Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Done.

Also, to Keamy.

edited 26th Jul '14 9:38:08 AM by sanfranman91

I'll admit I'm biased towards my current Keamy write-up. It was approved before, what's the sudden problem with it?

Edit: On second thought, the new streamlined entry is very good and works better than the original. Nevermind to my earlier objection.

To Josh, Willford and the Kamen Rider entries.

edited 26th Jul '14 10:24:14 AM by OccasionalExister

to Keamy. That brings back memories....

If no one objects, I'll add the Older Than Dirt entry referencing Apep/Apophis I suggested to that page.

I found some more examples on YMMV pages. There may be a few keeps, but most are just bad:

• Complete Monster: With all their casual talk of massacres and conquest, Kaput and Zosky surely think of ''themselves'' this way, and are proud of it. The reality is far different.

Why do people think that Complete Monster is some sort of synonym for Card-Carrying Villain? If they fail at villainy, they're simply not examples.

• Complete Monster: Dr. Deo, who kidnaps and mind controls teachers and children alike, turns the moon into a apricot orange, and would have blown up Mylta using the doomsday machine, just because Queen Caspadia said he smelled bad.

Yeah, that's obviously played for laughs. The main page states it to be a comedy series.

• Complete Monster: Natalie Geln is a homophobic bitch. She attacks two transgender (Charlie, a MTF, and Tom, a FTM) students outside the school, cuts Charlie's hair, taking half of her ear-lobe with it, and orders two boys to rape Tom. She then gives a long speech about how she doesn't want any freaks in "her" school, and they should "Do the world a favour and kill themselves."

Her qualification seems to be based mostly on being a bullying Politically Incorrect Villain. The only part of her acts which seems to cross the line is the rape she orders. She can count if she has more crimes to her name, but otherwise it seems like a cut.

• Complete Monster: Jack Banister and Dawkins are both willing to destroy a town for financial gang, and to casually kill Michael while trying to tempt Fisk to join them.

Hard to say. There"s very little context on the work page, so I suppose it mainly depends on what "destroy the town for financial gain" means. If it's just driving people out of their homes I think it'd be inadequate, but if they actually kill people besides the hero they might fit.

• Complete Monster:
  • A number of Odio's human reincarnations have signs of this, but in particular:
    • Ode Iou, as his goal was to prolong fighting in Japan just so more lives are spent. Ends up transforming into a giant frog/snake monster.
    • Odie Oldbright, who thinks 'cruel and brutal murder' is the path to becoming the strongest. He even brags about the act, as if he accomplished some great feat. Oboro's chapter can be played this way, killing every single person you find, even innocent women. Granted, some of those 'innocent women' turn out to be demons.
  • The Antagonists in the Mecha chapter, they know full well what they're doing, since they know their victim's hatred over being stripped of their bodies against their will is what will fuel the Odeo statue.

The first two seem to be misuse of the "Player Character-dependent villainy" sort. The third is a group.

• Complete Monster: Moorkus Rex, obviously. He doesn't want to conquer the world so much as simply dismember it, and his Tyranns cut swaths of destruction wherever they go. His real power is illusion and fakery - he lies every time he opens his mouth, trying to sow confusion and despair, while the real threat — the Tyrann — destroys everything in their path. It unfortunately works all too well on Dina.
  • The Enslaver. He sent the dinosaurs and humans through hell and broke their trust all because he hated them. If it hadn't been for him the Tyrann wouldn't have returned and invaded.

The premise of this game sounds pretty funky (dinosaurs and humans live together, Evil Overlord rises up to threaten the world). The revelation that the Big Bad is literally a mouse sounds funny, but they can both fit. They mainly seem to need more context.

