Ensemble Dark Horse Cleanup

It depends. For some games, nearly all characters are playble but not all of them will receive the same focus if the game is narrative-based. I do think that for that game Zhao is still too prominent to count. He's not as focused on as the other core party members but it's a small team in a very large game so he gets more than a lot of NP Cs.

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• Almost everyone loves Himiko Yumeno. Common reasons for this include both her appearance as a Moe Cute Witch and counting with a talent that had been highly requested by fans, and her Chuunibyou and Cold Ham personality. Fans also like that she goes through Character Development and learns to be more expressive, following Tenko's advice before her demise. It also helps that unlike characters in the previous installments, Ishimaru and Hiyoko, she actually gets to complete her character arc and is not outright murdered in the very next chapter; in fact, she survives the Killing Game.

Reason: Himiko is a very polarizing character. There’s a lot of hate for her online and this is also coming from personal experience. She’s a Base-Breaking Character easily.

I ended up deleting Himiko under the Ensemble Darkhorse page for Danganronpa a while ago. I want to hear any potential arguments for why she qualifies because from my personal experience there’s a lot who despise her for being an annoying brat who won’t drop the wizard gimmick even in important moments like the second trial. She definitely does has fans for her development and relationship with Tenko, but just like nearly every character in V3, there’s a vocal hatebase, especially from people who dislike the game and cast as a whole.

Edited by Loginator1113 on Jun 21st 2023 at 2:07:15 AM

I think it's the fact that she does become better in the game and her character development improves her previous gimmick enough that it's not annoying anymore. Or at least that's what i think.

I honestly have seen a lot of like about the character.

Honestly, I feel like nearly all of the examples on EnsembleDarkhorse.Danganronpa are misuse. Most are just "character that people like", missing the part where they're disproportionately popular for their role in the plot.

If it were up to me? Any of the 16 main students in each game should automatically be disqualified as they don't count as minor characters. Even those who die early on have a major presence in the few chapters they're in.

She was probably a lot more liked originally when the game first came out, but like a lot of V3 characters, she got more hate over time. In this popularity poll, she only got a 5.9. https://www.reddit.com/r/danganronpa/comments/pvuf5t/ultimate_danganronpa_character_poll_results/

I understand that point. However, there's the fact that the 16 characters all have varying degrees of focus depending on which die first.

First guy who dies is obviously not gonna be as important as a guy who makes it out alive.

I'd say it depends. For example, I don't think the first Blackened of V3 really counts as a minor character since she's a Decoy Protagonist who you play as for most of the chapter. Likewise with the second victim of THH, since Chihiro ends up having an important influence on the plot from beyond the grave thanks to Alter Ego.

So here's my analysis of EnsembleDarkhorse.Danganronpa:

Edited by Zuxtron on Jun 24th 2023 at 3:47:04 PM

I was the one who put Aoi, since even then she doesn't get much focus for appearing that much. However, yeah she's rather important for appearing in the two games.

Seiko, i have doubts. She does get an episode for her and Ruruka's relationship, mostly, but i would say that she doesn't get that much screentime overall, and after her death she does not appear afterwards (not even in flashbacks), unlike Chihiro who does get to appear albeit as his AI.

I cut the most blatant of the misuse for now, I kept Seiko if you think her role is small enough compared to her popularity.

I know I'm a month late to the above discussion. I try to avoid this thread because arguing here is like ramming my head into a brick wall and it gets painful. But I am going to make one more try.

EDH is not intended to be restricted to minor characters only. It is the dark horse of the ensemble. It's in the page title, it's in the image, it's in the description, it's in most of the examples.

Cutting a character because they're "around" for the whole duration of a work is the most ridiculous reason I have seen yet. It says nothing about how important their role is. Do you think Firenze (Harry Potter) qualifies as a major character because he survives the entire series?

