During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Handle that soon. I've done some research
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ok, for Judge Dredd:
Silver and PJ Maybe? Cut right now. Manners, too. They can count, but they need expansion and bluntly, I'm tired of doing other peoples' work for them. Cut them and leave a note to come here and explain them.
The Diktatorat...Snekov and Bulgarin can count. The entry just needs to be fixed.
Cal is a stub, cu for that alone.
Judge Death is one of the easiest keeps ever.
Write for him
- From JudgeDredd, we have Judge Death, the leader of the Dark Judges. While all are nasty pieces of work, Death is the only one who was shown as pure evil while alive. Death made living a crime on his home world and destroyed it, becoming an undead monstrosity who seeks to spread the power of the grave to as many worlds as he can. Death always returns to destroy any life he can, sadistically murdering those who cross his path while seeking the destruction of all that lives.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Done and done. Tomorrow I'll go through the examples, make sure the YMMV pages correspond, and make sure they're good. If no problems, I'll ask for a lock request before I go to bed Sunday. Then we can work on DC and Marvel.
Haven't read the series but it looks like only Judge Death and Supreme Judge Bulgarin and Snekov of the Diktatorat count. Since Death is an Omnicidal Maniac and Bulgarin and Snekov engineer a war that costs the lives of hundreds of millions of people, they set the heinous standard pretty high and the other entries on the page look pretty lacking comparatively. Judge Vlad and Kazan need to be removed from the Diktatorat's entry since Vlad shows a redeeming trait (caring about the citizens of their city) and Kazan is subservient to the other two, and thus less heinous.
@10741: Tv Rulez Again examples:
- President from Escape From New York: Cut for failing the heinous standard.
- Class Of 1984:
- Stegman: Keep.
- Patsy: Cut. Enjoying watching another commit violence is not comparable to engineering the violence itself.
- The Exorcist:
- Pazuzu: Cut.
- Gemini Killer: Cut.
- Paul Sarone from Anaconda: Cut, he's a fairly standard villain.
- Adventures Of Huckleberry Finn: Cut Huck's father for reasons Nocturna and lighty provided.
- Sword Of Truth: Cut everyone except Darken and Jagang.
- Hellraiser: Dr. Channard sounds the worst so he gets my vote to keep at least.
- The Princess And The Goblin: No on Froglip. He's nowhere near heinous enough, just a standard kids' movie villain. And he does love his mom.
edited 29th Mar '13 4:30:52 PM by OccasionalExister
I'd like to bring up a few examples from YMMV.Yogscast Minecraft Series. And before anybody asks, yes, they are all taken seriously.
- Israphel. Killed both of Peculier's parents then continues to stalk him and make his life a living hell, orders Jock_Fireblast to burn down Mistral City and BBQ Bay, zombified Granny_Bacon and then tried blowing up the church in which her funeral was taking place, and would happily turn on Minecraftia to release the Sand God.
- Skylord Vitali, he killed most of the other skylords and kept their bodies inside of chests.
- Jock Fireblast, one of Israphel's henchmen, who burns down Mistral City and would have done the same to Barbeque Bay if Simon and Lewis hadn't stopped him. Hell, on that last point he almost succeeded.
- King_Finbar. Turns on Stoneholm and converts the majority of dwarves into zombies, even the ones who were helping him.
Israphel: Keep as is. His entry nails pretty much all of his crimes.
Vitali: Cut. His murder of the skylords was offscreen, and the only "proof" we have that he did it were a bunch of bones in some chests, while detailing his murders with signs.
Jock: Cut. He was ordered by Israphel to burn the cities, planting the blame on him instead.
Finbar: Cut. Doesn't really get any characterization, on top of being less heinous than Israphel.
edited 29th Mar '13 5:38:29 PM by DocSharp
Never saw the series, but, from the looks of it, I agree it sounds like only Israpahel counts.
edited 29th Mar '13 5:53:06 PM by OccasionalExister
- Vaas might be Crazy Awesome, but he is also brutal, cruel, bloodthirsty and unrepentantly sadistic. How he deals with Jason and his prisoners does not win him any points, though several characters claim he was once a better man, and it is clear that he's not all there in the head.