• Complete Monster: Despite having a lot of despicable characters in the game, Edward tops them all. Let's see...manipulating a sixteen (now seventeen) year old into joining your group only planning to sacrifice him when he lost his usefulness, check. Almost killing another teenager when he figures out the secret toward your bank, check. Killing the lovable history teacher when he finds out who is the cause of all the suicides...double check. To add to that there are some hints in the game that Edward might have done worse things to Hibiki than he lets on.
  • Graham is one if you squint. Granted, most of his evil deeds are seen offscreen but he's definitely as corrupt as Edward. However, he's the one responsible for Kagami and Hidaka's deaths.
  • Yamato deserves a special mentioning. Taking your students hostage, shooting a certain someone in the shoulder for trying to defend his friend and then threaten to kill another character's little sister in the process. Yep...that's a monster.
  • Lt. Tanaka is clearly the most messed up of the bunch. For starters he's a serial killer that has been stalking Mika for a long time. He hurts the people around her just to screw with her and he almost succeeded in killing (and possibly raping) her had it not been for Akira, Atsuki and Nami coming to her rescue. Unfortunately, he's the only one that Atsuki can read and his mind is messed up. He's so despicable that even Yui tries to kill him to avenge Mako.

Graham needs to go. For the others... according to the characters page, Edward is Affably Evil (although I suspect this is misuse for Faux Affably Evil) but also a Well-Intentioned Extremist. Yamato and Tanaka sound bad enough to qualify.

• Complete Monster: Slider, from "Jane Doe #38." While the results of his evil pale in comparison to Phillip Stroh or other criminals Major Crimes has put away (burglary and murder of a runaway girl), he's so utterly vile and disgusting that DDA Hobbs abandons a plea deal and charges him with Murder One.

So the entry calls him a Complete Monster while admitting he falls short of far worse villains in the work? Cut.

So that's 4 + myself for Keamy (thanks OE ).
Just finished Vikings: Harald is DEFINITELY a .

I'll second Morgenthaler's recommendations. Here are some anime/manga examples:

The first is from Magi The Labyrinth Of Magic in the flashback arc. We have Elder King David Jehoahz Abraham. In the time before time, in the world and Kingdom of alma Torran, David is the ruler of the Magicians who ascends to the throne of kingship and the father of King Solomon. David is also a vicious tyrant who oppresses the nonhuman species of the world and keeps them either enslaved or under a terrible mind control where they'll be used as mindless soldiers.

David's son Solomon eventually rebels against David and leads a great resistance to destroy the system David creates. David, intending to hold power, leads a vicious counteroffensive and we become steadily aware of what he truly is: everything he's done, including Solomon, were to bring David closer to the 'God' of the world: Ill Illah, to supplant it and destroy it in the process.

What seals David is when Solomon finally brings the fight to David's capital. David and his 11 closest Magicians leave a group of duplicates for Solomon and the group while David...leads his men around to slaughter the civilians in David's contingent. Women, children, noncombatants, with one of the young, young children of Solomon's close friends dying a horrible death by being burned alive. One of the few fighters trying to protect them is murdered by David without a thought before he engages Solomon and meets his end.

The second is Joa, The Dark Chef from Toriko. Now, in the past, Joa was born from the corpse of Frohze, the Goddess of Chefs. As a new entity, Joa is the leader of the group NEO and refers to Frohze as her 'mother.' Joa was the competitor of the first Cooking Festival 200 years before the start of the series and won it...but broke a 'certain rule' and had the championship stripped away.

Now, the Toriko world is in the 'Gourmet age' where the world's greatest warriors are fighters who hunt for new and rare ingredient, and chefs are deified. Joa's identity is a carefully guarded secret, but what sets her apart? Joa has a creature called The Four Beast freed from its prison to attack the human world. The result is the Four Beast goes on a rampage, as it has a taste for humans. The attack has the capacity to result in the deaths of billions of innocent people, to set up a distraction for Joa to get a book she wants. When one hero notices Joa's presence, Joa 'cooks' him into a loyal minion. It's revealed Joa can Mind Rape anyone she encounters with a cut of her knife into a brainwashed servant, and she's done this to tons of people in the strongest organizations in the world.