Edited by Vilui on Aug 2nd 2023 at 8:45:10 PM

Uhhhhhh... Firenze IS a minor character you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Uh, it actually is for minor or at least less important characters, tho. "Dark horse of the ensemble" doesn't mean anything as a phrase; it's the character that becomes more popular than their role in the series would suggest, so while it's not just "minor characters" it can't be for any character that plays a major role since they're usually supposed to be super popular.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 2nd 2023 at 3:49:27 PM

There is a difference between a minor character who is always around and a major character who is ways around. It's easy to tell the difference. A major or main character who is always can't be this to my understanding but a supporting or minor character who is always there can be. This trope is for minor or supporting characters who are surprisingly popular.

Edited by Bullman on Aug 2nd 2023 at 2:51:28 PM

On this page, one entry lists a character as an Ensemble Dark Horse while also acknowledging that he is a Base-Breaking Character. The person who re-added it makes the argument that the two tropes aren't mutually exclusive, even though the Ensemble Dark Horse page states "compare and contrast Base-Breaking Character". Is their reasoning valid?

The entry in question:

• Even though he isn't without controversy, Niles may be one of the most unexpectedly popular characters at this point. When he was first revealed, he didn't get much fanfare. Once it was revealed he'd be the Gay Option for a male Avatar, fans started to take a liking to him. His... interesting supports, particularly his one with Camilla, have resulted in a lot of (positive) notoriety. It doesn't hurt that he's pretty much the only bowman for quite a while on the Nohr route, where archers are very useful. This reflects in the poll results; he was ranked 7th for the most popular game in the Fates poll and peaked at 16th place on the first Choose Your Legends poll, which in turn earned him his spot as a DLC character in Fire Emblem Warriors.

Adding my two cents:

