Most misunderstood Ron The Death Eater characters

Forgive me if there's already a thread on this, but we've all watched our shows and there are some characters who are hated and demonized and they don't deserve it. Here's my list:

• Rainbow Dash and Princess Celestia from My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. To me, I find it understandable why fans don't like Rainbow Dash because of how arrogant and boastful she can be sometimes, but fans demonize her and act as if she doesn't have any redeeming qualities, which is untrue. To me, she reminds me of Eddy from Ed, Edd n Eddy. Her and Eddy both act overconfident, but deep down, they are depressed and only act like jerks to hide it. (Rainbow Dash showed signs of this in "Sonic Rainboom"). To me, Dash and Trixie are so much alike. As for Princess Celestia, I find it jarring how fans demonize her for sending Luna to the moon, when it was Nightmare Moon she sent. I don't think Celestia was happy with what she did anyway.

edited 24th Apr '13 11:43:57 AM by MsCC93

Eh, while I think they overdid the Jerkass Butt-Monkey role in Season Two a little, Rainbow Dash never came off as Ron the Death Eater to me. Heroes that gain my bile are usually overly self righteous (at least in the sense of being more than the narrative makes them out to be). RD is more just an egotist, an 'id'. She likes herself and can be a tad bullying, but she's not delusional about it, and neither are the writers. Even in "Boast Busters" she was the one heckler who was outright honest about being a hypocrite to Trixie. Twilight and AJ are the nearest to self righteous characters, but even then they are deliberate and ineffectual about it most of the time (though I admit MMDW did bug me a little because of this).

It helps she also has a lot more redeeming aspects than Eddy, and as of Season Three has had some plausible Character Development.

Princess Celestia doesn't really bother me. She does run the risk of having a 'holier than thou' attitude given her saintly disposition, but there's very little so far to prove she's full of crap. She's more just the generic ultimate authority figure.

I'll admit I'm not all that bothered by Jerry of Tom And Jerry, at least not to the extent others go on about him. There are a handful of shorts he does come off as a Jerkass Designated Hero, but I think it's moderated by the fact his grey morality was lampshaded a lot more frequently than most other cartoons of that era and usually gave him fallibility whenever he went too far. I actually liked how the shorts interchanged which side could be more rootable and there was actually some suspension as to who might win due to Tom's occasional victories. "Fit To Be Tied" is a good example that constantly twists around according to which side is more sympathetic to a rather cathartic degree.

edited 24th Apr '13 12:11:37 PM by Psi001

Ron himself. He doesn't deserve all that.

Honestly, Benson. Yes, he's a hothead and can be unfair at times, but most of the time his issues with Mordecai and Rigby (especially Rigby) are completely genuine.

On that note, Mordecai as well. I've seen several people call him just as bad as Rigby when it comes to screw ups and slacking, but in my opinion, Mordecai is much more dutiful and, quite frankly, sane than Rigby. Half the time, he only gets involved in Rigby's schemes because Rigby forces him into it via blackmail, bribery, etc.

Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.

I agree that Rainbow Dash did become more of a jerk than usual in Season 2, especially in episodes like "Dragon Quest" and "The Mysterious Mare Do Well." I hated how she and Rarity made fun of Spike and in the Mare Do Well episode, she was pretty irritating (YMMV) when she spent most of the episode bragging (which may be the reason why I haven't watched that episode again). I also hate Apple Jack's behavior sometimes because she can be very stubborn and prideful sometimes. What bugs me about her RTDE treatment sometimes is when fans say that she doesn't stick to her element, because it's impossible to be honest all the time and Apple Jack isn't a habitual liar (I'm not trying ti justify Apple Jack being dishonest tho). At least Rainbow Dash did become better in Season 3 (Wonderbolts Academy, anyone??)

As for Celestia, it's very true that she does have that type of attitude. The only problem I have with her is that she comes off as mary-sueish, but she's still a good person, so I don't hate her.

As for Jerry, it doesn't bother me either, considering how many times he has gotten away with framing Tom for things Spike tells him not to do and him winning in at least 75-80% of their confrontations.

edited 24th Apr '13 12:31:21 PM by MsCC93

To be honest, I don't think anything that the two screwed up were entirely Mordecai's fault; it is either both of them or just Rigby.

Rigby himself screws up a lot and he's been punished before due to said screw-ups (some of them even leading to death) but he seems to know right away he made the wrong choice and wants to prevent said consequences. And due to character development, he makes less and less of these kind of stupid choices. I think it's more or less due to his curiosity that gets him in trouble.

my drawing blog ya'll UPDATES 10 TIMES A MONTH WOW, THIS IS STRAIGHT UP MUH SOGGY KNEE

Meh, Spike insulted her first, and under much more dire circumstances (extra points for using the Harsher in Hindsight "Rainbow Crash" insult too). RD doesn't bother me I guess because for the large part, she is the writers' acknowledged Jerkass and she usually gets her comeuppance. At the same time she's also a Butt-Monkey to several other characters' antics and usually they get away with it scot free due to being the designated 'nicer' foil (eg. Fluttershy's Disproportionate Retribution at the start of the same episode, endless scenes with Pinkie, the aforementioned MMDW).