- Hoyt Volker has "the biggest slave trading ring in the South Pacific". He forces a bunch of hapless civilians to run across a minefield to set an example and punishes people by burning them alive in a hotbox.
- Definitely Buck, the guy who buys Keith. Amusing lines aside, he has no redeeming features or excuses for his actions.
The Vaas entry contradicts itself.
- Zaboera, Flazzard, Kill-Vearn and Vearn himself.
No context.
- Vendetta. If you don't think terrorizing an entire town with a non-stop flow of fiends and plotting the murder of the only child who'd come within five feet of her in every single episode doesn't qualify for this, there's something wrong with you.
Not only does the entry say "there's something wrong with you", but Vendetta is listed as a Jerkass Woobie.
- Lionel's mom was a piece of work before she became a literal monster.
Again, no context.
- Keyser Söze, according to Verbal, and Dean Keaton, according to Kujan. Whether you choose to believe either of them is up to you.
Seeing "according to" tells me it's a cut.
- Complete Monster: Stern. At first he's played as a simple sadist teacher, but we find out he's a genocidal wizard bent on killing all vampires in Whitechapple. Yeah, the idea is done to death, but the catch is, he isn't a Knight Templar who believes all vampires are evil - he knows some are good and hates them anyway. He is even willing to kill non vampires who stand in his way.
Sounds kinda generic.
- Cohaagen and Richter
edited 29th Mar '13 8:49:54 PM by TVRulezAgain
Reading the pages for Making Fiends, it sounds like a comedy, it doesn't sound like the the aforementioned child is at all bothered by what Vendetta is doing (implying that her actions are played for black comedy), and it apparently happens to look like this
◊. Not a very good first impression for an entry that is supposed to be so self-evident that "there's something wrong" with anyone who doesn't agree with it.
RE: Judge Dredd. I concur with keeping Judge Death, and axing most of the rest. His status as an Omnicidal Maniac sets the bar pretty damn high. I'm not familiar with the rest of the examples, but the leadership of East Meg One are a group. Who is the worst of them?
Only the two Exister and I named at the end...the others don't stack with those guys.
As for TV rulez examples...I'll weigh in on those very soon
edited 29th Mar '13 9:45:12 PM by Lightysnake
Remember a while back when i mentoned those bully examples? Well I did cut them, but now Gary Smith as been added. At first I was considering just cutting it, coming back here, and sugesting that we add bully to the "never discuss again list", but, thinking back, he actualy does do alot. Gary hires the townies to try (unsucsisfuly) to burn down the gym, tries to kill Jimmy at the end (during the boss fight, he throws bricks at you while you are trying to walk across a balence beam on the roof of the school), and he turns the school campus into a battleground. I am not sure a game like Bully can have a CM, but I wanted opinions. So, keep, or cut and add to "never again"?
Ps I found out that you can search for examples to discuss easier if you go to usage counts, it can help us find some really bad examples to delete, as it has links to all the ymmv pages that have people listed as cm's, if we use it it can make our jobs a lot easier, in fact that's how I found this new bully example.
edited 30th Mar '13 1:16:32 AM by bobg
jjj
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
10756 and 10761: For the leadership, that's why I put primarily. As for Kazan, can't a Dragon be a CM.
EDIT: Changed it a bit.
