To-do list:
- It was decided to rename Archer Archetype to Aloof Archer and rewrite it to focus on cold, analytical archers who like to work alone.
- Rewrite the description. Sandbox.Aloof Archer can be used for the rewrite.
- Clean up on-page examples.
- Clean up wicks.
OP courtesy of Ayumi-chan
Archer Archetype is about an archer with a composed, analytical personality. However, it's been decayed to any person who uses a bow as a weapon. I also saw some usage of the The Archer redirect, with that being AA's original name before being renamed from another TRS
.
Here are the results from the wick check:
- An Archer who is stoic and/or analytical - (15/50)
- Just uses a bow - (18/50)
- Others (ZCE, pothole, misuse etc.) - (17/50)
Possible Solution: As the trope itself is valid, a rename would be the most optimal solution (something like Stoic Archer Archetype might do, but I'm open to other suggestions). Additionally, we should also cut The Archer redirect.
Wick check:
The main description for Archer Archetype is about an archer who is stoic and analytical, but it has decayed for anyone who uses a bow. This wick check will show how much decay is there.(50/50)
- An Archer who is stoic and/or analytical - (15/50)
- Just uses a bow - (18/50)
- Others (ZCE, pothole, misuse etc.) - (17/50)
- Characters.Brave Danganronpa Cowards Paradise (Rei Tsuji)/ Archer Archetype: She's the Ultimate Archer and is considered stoic in her public appearances.
- Characters.Azur Lane Eagle Union Aircraft Carriers CV (The Yorktown-class/Enterprise (CV-6))/ Archer Archetype: She wields something akin to a longbow and launches her planes as if they were real arrows. She fits the personality of the archetype dead-on as one of the most serious ships in the game, usually taking the burden of leadership of the Eagle Union if not Azur Lane as a whole.
- Characters.Dororo 2019 (Mutsu and Hyogo)/ Archer Archetype: Mutsu is a level-headed and proficient archer, staying distant even when offering Tahomaru advice.
- Characters.God Of War Series Atreus/ Archer Archetype: Although he can sometimes be as emotional as expected of a kid, Kratos has taught him to remain calm and focused in combat, and he's remarkably skilled with the bow under pressure. He was able to shoot the Stranger multiple times in a matter of seconds in the middle of a freefall.
- Characters.Octopath Traveler The Eight Protagonists (H'aanit, the Hunter)/ Archer Archetype: H'aanit is the primary bow-user of the travelers and is generally a calm and collected individual.
- Characters.Maya And The Three (Chimi)/ Archer Archetype: A Master Archer with a cold disposition, especially towards humans. She gradually mellows out.
- Characters.Apocalypto (The Mayas/Snake Ink)/ Archer Archetype: A stone-faced man who makes a good shot while the captives have to run the gauntlet.
- Characters.Atlas Reactor (Khita)/ Archer Archetype: With the exception that Khita hates solitude and more than anything wants to stay in Atlas where it's bright and full of people, she fits the 'independent and graceful' parts of the archetype. In the lore she's seen bonding with Grey over their common use of arrow-based weapons
- Characters.Majikoi Love Me Seriously Kazama Family (Miyako Shiina)/ Archer Archetype: Miyako is the cool and calculating member of the group, though not in the same way as Yamato. She's not completely helpless in melee, but is significantly worse off fighting in close range.
- Characters.Love Live Muse (Umi Sonoda)/ Archer Archetype: Umi is one of the calmest and most down-to-earth of the girls, and is in the archery club.
- Characters.Sha Po Lang Novel (Chang Geng)/ Archer Archetype: He's an excellent archer, and he's also calm, calculating, and nearly unflappable in times of distress.
- Characters.Fire Emblem The Sacred Stones Playable Characters (Innes)/ Archer Archetype: He joins Seth as one of Eirika's main advisers on strategy and tactics, and is kind-hearted but notably haughty and can't have a proper conversation to save his life. His artwork also shows him as being very slender, and Eirika tells him that he needs to stay behind her in a support conversation.
