Duplicate Trope: Ryu And Ken

Hawks and Eagles.
Lennon and Mc Cartney.
Anacondas and Pythons.

Beelzebub.

edited 8th May '13 12:01:39 PM by m8e

Told you it was a mess

Just went and modified the description to be more fitting to our current one... still using the SF names for the moment, but anyone have any thoughts? Am I missing something big?

A common gameplay trope seen in Fighting Games, where two characters are given equal or similar abilities, and often wind up as being the main characters for the series. Their movesets will be similar but they may be on different ends of the spectrum in terms of speed, power, or defense, have a few different or modified moves, but whats important is that familiarity with one character will be a boon in playing the other. Sure, Ken's Kamehamehadoken may be weaker and ice-based, but it's still essentially the same move as Ryu's Fire-based Kamehamehadoken.

The reason for this trope is several-fold. First off, laziness. It's much easier copying and pasting another fighter's gameplay and tweaking him into a new one than making an all new one. Secondly, it establishes a connection between the characters right off the bat. In some cases, the two characters may have an implicit rivalry, if not outright hatred for one another. However, sometimes their competitive spirits don't stop them from being friends.

If both characters are playable, both may be Jack of All Stats. Even if they have the identical movesets, they can't be considered Ditto Fighters, since they only emulate one other character.

In many cases, a game's Ryu And Ken are Shotoclones; however, this is not always the case, and not every Shotoclone is a Ryu And Ken.

The Ken might later be subject to Divergent Character Evolution to differentiate him from the Ryu.

Some games will even expand the concept further with other character types:

• The Sakura is also similar to Ryu and Ken, but is overall smaller (usually a kid or teenager), weaker, and usually has less effective attacks. They may add new twists to the attacks to compensate, however, such as being faster or having moves that the Ryu and Ken do not. They will often be female (typically presented as the smaller but faster female counterpart to the male Ryu and Ken), though this is not a universal rule.
• The Akuma is basically the same character type upgraded to a Game-Breaker. He has the same moves, but he will move faster, hit harder, and more often than not has much higher priority for his moves plus nasty little tricks and variations added to them. They will usually be the Final Boss or Bonus Boss of the game before they are playable, and will be hard as hell to beat.
• The Dan Hibiki is the Joke Character or Lethal Joke Character version. Expect weak yet hilarious attacks.

Two things. First, it is irrelevant whether the clones are the main characters are not. And second, the Dan/Sakura/etc are not special cases, but simply more instances of this trope (so Street Fighter has 5 clones with similar movesets). No need to point out extra names for these; the trope is not a thesis about Street Fighter. (edit) and unlike what the first sentence states, this trope is not about character appearance.

Note that we are intending to rename this page, as the current name is misleading and has led to substantial abuse.

edited 8th May '13 12:31:56 PM by Spark9

Yeah, I know. I'm just lazy.

I do think it's worthwhile to include common variations, at the very least.

Sure, but since the trope is "multiple characters with similar moves only faster/stronger than one another" then "another such character that is weaker but faster" is not a common variation, but the exact same thing.

Good call.

edited 8th May '13 12:40:24 PM by Larkmarn

I've been looking at the non-gaming examples, and the closest to the trope are probably the wrestling examples. They're characters who use a certain set of notable moves, so two wrestlers using the same setup would be notable. However, that's still fluid, and it's not really used in the same way as in games.

Others, like the Buffy examples, are just characters with similarities, or similar powers. But I don't think "similar powers" is a good definition of the trope. That's essentially just a base idea that's copied, not the actual work of making it work as a coherent character.

... I hate the Buffy examples. "They're this trope because they're both girls! And use stakes! To kill vampires!"

Then again, I hate most of the examples.

No, Buffy is definitely not an example.

If a comic contains, say, two characters with Flying Brick powers (such as Superman and Superwoman / Superboy / Superhorse / whatever else we had in the Silver Age), would that count?

And does Ryu and ken count?

I haven't seen the Anime or Western Animation but I aassume they share the same things in these as in the games.

edited 8th May '13 1:22:59 PM by m8e

I say make it a pure video game trope, personally.

Nope.

I would restrict the definition: the characters should not only have similar techniques, but have some sort of rivalrous relationship, though the plot need not emphasize it. In Fighting Games, the rivalry can be largely implied simply by having both characters compete in the same tournament.

Why would you add narrative requirements to a gameplay trope?

Because narrative and gameplay aren't as independent as you think. Even Excuse Plots can imply various things. And if we're allowing pro wrestling examples, this can't be strictly a "gameplay" trope anyway.

What I mean to say is that this trope should be more specific than "character A's moveset is a clone of character B's," which would take in all sorts of two-player co-op games.

The trope is "in a game that allows you to select a variety of characters, some of those characters play (almost) the same". That doesn't mean that Checkers is now an example even if the white pieces move in the same way as the black pieces do.

Yeah, the trope is "characters that play similarly, but not identically".

As far as gameplay vs narrative tropes, there's some overlap, yes, but only in the sense that gameplay tropes describing unit capabilities can also be used as characterization in non-game works. eg, Glass Cannon is primarily a video game thing (character with high attack but low defense stats) but can also be applied to characters (someone who hits hard, but takes hits like a chump). Same thing with this trope.

I think I saw somebody use the comparison of Ganondorf and Captain Falcon in Super Smash Bros. Melee (the only fighting game I've ever played much, mind)? The two of them have basically the same moveset but play almost completely different: Falcon's a Lightning Bruiser while Ganon's a Mighty Glacier. Or take Pikachu and Pichu: the one's a decent Fragile Speedster/Glass Cannon and the other's a Joke Character since his electric attacks damage him.

edited 9th May '13 7:46:49 AM by StarSword

Right, but they're obvious tweaks of each other. Ganondorf is Captain Falcon but slower, stronger, and heavier. Pichu is Pikachu but faster, weaker, and isn't immune to his own attacks.

That's actually a good informal definition. If a character can described as "basically [another character], but with a few differences" then those two characters are Ryu and Ken.

... in a setting where some characters DON'T fit that description, of course.

Huh, eould Sub Zero and Scorpion fit here anymore? They're palette swaps, but in the original game, they shared no moves. The only thing tying them together in terms of gameplay was they both have a move for incapacitating an enemy.

edited 9th May '13 9:05:49 AM by Larkmarn

Sounds like they wouldn't count then, if there's no actual mechanical similarity, no.

I am seeing two overlapping ideas here. One is different characters who share the same move set with differeng appearences and possibly a different streangth balance, which would be a straight-up gameplay trope. This would be Ryu and Ken, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon, etc etc

The other is a closly related trope about characters who have an adversarial relationship, either freindly rivals OR a enemies, who have the same moves, powers, technique, etc to highlight their rivalry, which can be multi-media but may not work well in many genres. This would again include Ken and Ryu (and Ryu and Akuma), but would not include Ganondorf and Captain Falcon, but might include Fox and Falco (in Smash Bros). It could also include a pair of superhero genre characters with the same powers like Captain Marvel and Black Adam or Superman and Zodd, or fantasy genre characters who use the same weapons/ fight style (I would limit it to characters the work notes as being similar or characters in a work where practically everyone has a unique weapon/ fighting style) like Drizzt and Artemis Entreri. A little like Mirror Boss or Evil Knockoff, but also involving friendly rivals or other situations without a clear good/evil dynamic and also not about characters who are duplicates in anyway except ability.

edited 9th May '13 2:44:22 PM by willthiswork

The first is this trope. The second is covered by other tropes, like Not So Different and Friendly Rival.

Yeah, we're just talking about the first description for this trope.