During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Loutermilch, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Groan.
The Timeless One
If I may ask, who's in charge of write ups here?
"I am the lord of Purity, who tolerates no deviation." My first online story
Foreign Troper
Nobody. This is a team effort. If you wanna know where to see which potential write-ups in the future are free for reservation, looky here
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Sandbox/CompleteMonsterDiscussionDates
Mr. Groan.
Found this on the Moral Event Horizon page.
- All of the previously mentioned MEH moments can't even compare to all of the things pulled by Tomaru Sawagoe, Makoto father: This... man is the main reason for Makoto's bad habits. His other insidious actions include impregnating his cousins, his sister, his daughters, AND his granddaughters; drugging (and almost certainly raping) his daughters so he could impregnate them when they were as young as FIVE, causing almost everyone in the School Days-verse to be related in one way or another; outright admitting to Makoto that he will steal all of his conquests for himself for shits and giggles; and simply being a horrible parent. And what's worse? Makoto, Sekai and several others are normally given swift punishment for their actions and even have some redeeming characteristics (i.e. Makoto's aforementioned hatred for bullies). Tamaru? He's a sociopath who often get's away with what he's done! This guy is so despicable, so smug, so outright unpleasant, that even Makoto himself hates his guts. He is, without a doubt, the most loathsome character in School Days.
Have we had a discussion on him? He sounds like he counts. I haven't read the novel or anything so I can't do an effortpost on him.
School Days is not one of those works I want to discuss... it is such a meanspirited, horrible piece of trash I really don't think anyone bears mentioning.
Foreign Troper
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Personal dislike shouldn't be a factor however.
Yeah Personal Dislike doesn't mean much. Otherwise we'll have to get rid of Not Important. Unless it's baseless Torture Porn there should always be a check for a character. (Except for works on the Never Again list)
Lizzid people!
We can all agree that School Days is a piece of crap, though. Well, except for the boat; it was a nice boat.
edited 29th May '17 7:01:40 AM by AustinDR
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Somebody tell me about School Days...I looked at the work page; is it THAT bad?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
It's a porn game with some plot. That's the only reason to be interested in it.
RE: School Days
Every single person in the series is a terrible, worthless excuse for a human being. The plot consists of the protagonist screwing literally every girl in the school, thus driving his nominal girlfriend insane, and concludes with one of the girls murdering him, only to then be herself murdered by his girlfriend. There's not a single decent person among the entire cast, and nobody stands out enough to qualify.
RE: Brainiac
What almost ensures that any serious version of Brainiac will qualify is his complete lack of anything approaching emotion. Since he cannot feel for anything, it's virtually impossible to give him any sort of redeeming qualities or positive goals, which means all that usually remains after that is for him to clear the heinous bar.
edited 29th May '17 7:21:30 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Exactly what I'm trying to say. Yes, I hate School Days, but that's not the argument I'm trying to make. The thing is? Every single goddamn character is pure scum, up to the protagonist (especially the protagonist, actually). The setting is Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy defined and we really don't need to be checking gutter trash like this anyways. We can exercise some discretion.
edited 29th May '17 7:27:55 AM by Scraggle
For anyone who hasn't watched the show...enjoy this very angry review. It should nicely sum up most of what is wrong with the cast.
edited 29th May '17 7:40:29 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Lizzid people!
Watched that video; it was really funny. Anyway, seems as though Robert got enough votes. Here's a writeup:
- Eraser: U. S. Marshal Robert DeGuerin is John Kruger's former friend and mentor. When it was reported that a mole was murdering several witnesses within the Witness Security Protection Program (WITSEC), DeGuerin reveals his true colors by shooting his own witness and pretending to resuscitate her in order to stifle her screams. As Kruger began to suspect him of being the mole, DeGuerin drugs his drink, and murders WITSEC deputy Monroe with John's gun; when he regained consciousness, DeGuerin frames John for the murder, rendering him a fugitive. DeGuerin plays a crucial role in a conspiracy led by Undersecretary of Defense Daniel Harper that revolves around selling electronic pulse rifles on the black market, preferably to Russian terrorists. When John and Lee Cullen infiltrate the Cyrez Corporation for information clearing their names, DeGuerin kidnaps her and takes her to the Baltimore harbor. After the final battle between him and Kruger renders him trapped underneath debris, DeGuerin begs Kruger for help only to try to shoot him with his gun. A sociopath who abuses his position for his own ends, DeGuerin doesn't care if his actions lead to a new wave of global terrorism as long as he benefits.
Thoughts?
edited 29th May '17 7:55:13 AM by AustinDR
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, they can't write him as COMPLETELY emotionless. Otherwise he approaches GDV territory.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Touche.
edited 29th May '17 7:44:48 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
That's not how GDV works and you know it. It's about having no character not having no feelings.