• Kiyotaka Ishimaru - a bit iffy, but I'd say he can stay. He's easily among the most popular characters of this game. Chapter 1 focuses on Makoto and Sayaka, others get rather surface-level introductions and aren't developed much more (with exceptions of the likes of Leon and Kyoko who get a bit more than surface level introduction). He then gets more focus in Chapter 2 thanks to his friendship with Mondo, but unlike Mondo he's not involved in the case. He then spends most of Chapter 3 in Heroic BSoD and he dies in this chapter.
• Chihiro Fujisaki - another one of the most popular characters of this game. I'm personally fine with those who died prior to Chapter 3 being listed (Kaede excluded). Especially here. DR1 was the shortest game, meaning the least screentime potential. Chihiro was one of those who didn't get to shine in Chapter 1. And he doesn't even get much focus before his death in Chapter 2 either. Most of his focus comes post-mortem. And I wouldn't count Alter Ego's screentime as his.
• Peko Pekoyama - Again, I'd say those who died in Chapter 1-2 (even 3 as a victim) are fair game (unless they're Kaede). Especially since Peko is The Stoic, so she rarely speaks, giving her very little screentime before she's revealed as the culprit of Chapter 2.
• Seiko Kimura - definitely can stay. She's easily the most popular new character and one of very few aspects of DR3 to be generally considered as entirely positive. She lasted 5 episodes, had 1 episode in Despair Arc, a cameo in the OVA (and was mentioned in the finale thanks to being Not Too Dead to Save the Day if you want to count it). That's 7/8 episodes (depending if you only count physical appearances) out of 25. Out of which only Episode 4 of Despair and Episode 5 of Future give her Character Focus (Episode 4 of Future also sorta does, but focuses her screentime on fight scenes with Izayoi, which also get outshined by Tengan and Munakata's fight scenes). And much like the entire Class 76th Trio, she doesn't really have any connection to the main cast (at best interacting with Nagito in Despair). I'd say that's minor enough.
• I'd also want to argue that Koichi Kizakura should either be brought back or we should at least start a debate about bringing him back. He's one of the most popular new characters. He survives 8 out of 12 episodes of Future and generally appears in 15 out of 25 episodes (7 in Future since Episode 7 focuses on UDG instead, 6 in Despair, and the OVA)... Sure, it seems important, but you gotta keep in mind the content of his appearances. He only had a silent cameo in the OVA. Throughout Despair Arc, he only gets minor appearances. Sure, Episode 1 and Episode 11 are important (the former explains why he's replaced with Chisa, the latter finally shows his promise to Jin). But even then, both of those get very little screentime. This continues throughout Future Arc, where he usually gets a couple of seconds per episode. Episode 8 is the only episode that truly gives him Character Focus. And even here it's only for the first half, as he dies halfway through and the rest of the episode focuses on Kyoko solving the mystery behind Izayoi's death (though he is mentioned by Ryota and Kyoko at the end). Sure, he had the connection to the main cast, but being the one who took Kirigiris' photo isn't much. Then again, he did save Kyoko's life... But to me, he comes off as a side character who sticks around for a while, usually getting a one-liner or two per episode. Is he really too important to be listed?
• Ultimate Imposter - this could be another debatable case, but I'm personally in favor of leaving him. The entire DR2 cast gets Demoted to Extra (aside from the main trio and Mikan to a lesser extent), and while he's definitely right behind Mikan in terms of screentime and importance, it's still not too much. He only gets Episode 5 as Character Focus. Then there's a single scene of focus in Episode 1, like everyone else. A brief chat with Chiaki outside of class in Episode 2, a short scene of letting Mikan know about Ryota's disappearance in Episode 7, a brief moment of overreacting to Nagito knowing where she is in Episode 8, revealing his true face in Episode 9, and hugging Ryota in the finale. Rest are minor appearances in the background as a group with his classmates. That's 1 episode of focus and 6 episodes of one brief scene per episode, out of all 25 episodes. Even if you judge based on the entire series and not just DR3, he still died first in the game, even if after getting some focus as The Leader.
• While I'm also somewhat torn, I'm leaning more towards removing Kaede Akamatsu. She was the protagonist for the demo, the Prologue, and Chapter 1 (minus its last parts). Sure, it might seem like not much compared to the remaining five chapters and Epilogue as Shuichi, but keep in mind V3 is the longest game. She's still had several hours worth of being a protagonist. Not just that, but this time was spent focused mostly on her. Kaede being The Leader and trying to fight against the killing game is possibly the biggest focus of Chapter 1. She's also The Lost Lenore to Shuichi and gets frequent mentions post-mortem and has a solid effect on his Character Development. I feel like, in spite of dying early on, she's too much of a major character to be counted. She's easily one of the five main characters of this entry next to Shuichi, Kokichi, Maki, and Kaito, and that's with her early death.
• Ryoma Hoshi - again, I'm personally fine with leaving those who died in Chapters 1-2 (or even 3 as victims specifically), Kaede excluded. Ryoma is also the least focused-on student in V3, with Kaede being the initial protagonist and Rantaro appearing in several flashbacks and his message appearing in Chapter 4 and 6, the latter of which also re-opens his case and reveals his connection to The Reveal of the game.

Others I haven't mentioned I agree with and have nothing more to add.

Edited by ArtDraw12 on Aug 17th 2023 at 7:34:08 PM

Felt the need to discuss the entries on the Parasite (2019) page;

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • In a film already full of fantastic performances, Park So-dam as the cool, competent Ki-jeong has been particularly well-received, complete with her "Jessica Jingle" ("Jessica, only child, Illinois, Chicago...") reaching borderline meme status. Main character, though she receives less focus than her brother does.
  • Bong's English interpreter for the full promotion cycle, Sharon Choi, became the real-life example as well.^note Bong does speak English, although he tends to use Korean in foreign interviews. Real person, not a character in the film.
  • Park Yeon-kyo, the ditzy matriarch of the Park family, is important in the story mainly as the Rich in Dollars, Poor in Sense enabler for the Kim family. But many viewers have cited Cho Yeo-jeong's portrayal of her as a highlight of the film, giving Mrs. Park some charm as well as effectively playing her cluelessness for laughs, while also giving hints of a darker side to her personality. She might qualify; given that the Kim family are the protagonists, while the Park family are essentially (important) side characters, but she's still a character of relative importance to the plot, so I'm not completely certain.