Joa I might be inclined to wait on, as so much of her is very mysterious, but she hits every point thus far. She's showing she clearly has moral agency, and almost everything that ever goes wrong is her fault. I also can't stretch she was nearly ready to kill billions just as a distraction, coupled with cannibalism, mind rape and various other nastiness.

edited 26th Jul '14 11:15:59 AM by Lightysnake

Killing billions over a book? The fuck?

I looked through and think we may be overlooking one example: Knox of Angel.

In comparison to Billy Blim he is easily as heinous, if not worse. He is psychotically devoted to Illyria, an old demon whose armies ravaged the world and sought to bring her back. How? He arranges her sarcophagus to be slipped through customs, had Fred specifically chosen as a host and has her infected, where she dies in the most horrific way possible. The Nice Guy act was just an act and when Gunn finds out Knox taunts him over being manipulated into helping in exchange for help with his brain. When Illyria is resurrected she shows Even Evil Has Standards and is disgusted by him, and his quest to help her wipe out the human race.

In short he shows to be sufficiently heinous, any positive emotions he shows are just an act and has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Not heinous enough.

Working as a servant to wipe out the human race and the means to do so is not heinous enough? Yet Billy Blim is?

I don't know,he seems Ryan Anderson level bad.
Alright, cleaned up Law And Order Monsters, and a few issues:

• The first entry is a mess.
• Larry "Woodsman" Moore: It seems like we see the results, but not actually HIM.
• Harris: Don't know how much is Rape Discretion Shot and how much offscreen, though it seems like we see the aftermath, which is enough. And thus that establishes a pattern->10 or so rapes->seems to qualify.

Billy Blim's a different type of monster. He doesn't have any reason for turning other men into misogynistic murderers other than his own amusement. He's also acting on his own as far as tiers are concerned, he's being as nasty as he can be by himself. A better comparison to Knox here would be Caleb. Knox and Caleb both work for a God of Evil but in his own position Caleb does a lot of horrible shit to more people individually than Knox does, and with far more malice in his intent.

edited 26th Jul '14 1:16:41 PM by VeryMelon

Yeah, the 'wipe out the world and humanity?' That's a dime a dozen in the Buffy-verse.

The Master did it by trying to open the Hellmouth. Angeleus tried to do it in Season 2. The four random demons in Season 4 tried it. It happens a lot.

edited 26th Jul '14 1:14:03 PM by Lightysnake

I'm also going to vote no on Knox. In addition to not being heinous enough, something about his devotion to Illyria makes me think that he truly cared about her on a personal level rather than just as a means of causing the apocalypse, the latter of which was the vibe I got between Caleb and his relationship with the First Evil.

edited 26th Jul '14 1:24:43 PM by OccasionalExister

On some level I'm offended that his actions are not considered heinous enough. Then again, given the priss of a villain he was, do we want to give the dignity for lack of a better word of being a CM?

Dignity doesn't really much matter, generally. The thing is, though...how ca you say his actions stick out from the crowd enough? How is he worse than the Master, Angelus and Caleb?

Which now makes me question Angelus The only thing besides Acathla (sp?) I remember onscreen is the whole Jenny Calendar thing.

Ah, there it is. I never watched Angel, only Buffy.

Boy, it really says something that "trying to destroy the world" is the minimum heinous standard

Lighty, I gotta get back to Joa. Willing to kill billions over a freaking BOOK?

edited 26th Jul '14 3:19:00 PM by ACW

ACW...stop. I do not need to tread old ground that has been tread so often it now has footprints permanently ingrained into it.

If you have forgotten the three zillion murders, tortures, rapes and other cruelties from Angelus, fine, but we're not going over this again.

edited 26th Jul '14 3:01:25 PM by Lightysnake

Pointless cruelty of his actions more than anything else, enough to disgust even the demon he worshipped, but I'm willing to let that slide.

Blatant Lies, like hell I am, but I'm not going to pursue the issue.