- Characters.Sword Art Online Dark Territory (Furgr)/ Archer Archetype: Like his fellow Ogres, he wielded a wrist-mounted crossbow, and maintained a calm disposition even when he was about to enter a fight he had no chance of winning.
- Characters.Touhou Eiyashou Imperishable Night (Eirin Yagokoro)/ Archer Archetype: Calm, cunning, often depicted with a bow and arrows,note and effectively a Space Elf to boot.
- Characters.Yes Pretty Cure 5 (Karen Minazuki)/ Archer Archetype: Gains the "Pretty Cure Sapphire Arrow" eventually, and being the Cure of Intelligence she mostly keeps her calm, cool, collected persona. In a subversion, that attack is usually reserved for finishing blows, she usually resorts into pummelling the enemy with fists and feet before that happens.
- Characters.Trails Series Erebonia Thors Main Campus Classes (Ferris Florald)/ The Archer: Uses an orbal bow and arrows during Cold Steel II. using the redirect The Archer
- Characters.Inheritage Boundary Of Existence (Khaula The Golden Deer, Arca of Bogor)/ Archer Archetype: Her second weapon, and actually, the more powerful one.
- Characters.Pokemon Unite Attackers (Decidueye)/ Archer Archetype: The only Pokémon who plays like an archer.
- Characters.Elden Ring Secondary Characters (Dolores the Sleeping Arrow)/ Archer Archetype: Wielded a bow with special arrows that put her targets to sleep.
- Characters.Magna Carta 2 (Celestine)/ Archer Archetype: She uses a bow in combat.
- Characters.Hyper Light Drifter (The Sentients)/ Archer Archetype: The Archer uses a massive Energy Bow to fire arrows and bombs.
- Characters.Brave 10 (Other Historical Figures/Nasu no Yoichi)/ Archer Archetype: A master archer who's not afraid to fight in a 4 vs 4 melee, keeping the distance and showering his opponents with arrows.
- Characters.Dragalia Lost Main Characters (Cleo)/ Archer Archetype: Goes with a Bow for this variant.
- Characters.Bug Fables (Cross and Poi)/ Archer Archetype: Cross wields a crossbow as a main weapon.
- Characters.Game Of Touhou Woodlands (Maester Eirin Yagokoro)/ Archer Archetype: Is a skill archer, and uses poisoned arrows to ensure kills.
- Characters.In Another World With My Smartphone Main Characters (Yumina Ernea Belfast)/ Archer Archetype: Uses archery in combat along with magic, and later receives a magic revolver from Touya.
- Characters.Dungeons And Dragons Giant Deities (Hiatea)/ Archer Archetype: She carries a longbow +5 with triple the normal range and a quiver of +3 arrows.
- Characters.Girls Und Panzer Oarai Academy Duck And Hippo Team (Kiyomi "Saemonza" Sugiyama)/ Archer Archetype: She is into kyuudou, and wears a muneate (chest protector for females) over her uniform all the time. Sometimes, she even carries her bow around in training, and likely into battle.
- Characters.A Song Of Ice And Fire The Nights Watch Rangers (Ronnel Harclay)/ Archer Archetype: Reportedly skilled with a bow.
- Characters.My Little Pony Equestria Girls Villains (Sour Sweet)/ Archer Archetype: During the relay race, she grabs a quiver of arrows from the sidelines without breaking stride, clears the rope swing and lands into an Unnecessary Combat Roll, and then shoots three arrows at once. All three hit her target, one of them as a bullseye. It's one of the most impressive feats seen from the films in terms of physicality, and she does it with style Rarity would approve of.
- Rainbow Six Siege Operators - Year One (Hibana)/ Archer Archetype: Hibana's profile mentions that she is a practitioner of kyūdō, and she specializes in breaching and attacking from a distance. Her Onkochishin Elite Set plays this up even further, depicting her with a modern kyūdō uniform.