EDIT 2: Wow, for what seems like a lighthearted game, Gary seems to count. Vile Villain, Saccharine Show?
edited 30th Mar '13 1:13:15 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Well, to tell you the truth, for most of the game, he's just a jerk, the biggest thing he does in the first chapter is trick Russel (a large powerful bully) into thinking you said something about his mother so that Russel will beat you to a bloddy pulp, but near the end, he goes completely off his rocker (it's mentoned that he stopped taking his medication), and makes the finale, pretty dark and epic, he has the townies cause a bunch of trouble, like getting Johnny Vicint (another studant) put in an asylum, trying to burn down the gym, while there are still studants inside, and finaly, turning the school ground into a battlefield. He tricks all the studants into getting into a maassive free for all, with people punching, kicking, and beating the crap out of each other. When you reach Gary, he starts throwing bricks at you as you try to make your way across a ballence beam to reach him. When you reach him, he climbs up a ladder and tries to push something large and heavy down on top of you as you are climbing it, after reaching the top, he brags about how he got kids expelled unfairly, put several others into thereapy, tyed up the principal and turned the campus into a battlefield. After the fight, the principal, who is still tyed up expels him.
In a way, I guess he's like Gaston in that he only startsoff as a jerk, but becomes a true bad guy by the end, they even both tried to get an innocent person put in an insane asylum, but at least Gaston did not hire somone to try to burn down a school gym. Also while Gaston did have the excuse that he wanted to get Belle to love him, Gary admits at the end that he did everything he did just because he could.
edited 30th Mar '13 2:23:14 AM by bobg
jjj
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, sounds like a keeper to me anyway.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"In distress", my ass.
Regarding Total Recall (1990), it's been years since I've seen the film but I'm positive that Richter doesn't count. He loved Lori, and Quaid killing her was why Richter was trying to kill him instead of the capture that Cohaagen wanted.
Cohaagen may qualify, but I'm not sure, and the current entry certainly shouldn't be up there as it is.
All your safe space are belong to Trump
Lost in Space
From what I've seen of Far Cry 3, Vaas is all kinds of screwed up; does the fact that he's clearly not all there, as well as being manipulated by Hoyt with drugs, invalidate the severity of his actions? I'd say yes, because Hoyt is clearly the much worse evil. CM is relative to other characters in the story, remember?
As for Buck, he's a slimeball rapist slave trader, but characters like that seem to be a dime a dozen on the island. Again, fails the relative heinous test.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Permission to add this to the fanfic section
Silent Ponyville The Colt, he butchers foals alive and bakes them into cupcakes, and never shows remorse for his actions. He even feeds Pinkie a cupcake made from her own little sister. Celestia herself says noone has committed crimes as heinous as his in centuries, and has to think twice before declining to have him executed
edited 30th Mar '13 10:07:56 AM by shoboni
There needs to be a group example round up. Here are some examples.
From the Live-Action TV section:
- Torchwood: Children of Earth
- The 456 while being Starfish Aliens, are very definitely examples of this trope. After taking control of all the world's children in order to communicate, it turns out that they use human children in some nasty symbiotic way in order to get high and are bargaining to take 10% of the world's children to use as drugs or else they Kill All Humans. This is a protection racket, and they would almost certainly have been back for more later. One child is seen hooked up to one of them and it's shown that he's been a human reefer for over 40 years. It's really twisted and nasty.
- Who could forget the cannibal villagers from Countrycide who would kidnap passersby and butcher them.
- Walker Texas Ranger:
- The white supremacist group from the episode "The Soul Of The Winter", where they assault anybody who isn't white and have no problems attacking teenagers. The group's leader convinces everybody that non-white races are evil and wants to kill his former military comrade, just because he is black, and planned to crucify and burn him, and on top of that, they worship Hitler and Nazi Germany, making them the closest counterpart to the Nazis in the series.
- The satanist cult from halloween episode "The Children of Halloween". They kidnap innocent children and plan to kill them all on Halloween night, and one of cult members even suggested killing one of the children before Halloween. They also sacrificed goats and killed one of their own men. The leader of the cult even calls himself Lucifer.
From the Fan Works section:
- Another one from a My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic fanfic. The Horizon Corporation in Friends of a Solar Empire, who did horrible, horrible things in order to create a magical supersoldier.
- And then there's the Federation Of The Stars.
- Although, in an odd example, both of the aforementioned factions are long, long dead by the time the story begins.
- The Vasari are this, in-universe, from the viewpoint of the Traders.
- And then there's the Federation Of The Stars.