There was a point they seemed to be diluting her to her negative qualities, but I feel that was less her becoming a Designated Hero and more they were simplifying her into too much of a Straw Loser to the others. As said though, it did get reversed somewhat by Season Three.

As for AJ, I kinda like her in temperamental mode, at least when it's intentional and has repercussions (which is about 90% of the time). I actually think she got kinda bland as a result of them downplaying her overdefensive streak.

Yeah I agree, Celestia's under the 'blandly good' hero archetype, but at least fails to be hypocritical about it. There are heroes that don't really endear to me over the villains due to being too boring or infallible, but usually I still feel they deserved to win (eg. most of the Looney Tunes heroes).

edited 24th Apr '13 12:45:37 PM by Psi001

I also think Rainbow Dash gets her share of undeserved hate (which is odd, because I normally can't stand arrogant characters). She's not nearly as full of herself and condescending to others as other characters of her type are, and in my opinion she underwent a degree of Flanderization in seasons 2 and 3; she was always relatively levelheaded and sociable in season 1.

Celestia being given a Ron the Death Eater treatment I can actually understand, up to a point; without some playful Trickster Mentor moments she runs the risk of just being another infiinitely benevolent and flat Big Good.

edited 24th Apr '13 2:07:15 PM by Robotnik

As said though, flat Big Good characters, while not really desirable characters, aren't really offensive, at least not unless they have some hypocritical quality to them that isn't called out on. The worst thing Celestia has done is punished and restrained two unrepentant demi gods, and it was made clear she had next to no other choice.

The show actually has a tendency to take character archetypes that often tend to get developed badly and handle them to a more enjoyable degree. I've seen rather irritating or downright unlikeable renditions of nearly all of the mane cast's archetypes that could fit the trope.

edited 25th Apr '13 11:30:49 AM by Psi001

Oh, that's old news. Now they're demonizing Celestia for tricking Twilight into all that stuff that happened in "Magical Mystery Cure" that Twilight didn't even really ask for, as well as generally risking so many lives on Twilight happening to find a way to save the day instead of preparing actual reinforcements. ("Yes, an entire kingdom is at stake, but this time I'm going to make it a test that you have to complete the mission without asking for anyone else's help. wink-wink hint-hint you're actually gonna need help and I won't hold it against you")

I liked a lot of the Chip N Dale shorts. Their Screwy Squirrel moments seem kinda exagerrated (there were a few times they bugged another character first but it was more often due to being a curious oblivious animal than deliberately meaning harm). Similar to Jerry they were just being assholes the odd time but at least didn't get off completely scot free and had a tendency to take as much as they dished out, against Donald anyway. Pluto sometimes came off as too pitiful against them, but even then he gleefully tried to torch them to death in one short. At the very least they were one of the better handled of the 'main character vs mischievous animal' staple that pretty much took over the Disney shorts (and admittedly turned Donald into a Draco in Leather Pants).

I do kinda agree they would have been less insufferable if they lost at least once however.

edited 24th Apr '13 6:27:33 PM by Psi001

Chip and Dale mostly came off as insufferable not necessarily because they were invincibly vindictive (though they did sometimes appear that way), but because ideal outcome of a Donald Duck short is for don to suffer - so they always end with his adversaries winning in as humiliating a way as possible.

It's why the triplets were written as being unbeatably obnoxious (before they started making shorts where they are more or less observers to Don humiliating himself), and why eventually they started having Donald get victimized by tricksters even when he isn't even doing anything to provoke them - and unlike Tom and Jerry, they rarely had the rule of Jerry generally losing in the rare occasions that he was the one who started the fight (though even Tom and Jerry had exceptions to that)

edited 24th Apr '13 7:18:20 PM by KnownUnknown

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

As said, it would have served as some sort of humanization for Donald to get the last laugh on them at least once. I know Donald is said to claim a victory more times than is believed, but Disney did really overdo it to the poor guy at times. It was hardly just Chip N Dale that were guilty of that however. If anything they were the better written examples since they at least took as much from Donald as they dished out, the only rule was they dealt the winning blow and even then they supplied a couple of truce endings for him. The way people go on about them, you'd think they were the far worst of the lot (a title which probably goes to the orphans or the triplets).

I agree a Designated Hero comes off a lot more insufferable if they never get put off their pedestal. Jerry doesn't bother me as badly because he could actually lose (sometimes even when Tom deserved punishment, which is far less complained about) while Chip N Dale, while always getting the last laugh specifically, at least were pathos laden Butt Monkeys for most of the short beforehand. There was at least some acknowledgement in their cases that they deserved some sort of punishment at times, indicating to the audience to take it more as a grey morality war than a clear case of good vs evil.

edited 24th Apr '13 7:59:29 PM by Psi001

Pema. "Oh, she expressed a wish to have one non-bending kid, clearly she must be the single most evil individual in the whole universe, especially because she stole Tenzin away from Lin!"