This is on Fan Works:

• Yu-Gi-Oh! Forever has several villains, both those who serve as the Big Bad of their respective arc and those who are henchmen, but none come quite as close to utter vileness as Abel Drake, a member of the Quirky Miniboss Squad in the JUDAS arc. He mind-rapes children (using the Millennium Key's power to unlock and alter memories as he sees fit) For the Evulz, forced one character to relive her Dark and Troubled Past using said ability, and had a very bad impact on another major character's screwed-up development by stealing that character's mother's soul to power the revival of an Eldritch Abomination, then brainwashed said character and his sister so they wouldn't remember that part of their past.

Now, the YMMV page has more entries:

• Abel Drake. He mind-raped Miriam and Malachi when they were small children and made them join his Lightbearer cult, and this was after murdering their mother before their eyes. Then years later, he forced Jillian to mentally relive her sister’s gang-rape and suicide before stealing her soul afterwards.
• Bryce Zabel. He had no qualms about implanting a mind-control chip into four-year-old Seta’s brain stem without his knowledge or consent as part of an attempted Xanatos Gambit to take over Kaiba Corporation for himself and get revenge on Seto in the process.
  • In relation to the above, Gozaburo had sanctioned the creation of the chip for just such a purpose. And then he willfully and knowingly brainwashes his own grandson with the power of that same chip years later, then holds an entire stadium of innocents hostage with the threat to kill ANYONE who wouldn’t bow down to him; not to mention the Sadistic Choice he forces Yugo to face at Tokyo Dome.

Do Bryce Zabel and Gozaburo sound as heinous as Abel Drake?

Smart move. One thing I've learned here is some things just aren't worth fighting after some time.

Not knowing the work, just from the descriptions it seems like Zabel Gozaburo

edited 26th Jul '14 3:29:24 PM by ACW

Did we ever vote on Clear Sky from Warrior Cats or Shredtail?

I'll do my best to explain both of them.

Shredtail is an agent of the Dark Forest who brutally slaughters many cats in their dreams being responsible for the death of Antpelt, for daring to show mercy on an enemy. Like Tigerstar, he's one of the top enforcers of the Dark Forest and has attempted genocide on the clans through slaughtering warriors in their dreams, the one we really get to see is Antpelt.

Clear Sky is a little more complicated. He was originally the Aloof Big Brother to Jagged Peak and the main protagonist, until he started his own clan. While he may have given many cats a home, he did however, exile his own son, his brother, and attempted to murder both his son and brother. He also murdered a cat for simply being on his territory, and tried to murder the kits. While he may not be the Fascist Tigerstar was, he certainly has done quite a bit on screen in order for him to at least be considered. He's also an Ungrateful Bastard.

more info for Joa: The Toriko is many times bigger than our own Earth. Even bigger still is the 'Gourmet World' which is a dreaded no-man's land only a select few can safely enter where the REAL strong beings live.

Cooking is everything there. Ingredients, beasts, recipes...the book Joa wants contains some very vital, and forbidden knowledge. Releasing the Four Beast to kill billions upon billions of humans so Joa could get the book is just math for her. Under Joa, NEO has no more interest in the human world.

Definite for Elder King David Jehoahz Abraham. One of the most brutal characters I've ever seen in a manga (and this is coming from someone who has read Gantz and Deadman Wonderland).

I'm going to abstain on making a decision on Joa. She does reach all the markers, but if she hasn't met her end or been permanently dealt with as a threat, then we should probably wait. From what I've heard, it's more likely that she will probably commit more crimes than be redeemed somehow (via Freudian Excuse, Alas, Poor Villain, or other mitigating tropes), but I've seen CM candidates being taken out of contention at the last minute before so it's better to be safe than sorry.

edited 26th Jul '14 11:48:27 PM by sanfranman91

Toriko generally doesn't follow that pattern like other modern shonen since its more like the 80's type. Joa probably won't be excused for what she's done. This isn't like Naruto, Bleach, or One Piece, its kind of like Fist Of The North Star but with food and adventure.