- The Dark Young from The Stars Will Aid Their Escape that Herald uses as Mooks. While they may seem like mindless beasts, and thus exempt from this classification, when Fluttershy tries to calm down the one attacking Ponyville, she is shocked to find that it is sentient and completely aware of what it's doing. These things know they're killing innocent beings, and they enjoy doing it. This especially makes the scene where they drain the life from the Royal Guard even more terrifying when Fridge Horror kicks in — they're probably prolonging the process just so they can make the ponies suffer longer, which makes it more fun for them. Herald even says that they — and he himself — lack any sense of compassion, which is a defining part of this trope.
There are probably more them, but these are the ones I could find.
edited 30th Mar '13 11:41:59 AM by randomtroper89
Good finds, cut them all. If someone wants to argue for the groups' leadership qualifying they can come here and make the case, until that happens though, they all need to go.
I can see keeping the 456...it's more a being itself than a group
Ok, anyone else have thoughts on the Monster.Doctor Who section? Exister, Saiyaman and I have chimed in there.
Others:
Far Cry 3 Cut Vaas and Buck, keep Hoyt
Dai No daibouken: No context, cut and let them come and explain
Making Fiends: Cut Vendetta. If she genuinely appreciates her assistant?
Braindead: What is wrong with people thinking jerkass parents count? CUT
The Usual Suspects: SOLID cut
My Babysitter is a vampire: Eh, willing to keep if he's a genocidal prick
Total Recall: Cohagen is a good keep. Richter loves someone, so he's out.
Y'know what? Writeup time
- Peter Stegman is a young gang leader who pretty much owns his school. even the teachers are terrified of him, with good reason as he's a brutal little sociopath who runs drug and prostitution rings and has kids stabbed for ratting out his criminal activities. When new teacher Mr. Norris refuses to let Stegman play pianit in his band due to Stegman's attitude problems, Stegman makes it his mission to torture him. He attacks his friends, has a lab full of animals skinned alive just to hurt Norris and his fellow teacher friend and eventually leads a gang rape of Norris's wife before kidnapping her to lure Norris in with the intention of killing them both.
- Frank Cotton was a cruel hedonist before he was taken by the Cenobites. After his escape, he shows no remorse in murdering innocent people to drain them of their vital fluids to repair himself. When his niece Kristy Cotton, finds him, he attempts to rape her. He also murders his own brother and wears his skin as a disguise. When Kristy uncovers the truth, Frank also murders his accomplice and lover Julia with no remorse, taking her life as well. When he's taken by the Cenobites again, Frank languishes in a private hell and sends Kristy letters begging for help...pretending to be her father so she'll come to save him, solely so he can keep her as a sex slave.
- Julia Cotton as well enters this in the second film. after she's revived, she gleefully drains people at a mental hospital of their life while relishing in their pain and suffering to restore herself. She feeds her rescuer Dr. Channard to her 'master' to turn him into a Cenobite
- Dr. Channard from the second film. after reviving Julia, he happily feeds her his patients. His obsession with the Lament Configuration is so deep that he tries to have patients solve it, so he can observe the Cenobites taking them to eternal torture. After becoming a Cenboite, he becomes Drunk on the Dark Side and sadistically slaughters any living thing he sees: even other Cenobites when they remember their humanity and take a stand against him.
From Total Recall
- Vilos Cohaagen, the evil governor of Mars. Leading one side in a violent and oppressive civil war on Mars, Cohaagen is happy to have innocent people killed. When he can't find the hero Quaid, Cohaagen's response is to shut down the ventilation system in the city to slowly suffocate the citizens. Even when he gets what he wants, Cohaagen won't turn it back on, treating air like a commodity that people must pay for to survive
I think the colt belongs, but you will need more opinions from others, what do the rest of you think?
Write ups look good.
edited 30th Mar '13 11:49:52 AM by bobg
jjj
Does he kill anyone on-screen, or on-page or whatever? Why does he kill foals? Does he do anything else?
Thoughts on Judge Dredd? I wanna try and finish up the main page this weekend.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts