refer to Anime!Iris and pre-journey Anime!Misty as Gym Leaders. Of course, the games don't help any by inserting Adaptation-based Mythology Gags, such as one in the aforementioned "Delta Episode" to the Mega Specials.

Rob: Whaddaya mean we can't have both silly and competent Team Rocket? To an extent, we have that now! Or at least we have the best of both worlds: i.e. the silliness doesn't get in the way of their competence. Sure, they've downgraded into small-time plots, and their motives are sometimes quite petty, (though part of that is them having to be in every non-Gym episode as opposed to being part of a Rogues Gallery,) but sometimes they aren't and they still are as deliberate in their execution as they were in Best Wishes, even though they are "blasted Off" as much as outside of that arc. I mean, Jessie wanting Fennekin was somewhat petty, but they executed well and even posed a threat; they just underestimated Pancham's Honor and Serena's Determination. And them splitting up to draw off the elder twerps in a feint so that James could catch Lapras was excellent; it was just foiled by a Deus ex Machina.^note Granted, I hold that the feint was more effective than it should have been, but it was a well-thought plan and the more natural result would've ended up with the same situation pre-Machina anyway.

And, regarding the whole Tournament bit... let's take the sport most similar in structure: Tennis. In our world, who do we hear about? We hear about the consistent winners, i.e. those who win more than 1 grand slam tourney in a 10-year span, not those who consistently make it to Week 2 but don't get much further. And I know that Shudo didn't intend for this to be a Sports Anime, but when the decision was made to end with a Tournament instead of an Elite Challenge, plus going through multiple generations,^note though none of the writers could really control the latter, that's what it became, for better or worse. Essentially, we're watching a 30 for 30 about a guy who often coaches in the Pro Bowl but never in The Super Bowl.^note Although, you know, such a 30 for 30 would be interesting; but it would be 70% talking heads; not like what we're seeing at all. Why didn't the writers decide to end it with the Elite instead of a TA, Orange Islands notwithstanding, we'll never know.

On that note, I personally think that keeping Ash and Pikachu the entire series holds it back. They're doing good now, but even then there's both the shadow of Best Wishes lurking around one corner and the expectation that "This will be the Season he breaks through and Wins!" based on their competence/power retention staring the series in its face. This would seemingly allow Ash's involvement in the series to end Happily Ever Before Victory Gets Boring; then again, Best Wishes proved that constant defeat is just as boring as victory. Note that I said Ash and Pikachu; Team Rocket, in their present form, is good enough to merit staying on as recurring villains; just don't have them crowd out the actual villains of the generation.

On the other hand, I like the though of Ash as Teacher with his classes being a Framing Device for episodes similar to what we have now. Call it How I Became A Pokemon Master.

By the way, Yamii, I'm thinking that the trope you were looking for in #7503 is Excuse Plot, not Gameplay and Story Segregation.

edited 28th Jan '15 12:27:35 AM by DonaldthePotholer

In a way I kind of feel every new female companion in the anime is a little less popular than the one before them. It has to do with ratings too, the anime was obviously a hell of a lot more popular a decade ago than it is now, and far more people watched the show when Misty and May were on it compared to any female companion later.

Although I also liked Dawn, I don't think any female companion really rivaled Misty in popularity the way May did. The writers made the decision not to bring Misty back to the cast sometime during the middle of Hoenn, and that was because May had successfully replaced her by then, and the Contest episodes started to really get popular in the series. The Misty Vs. May debates were vicious a decade ago, and we never saw that with any female companion who came after.

I think this is why Serena's crush doesn't register with people as much as it would have had she come 10 years ago, after Misty...then May...then Dawn...etc, the new female companion fatigue has set in. So we just know its going to be "more of the same" and then Serena will be shipped off for the next girl after her.

"Tell me how much flak the anime gets do you think is just people overlooking the differences between it and the games?"

A lot of it but not all of it. The fact is, even as a fan of the series who will defend it against all the people who say the anime is garbage and the only good non-game Pokemon is the manga (The Special manga I believe it is), there is no denying how repetitive everything is.

I want to see Ash WIN. I want to see him age. I want to see him NOT forget everything he learned when he goes to a new region.

And you might say "well, we gotta open up a new world to a new audience." And that's fine. REPLACE HIM. Get a new main character. If you want to keep Ash around, have him progress to a Mentor type role with a novice character taking his place as the "this is how things work" and all that.

But it's not going to happen because and I'm not going to seriously complain about it because it's like complaining about bad weather. There's nothing you can do about it so just move on.

The real reason I'm posting in here is because I love Australia. Madman Entertainment helped me get ALL of Gundam Wing on DVD in Brand New Condition and for cheaper than used DV Ds from here in the US.

And now I just discovered they sell Pokemon Seasons on DVD. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pokemon-Season-6-Advanced-In-Stock-/230934402424?pt=AU_DVDsBlurayDiscs&hash=item35c4c35578

As someone who has been aching to watch all of Advanced and D/P for a long time but doesn't much care for downloading anime (especiall6y when it takes too long and encompasses hundreds of episodes) this is a wonderful find for me. It's a fairly good price as well.

I have a firm tradition of being years behind the rest of the world and I'm honestly anxious to get through Advanced and to the time when PUSA took over. I'll always love Veronica Taylor, Eric Stuart and Rachael Lillis but I'm fine with giving the new people a try.

I'm not too excited for Advanced though. At least, the beginning started off kinda weak to my recollection. I stopped watching about that time because I was, and still am, a Super Misty Fan. May was not welcome. But I guess I should give her a chance.

EDIT:

Actually, one huge criticism of the game that I don't think exists in the anime is the limited moveset. 4 MOVES??? And some of them are so basic! Are you telling me if I have my Pokemon forget Scratch it no longer can use its claws? Thankfully that bit of game mechanics never happened in the anime.

edited 29th Jan '15 8:59:03 AM by Nikkolas

Actually, I'm pretty sure while not dwelled upon, most Pokemon only use four moves max in the anime until they learn a new one.

I remember that they had a bunch of boob jokes with Kasumi or Misty that I didn't like.

And they could have done more with Iris.

It begins....

Every one is going crazy over Ash and Serena.

And here I am wondering why is that guy giving all that stuff to Ash.