- Characters.Queens Of Mewni Queens (Diana the Huntress)/ Archer Archetype: Her wand took the form of a bow riser.
- Characters.The Undetectable Strongest Job (Priscilla)/ Archer Archetype: She's a huntress that fights with a bow. Unfortunately, while her aim is true, her arrows lack the force to deal with bigger foes.
- Characters.Dead End (The Robin Hood Cosplayer)/ Archer Archetype: Being a Robin Hood cosplayer, he fills the bill. ZCE
- Characters.Injustice The Insurgency Justice League (Green Arrow (Injustice Universe))/ Archer Archetype: If his name wasn't a giveaway. ZCE
- Characters.Mount And Blade II Bannerlord Kingdom Of Battania (Fian Champions)/ Archer Archetype: Zigzagged, while you certainly don't want them on the front line their decent armor and swords mean they can hold their own should the enemy be able to close the gap. unsure
- Characters.League Of Legends Themes N To Z (Rift Quest)/ Varus Swiftbolt, the Archer. pothole
- Characters.Game Of Thrones Arya Stark/ Multi-Melee Master: Turns into this this over the course of her travels, becoming well-versed with a smallsword, slashing knives, throwing knives, and whatever her Season 8 weapon was (spear that splits into two short spears/swords?) All before reaching the age of twenty. And that's to say nothing of her displayed-once-but-never-used-again aptitude with a bow. pothole
- Characters.Elsword Playable Characters 1 (Rena Erindel)/ Archer Archetype: She's more friendly than cold, but she fits many of the other descriptions. She isn't so terrible up close, though. This trope is played straighter with her Daybreaker class line. unsure since she's more friendly than cold, leaning a bit on misuse
- Characters.Granblue Fantasy Gran Djeeta (Ranger Derived)/ Archer Archetype ZCE
- Characters.Aventures (Les Survivants/Brooke)/ Archer Archetype: A post-apocalyptic take of this trope. ZCE
- Characters.Fate Extra Servants (Archer)/ Archer Archetype: He is an Archer class Servant, and he's pretty much the first one seen to rely on his bow. He's also pretty independent, as shown by his ambush of the protagonist on campus, which was not ordered by his Master. unsure
- Characters.Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax (Assist Characters/Tomo Asama)/ Archer Archetype ZCE
- Characters.Queen At Arms (Cesca)/ The Archer: Her job. ZCE; Under it's redirect The Archer
- Characters.City Of Heroes (Manticore)/ Archer Archetype: As an Expy of Green Arrow, this is a given. ZCE
- Characters.Baldurs Gate So D Party Memebers (Schael Corwin)/ Archer Archetype ZCE
- Characters.Final Fantasy III (In General)/ Weapon Specialization: The manga heroes have specific weapons they favor in combat: Muchi uses a sword, Doug has a bendable stick with a spikeball on the end, Melfi has a bow and arrows as well being proficient in white magic, and J Bowie sometimes wields a staff while other times relying on physical prowess. In either case, he also uses black magic. pothole
- Characters.Hyrule Warriors Hyrulean Forces (Zelda)/ Archer Archetype: The wise, gentle, calm, and female take. unsure but is written as a ZCE
- Characters.Muv Luv Extra (Miki Tamase)/ Archer Archetype: Played with. She's trying to fit into this personality at least when she's on the archery range but she gets really nervous. unsure
- Triangle Strategy - Kingdom of Glenbrook (Hughette Bucklar)/ Archer Archetype: Inverted. While she does wield a bow, she is one of the most emotional members of the party. In the heat of the escape from Whiteholm, she accuses Frederica of siding with Aesfrost, her home country, but apologizes for it afterwards, admitting that she lost control of her emotions. Justified, given that anyone would be emotionally shaken after seeing their comrades killed in front of them. unsure as its listed as an Inversion
Possible Solution: As the trope itself is valid, a rename would be the most optimal solution (something like Stoic Archer Archetype might do, but I'm open to other suggestions). Additionally, we should also cut The Archer redirect.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 27th 2023 at 7:41:59 AM
She / Her
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to renaming to "Stoic Archer Archetype" or "Stoic Archer" or something like that. I also wouldn't complain if the redirect The Archer gets cut, but it doesn't make much of a difference to me.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I'm starting to wonder if we should disambiguate between Cold Sniper and the various nature/wilderness-related tropes that came up, considering the former covers most of the non-Chairs examples the wick check picked up, and between the other two parts of the archetype, the nature/wilderness aspect appears to be covered elsewhere due to multiple tropes coming up, and the part about archers being more graceful and/or physically weaker than other fighters doesn't seem to have much of a presence on the wick check.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 12th 2023 at 1:30:30 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