Mako as well. I will admit that some of his decisions were outright insensitive to Asami, but there's a difference between "impulsive dude incapable of dealing with his emotions" and "rapist, homophobe, sexist and domestic abuser".

edited 25th Apr '13 4:28:08 AM by peryton

Got to love shipping-related hate.

Most recently I'll go with La'Gaan from Young Justice. He got near universal hatred for the fanbase all because he was Miss Martitan's rebound guy. Oh, and he had the gall to get upset after Superboy baited him into a confrontation. What a jerk. <_<

I really have no comment on that situation.

Yeah I agree Spike and Dash were being jerks at that time. The problem with Rainbow Dash in season 2 was the deconstruction of her jerkass traits, which did backfire on her, and made her look more of a jerk. Dash doesn't bother me either because at least her attitude isn't ignored by the other characters, and she gets called out on it often.

I agree with Apple Jack. However, for me, I like Apple Jack because she's determined and her flaws do get deconstructed (Fall Weather Friends and The Last Roundup, anyone?)

I think in hindsight however, it did her a lot of good, since unlike so many other hero characters, the Aesops handed to her stuck for the large part, and she shown genuine growth in personality, arguably the most outside Twilight Sparkle. Hell she shown this in some of the earliest episodes. Remember how she was a tool to Fluttershy in Dragonshy? Come Hurricane Fluttershy...

Curiously both episodes you mentioned were written by the same writer. In fact I think Amy Rogers did most of AJ's best spotlight episodes (see also Applebuck Season). Maybe the fact Rogers did less AJ scenes in her later work is what led her to dilute somewhat personality wise (I know certain writers can be more or less able of working with characters in a fictional work, hense so many cases of Depending on the Writer). I'm maybe drifting however, since AJ isn't really a Ron either way.

I heard Rarity was viewed as something of one early on, due to having her spotlight episodes so late in the first season, and thus not getting her characterization developed outside being a comedic snob in the first few episodes. Suited For Success mostly did away with it though.

And of course there was all the "@*#@ OMG PRINCESS TWILIGHT! #*@?~&^ ALICORN!!! @>? RUINED FOREVER!!" ordeal not too long ago.

edited 25th Apr '13 11:28:56 AM by Psi001

I am actually one of the people who dislikes Laggan but its because I find him needlessly confrontational and petty.

That said I don't outright hate him I just wish he had gotten less screen time in favor of less developed members of the team.

edited 25th Apr '13 11:23:18 AM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins

You do raise a good point about RD and Apple Jack. I also agree about her and Fluttershy's friendship. To me, I think Pinkie Pie needs more lessons than Rainbow Dash, here's why. To me, Pinkie reminds me of a certain character from another cartoon who is never allowed to be wrong, no matter how ridiculous or annoying he or she is acting. Pinkie gets her way all of the time, which is innfuriating.

As for Rarity, fans said that they liked her after "A Dog and a Pony Show" after she was able to hold her own against the Diamond Dogs.

For the "AT" issue, yes people are still bitching about it -___-

I think it's more it's easier to place Aesops onto the abrasive reckless Jerk with a Heart of Gold types than most other characters, hence we have characters like Wheeler or Satam Sonic. At least in the case of FIM the other ponies do still get their share of moments of being wrong and having to learn, rather than just being a perpetual Designated Hero to one such as these. I mean how many characters have we seen like Twilight Sparkle who are just always right and never get their dignity scaved?

Pinkie does get Aesops, and for a large amount of Season Three was actually something of a Butt-Monkey. I think the problem to some may be that the episode that specifically called her out on her No Sense of Personal Space sorta flip flopped around, making it unclear whether she really learned anything from it. Things still bend to her cartoony will, but at the same time, I think she would be an empty character if they didn't to some extent. She at least doesn't outright destroy lives with it.

Hell even Fluttershy has gotten lessons concerning actually acting like a jerk to others. Fluttershy! I think it's a lot easier to swallow the ponies' odd Karma Houdini moments since they still at least get the token moment their hypocrisy is called out somewhere along the line, something most shows wouldn't even bother with.

I think this is why I prefer Ensemble Cast series where every character gets their flaws made a key point in the story, compared to those where it's just one character always having to screw up and learn, aside from of course the higher likeliness of repeating the same lessons over and over.

edited 27th Apr '13 1:44:30 PM by Psi001

Wasn't RTDE changed into an exclusively fanfic trope?

Not that I was for the change, personally.

I think Haruhi gets way too much hate. Yes, she is bitchy, selfish and treat the people around her like toys - but I just can't seem to hate her. She is just such an interesting character.

I guess since it's the sort of the opposite title to a Draco in Leather Pants (which still is yet to be limited to fanfics) it's easier to use the title. Alternatively it could be Unintentionally Unsympathetic I suppose.

There was a crowner to change DILP into a fanfic trope and move all examples (along with all removed RTDE examples) over to Misaimed Fandom, but was either never acted on or noticed by very many people.