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on Aug 31st 2023 at 5:12:15 AM

I could possibly contend that the sister-character's popularity outshines her relative importance, but I would also say that this is an Intended Audience Reaction; she was supposed to be charming to the audience to make the ending work.

The middle one can be cut.

As for the final one, the reasoning is... solid, but I don't think she's particularly popular? She's objectively the least malicious adult in the movie and well-acted, but I don't think she's as much of a breakout as she would need to be to qualify.

So i got a character from Homestar Runner:

• Strong Bad started out as a villain who was always doomed to lose to Homestar. Now he's debatably the most popular character, and definitely one of the most recognisable. By 2003, he had become the face of the website.

Yeah, he doesn't for this. Even before he hit it big Strong Bad was still heavily prominent as the shows Big Bad who would constantly annoy everyone. He fits Breakout Character farmore.

From YMMV.The Octonauts:

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • Of the main cast, Peso and Shellington are very popular among older audiences.
    • Peso is way too major to possibly be an example. Shellington is at least second-tier, so if his popularity eclipsed Barnacles, Kwazii, or Peso then he could likely count, but I don't think it does.
  • Shellington's sister Pearl and nephew Periwinkle is similarly well-beloved, especially with the release of Octonauts: Above & Beyond, in which they have much larger roles.
    • As-written, this comes across as "well, they're somewhat popular." Needs more detail.
  • Calico Jack, Kwazii's legendary pirate grandfather, is a favourite to many older fans. Similarly to Pearl, he was also given a much larger role in Above and Beyond.
    • Ditto.

Y'all may want to check out my latest ATT about a Pokémon removal I'm questioning.

In the lack of response for over a week, readding it.

Found these at YMMV.Slow Damage

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • Among the four art models Towa encounters, Ikuina is easily the most well-liked becausee of his personality, his darker Hidden Depths, and his "euphoric session" with Towa (which is recognized to be one of the Signature Scenes of the visual novel). Many even wish that he had joined the main character line-up as a fifth love interest. since Ikiuna is a fairly major supporting character due to the Euphoric sessions, he doesnt count
  • Much like Gunji and Kiriwar and Virus and Trip, Kotarou and Mayu are fairly popular for their entertaining interactions and for being an interestingly refreshing subversion of what fans expected given the background of the aforementioned two duos. Too major to count
  • Eiji also has fans due to being a sprightly tech nerd and an eccentric explosion enthusiast. The Reveal about him being The Mole for Madarame, Sakaki and the mainland police all around the same time and how he does what he does purely for amusement's sake has only increased his popularity with the fanbase. Sam as above
  • It's hard to find someone who dislikes Igarashi when his cordial and courteous personality leaves no reason for anyone to have a negative opinion of him— something that even applies to the In-Universe cast's opinion of the man. Unsure
  • Rei's trio of friends-slash-Deathmatch teammates are also beloved by fans, especially Western fans, because of how they're both highly camp and very friendly while still being anything but simpering wimps when push comes to shove. Unsure

YMMV.The Cat In The Hat

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • Mrs. Kwan has become this due to being one of the film's less annoying characters.
  • Mr. Humberfloob has a following of sorts mainly due to Sean Hayes' energy being put into him and the infamous "You're FIRRRRRRRRRRRRRE-DUH!" meme.

First one is purely complaining. For context, Mrs. Kwan is the babysitter that Sally and Conrad's mom hired for them, and she’s pretty much asleep for most of the film. The second one with Mr. Humberfloob looks alright though.

Kind of funny how some people use ED entries to complain.

From YMMV.Every Frame A Pause

• Ensemble Dark Horse: Of the EFAP guests, Shadiversity is a bit of an oddball, with his channel's main focus being on weaponry and tactics, with some connection of tactics to film and pure film analysis being few and far in between. Fans loved him for his informative and vast knowledge on weaponry and breaking down of the frequent use of Hollywood Tactics.

Is this about a real life person? Because this trope is No Real Life Examples, Please!. It also doesn't explain how he could be considered an minor or supporting character. Thoughts?

Edited by Bullman on Dec 14th 2023 at 1:04:46 PM