low-poly Shinri
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Seems good to me.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Neglected to mention that if Cold Sniper doesn't already cover the use of bows instead of guns, we can make that change (which would probably be easy since we'd just be expanding the types of ranged weapons that can be used).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 13th 2023 at 2:17:19 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I think Cold Sniper is flexible enough to cover bows, unless it's crucial to the trope that the sniper be part of a squad/working for military.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Hmmm, that one does seem fairly military-based. Archers tend to be characterized more as rogues, loners in the way that they do their own thing and are rarely associated with the military. If that's not essential, then the intro to Cold Sniper is way too narrow.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
the Retromancer
Rifles are effectively modern bows, and Cold Sniper being a thing is because being separated and having steel nerves is kinda their job. The question is if this applies to archers as well, as they are a common piece in a fantasy party.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
The original YKTTW didn't seem to consider the possibility of Cold Sniper applying before the invention of modern rifles.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I feel that the loner aspect (which WarJay's post discussed) means there wouldn't be a problem with including lone wolves in addition to members of a group (military or otherwise), and since it appears that both bows and guns have stereotypes about users being cold and both are ranged weapons (the ranged weapon aspect being discussed in Amonimus's post), it might not be too drastic of a change to allow both if it doesn't already.
If others think adjusting Cold Sniper that way (again, if it doesn't cover that already) would make it too broad, we could find another way to tackle the stereotype of cold/distant/aloof archers.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 14th 2023 at 4:03:09 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
I vote to disambiguate between Cold Sniper (expanded to include bows), Forest Ranger, and Master Archer.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I think that sounds good.
Amateur Veteran
I think doing a quick breakdown of Cold Sniper's description should be useful here:
Emphasis here in the intro is on a very cold detachment and the ability to snuff people out without any emotional or emphatic twinge.
Here the focus seems to be on solitude and acting as a silent, stealthy hunter who operates on their own in difficult wilderness areas.
Here the main gist is patience, focus and self-control.
The last bit in the see-also is worth noting because it puts the most negative spin on this — a Cold Sniper is "evil", "eerie", or "sinister", or at least is depicted in such a manner that their profession has a specifically dehumanizing impact on them.
I haven't done a wick check — we might want that, and I can do a quick one in a bit — but at a glance here this seems a lot more specific than "cool and aloof ranged fighter". A big part of this trope's current identity is on snipers being two things:
- Cold and detached to the point of being almost entirely unemotional, ranging in scope from "unsettling killer who'll snuff out lives without batting an eye" at one end to "dehumanized hunting-thing" at the other.
- Solitary specialists who spend a lot of their time hunting in adverse or wilderness conditions, again without care or reaction.
Now, looking at the valid examples on the wick check, the archer trope we have on our hands does not seem to match this very well. Most notably, I see these trends:
- Personality tends to focus generally on being calm, steady, and focused. Explicitly cold or eerie aspects, which Cold Sniper defines as central to itself, don't seem to be very much in evidence — in fact, I'm seeing maybe one, the Maya and the Three example. There's a difference between "creepily unemotional killer" and "clam and unflappable combatant".
- The concept of fighting alone and in wilderness areas also isn't visible. All of the valid examples where this matter is touched upon are part of larger groups and are described as fighting alongside them, just in the back lines. Note that this is also an issue with the original trope, which talks about archers being nature heroes and wilderness fighters and then... well, doesn't have any examples of that. Hell, one example outright says that its subject "hates solitude and more than anything wants to stay in Atlas where it's bright and full of people".