To be completely fair to School Days, the original visual novel only had 3 bad endings out of dozens. The player had to choose to make the main character act like an asshole and most of the other time had Makoto acting like a decent human being, and not to mention all the other characters were portrayed as being fundamentally decent people outside of the extreme circumstances that bring about the bad endings. Unfortunately, the anime adaptation, by far the most well known adaptation, took the negative personality traits of the cast and amped them up for the sake of drama and ended on the type of ending that became synonymous with the series. The resulting fallout from the anime adaptation then began creeping into the later visual novels and manga series and the gory endings and character flaws became more pronounced, albeit not nearly as much as in the anime, which again is what most people are familiar with.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
All of this is true, but it doesn't alter the fact that everyone in School Days is, at best, capable of becoming an utter ruin of a human being, and this pretty much shuts down any chance a given character has of standing out.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Holy shit, just saw that video.Don't know about the novel, but it seems everyone in the anime is unlikable.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
School Days looks really cute but from what everyone says it's actually super messed up.
And it's porn as well?
I don't think we should allow examples from porn. Unless it's written by Alan Moore or something. Like, it has to be real good work. With porn.
Porn-
Where was I?
Oh, yes, Brainiac and emotions. I dunno if Brainiac doesn't have emotions. He has goals and motives, but emotions? We can all agree he's The Stoic, but there is an argument to be made regarding whether or not his curiosity is an emotion, for example.
It has enough story to be allowed on the Porn with Plot and therefore get through the P5. If it's allowed on the P5 it should be allowed in discussion (Unless it's just villain tortures people For the Evulz)
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah yes, the P5.
I'm...not really a big fan. I think they overdo it at times.
edited 29th May '17 9:20:08 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
ACW I really hope you don't mean that.
I have previously suggested Saiki, from The King of Fighters XIII, but he's been rejected. I will now suggest another KOF villain: Clone Zero, from 2000.
The work: The King of Fighters 2000 is the 7th game in SNK's flagship series. It's the second chapter of the NESTS saga, starring K' as the new protagonist, as he fights in the tournaments now held by the titular NESTS cartel.
Since the series already has a monster in Rugal Bernstein (the very first villain), we see that the bad guys can get quite heinous at times.
The villain: Clone Zero is the Big Bad of the game. As the name indicates, he is a clone of the high-ranking member Zero (The Dragon from 2001). He is one of the top members of the NESTS cartel.
His actions: As you reach him, he reveals his plan: he wants to use the energy generated from the fighters' capacities to fuel his Kill Sat, the Zero Cannon. He wants to create a New World Order where he will rule supreme, not NESTS.
Heidern, the leader of the Ikari Warriors, is investigating him from the shadows. Little did he know that Zero planted a spy in his circle. It is revealed that the man named "Ling", who was an ally of the commander and superior to Seth and Vanessa, was actually Zero in disguise. It is also revealed that he dropped the rock that killed Krizalid at the end of '99.
The true Ling was murdered by the villain some time before the tournament and impersonated by Zero. Zero also created a clone of the dead Ling and placed him in Heidern's circle, so he could get help in capturing the heroes K' and Maxima. "Ling" and some disguised Zero lackeys then hold Heidern at gunpoint.
Canonically, he was faced and then defeated by the Hero Team: K', Maxima, Vanessa and Ramon. Still, he used their energy to fuel the cannon and fire several shots on Southtown (a recurring location in SNK games). However, Kula Diamond and her NESTS friends Diana, Foxy and Candy Diamond mess up the weapon, leading Zero to press the detonator to no avail as it blows up in his face.
He was then defeated for good, and the Ling clone was killed by Heidern. In his dying moments, he was approached by Whip, and revealed to her that she's a clone of K's sister, Seirah. In tears, it's strongly implied she shoots him dead (in the Japanese version of the game, a gunshot is heard as Whip points her gun).
Still, the edit team ending and all supplementary information by SNK confirms that Southtown was destroyed for real.
Mitigating factors or excuses: None. Of all the NESTS villains, he is the only one without any sympathetic qualities aside from Ron, a NPC villain whose goals are still unclear. Krizalid was A Father to His Men who cared for Whip; Original Zero was an honorable fighter who advises your team to hurry so they won't get killed in the arena explosion; and Igniz seems to really love his girlfriend Misty, as shown in one of his winposes.
Clone Zero remains an utter power-hungry tyrant and hypocrite: he hates traitors, though he himself is one to NESTS. The Zero Cannon seems to be all his idea and he was using it solely for his own designs. He wasn't following orders.
Heinous standard: Power-hungry tyrants are nothing new in KOF, as Igniz would attest to in the following game. However, unlike others, he causes enough damage on-screen to qualify in a way that only Rugal comes close.
On-screen, it is shown that his cannon destroyed a whole city, and the edit team ending has Heidern solemnly commenting on this. He is shown to have killed Ling and Krizalid. Igniz tried a Colony Drop on Earth but was ultimately foiled, killing no one but the villain himself. Zero Cannon was foiled a bit too late, and the destruction of Southtown leads to a rare example of a canonical Bittersweet Ending for the whole game.
His killing of Krizalid shows him as a Bad Boss, as the moment was a display of You Have Failed Me. In terms of moral agency, he is a traitor who is acting fully on his own. He isn't following orders, so that can't be used against him.
Though he doesn't hurt personally as much as Rugal or Goenitz (save perhaps for Ling and Whip), his canon annihilation of an entire area with presumably hundresds of thousands of inhabitants is too severe not to qualify. Coupled with his absolute lack of sympathetic qualities, he stands out among the NESTS villains and the overall series.
Yes or no: Based on all the above, I say .
edited 29th May '17 9:23:31 AM by MatLShini