If we decide that this should be folded into Cold Sniper, we would need to first expand its characterization scope and then either declare that the "solitary hunter in the wilderness" aspect is optional or just cut it altogether, because it is not evident in the trope that we want to fold it in. And that would not be folding a trope into a supertrope, it would be significantly redefining a trope by expanding some parts and cutting others, and I do not think that we should do that without a proper wick check and analysis to determine that we do, in fact, want to redefine Cold Sniper that throughly.
Also, because of that, Archer Archetype also doesn't seem like it can or should be disambiguated to nature/wilderness hero tropes, because... well, again, there are no examples of that in evidence.
My vote is for renaming the archer-specific thing and keeping it as its own trope.
Edited by Theriocephalus on Nov 15th 2023 at 2:20:18 PM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Maybe renaming Archer Archetype would be the best option, then. We could possibly also remove the parts of the definition the wick check didn't pick up any examples of and send them to TLP or the Salvage Yard, similarly to what we did when Peek A Bangs was brought to TRS.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 15th 2023 at 2:38:33 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Yeah, I was thinking of arguing against broadening Cold Sniper but you did it better than I would have.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
So, going back to Macron's breakdown of the current definition:
2. Cold, analytical archer that likes to work alone.
3. Bows/archers are stereotypically more graceful than other weapons, weapon users. EDIT: They are often physically weaker and less built than other fighters
Expanding on what I said in my previous post, the crowner I had in mind was sending 1 and 3 to TLP or the Salvage Yard (since the wick check picked up few, if any, examples of those) while rewriting the trope to focus on 2, possibly with a rename. (For context for what I said about what happened with Peek A Bangs, the original definition covered what is now covered by Hiding Behind Your Bangs and Sultry Bangs, but TRS voted to narrow the original trope down to the former and rename it due to the non-Chairs examples in the wick check mostly, if not entirely, fitting that definition, while the latter was done from scratch via TLP due to a lack of existing examples in the original trope's wick check.) Did I miss anything?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 16th 2023 at 7:03:56 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
low-poly Shinri
Having read this thread, that's the jist. I'm fine with the options you presented.
Amateur Veteran
Personally, I think "Analytical Archer Archetype" would be a better rename, simply because of alteration.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I hooked a crowner for whether to rewrite the trope, possibly with a rename, since it's been a while since I brought up an idea for how to do it, and there was positive feedback with no objections.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
the Retromancer
So are we against expanding Cold Sniper?
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of renaming Archer Archetype and rewriting it to focus on cold, analytical archers who like to work alone, and splitting off a trope for archery being associated with wilderness and a trope for bows/archers are stereotypically more graceful than other weapons/weapon users (and often physically weaker and less built than other fighters) by sending them to either the Trope Launch Pad or the Trope Idea Salvage Yard.
What are our name options?
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
low-poly Shinri
Here are the name options I found on this thread:
She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Stoic Archertype, I feel like it'd be too easy to dismiss or even miss the pun as a typo
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Hooked a crowner since we already have enough names, and it's been a few days since we decided to rename.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to rename Archer Archetype and rewrite it to focus on cold, analytical archers who like to work alone, with other meanings covered by the current defintiion being sent to either the Trope Launch Pad or the Trope Idea Salvage Yard due to a lack of examples. What should the rewritten Archer Archetype's new name be?
Maybe we could do something like Wilderness Archer Primacy for wilderness that's a) not explicitly tied to nature and b) is classified in-universe as being perfectly suited for overly traditional yet uprooted archer types (The Butts, High Heart, District 12, etc)? IDK about the others, though.
Also FWIW Trope Epitaph mentions that Straight Arrow/The Archer led to similar "character uses a bow" chairs, so I'm a bit more in favor of yarding/whatever else.
Silver and gold, silver and gold