Shoehorning in the ensembles

^ Lumping them has pros and cons. Pros: more eyes on the thread!, neater forum overall, less confusing to find correct thread Cons: more confusing to follow, less focus (although once we move onto other emsembles this thread is going to get confusing anyway!)

@48, Thank you Discar. Do you think either of those groups of girls qualify as a trio in the context of the show?

@47, Looking over the works page the only real 'evidence' that the wife role is being filled correctly are repete assertions that the character is stoic and capable. That might work, especially if she is being contrasted with the other two, but I need more info to do a better write up. IDK, it looks like it is free to watch, maybe I will do that.

edited 10th Jan '13 1:48:08 PM by willthiswork

Since Five-Man Band has it's own dedicated thread, let's not lump that one in here. We can move on to other ensembles in ths one once we're done with Three Faces of Eve, and alter the thread title to suit the current topic.

On the Vandread thing, The Wife does not have to be married or involved with anyone to qualify. She is wifely, not "a wife" the same way the the Mother in The Hecate Sisters, or the Team Mom has to be ''maternal" but doesn't have to literally be anyone's mother. The characterization of Maia as "a consummate professional" sounds like she's at least close to it.

edited 10th Jan '13 2:38:41 PM by Madrugada

@ 51 - If by 'stoic and capable' you mean 'emotionless and intelligent' then that's not the wife. I don't know what info it is that you need, on a show you mean?

@ 52 & 46 - Meia Gisborn being a motherly consummate fighter pilot and professional officer isn't the wife, especially when it tells of her her lack of domesticity.

Another disqualifier, I believe, is being male. I doubt there are any examples on the list of the trio of the boy/boyish man, husband/family man, and seducer, but if there are they should be their own trope.

The Three Faces of Adam, this trope's male counterpart, has different roles.

@ 51 (regarding School Rumble): If I was sure, I would have just added it back with a note on the discussion page. In both sets, Eri's the problem. As a tsundere, she spends half her time beating up her love interest and the other half trying to seduce him. So while I think she can fit the seductress role pretty well, she's definitely not the child (she has her naive and ditzy moments, but they're centered around her being a sheltered rich girl rather than childish and inexperienced).

The "the not-quite Spear Counterpart" can be whatever it wants. It's more like The Hecate Sisters than this. Madrugada (mod) has said, "This is an Always Female trope. If one or more of them is male it isn't this trope." Makes sense too. This is about being very feminine.

When we're done cleaning the page we should clean the links that didn't get to stay on the page. There are 309. We should also make sure all the good examples are out there.

Actually, lexicon, the Saiyuki example falls under Gender-Inverted Trope.

edited 11th Jan '13 5:23:17 AM by R.G.

A Gender-Inverted example is different from a Spear Counterpart example, though.

The former is the exact same trope, but the other gender, and often specifically to make a point of some sort, like exploring gender differences or potential Double Standards.

The latter is a trope of its own for the other gender, and often a little different, as it takes gender differences into account.

If it's a partial inversion or Spear Counterpart I probably wouldn't count it, since then it's most likely shoehorning, or an accidental example. If it's a male character who's treated as a female, or vice versa, it's a little more likely to fit, as a character treated as a female would be more likely to follow at least some female tropes.

@ 53, I was thinking if by stoic the page meant 'stable' or 'sensible' or something like that it may be correct. The thing is I cannot tell from the write up as is. I would have to get more information to determine if it is correct or not. It works page also indicates she is a big sister type, which might include wifely attributes or it might not include wifely attributes. Like loyalty, realiablity, level-headedness etc could be assoiciated with a big-sister type of character as well as a wife-type.

In regards to gender inverted version, I think that a rare few cases of bishie-filled girl-appeal shows this trope can be done with men, but it would be vey rare. My inclination is to allow male example but only if they are very clean fits.

I beleive the Saiyuki example is the only gender-invert on the page as of right now. I debated removing it, but I am familer with the anime version so I rewrote it instead. I will of course remove it if popular consensis is for it to go, but it seems pretty dead-on to me. Hakkai is practically a male Yamato Nadeshiko, if such a thing is even possible, Goku is an childish, optimistic, overly enthusistic ball of adorable, and most of Gojyo's side plots involve him boning a girl or trying to bone a girl or doing something for a girl he just boned.

edited 11th Jan '13 10:47:08 AM by willthiswork

If you want to keep any male examples take it up with the moderator Madrugada. A male Yamato Nadeshiko? He's domestic, demure, and respects male authority figures? The problem with including men is that it would complicate things since we would be taking a very feminine idea and either making the men very feminine or making them very masculine. Would the 'husband' be a House Husband or a manly, hard working, bread winner?

On the last question, I'd say the former. The latter just isn't the same trope, since it describes a different type of person. It's more or less like my previous post: the difference between a gender inversion and a spear counterpart.

Problem is, some spear counterparts may just be more-common-than-you-think gender inversions. For example, I preferred the old James Bondage name to Distressed Dude, because now I can't see how it's any different from "it's a Distressed Damsel BUT IT'S A DUDE! (Especially if we're talking about Non-Action Guy partners to Action Girls where the scenario plays out, near as I can tell, exactly the same. Actually, I wonder if several different tropes are being lumped here, but that's an issue for TRS when the backlog clears up.)

For now let's delete any male examples where the 'wife' doesn't qualify as the domestic, demure, respectful of male authority figures, House Husband type.

Are we ready to make the edit for the Final Fantasy examples?

@60, Pretty much, absolutley, and yeah. He is even the most traditionaly Japanese looking of the lot.

I agree that if we do allow male examples they need to fit the trope perfectly, not 'the male equivilent' of the trope, whatever that would be. A gender invert wife would still have to be a traditional wife type, not a traditional husband type, and the child needs to be childish in a sweet way, not a mischeivious 'boys will be boys' sort of way, and the seductress needs to be seductive in a pysically attractive, sexy clothing, 'hey I could show you a good time' sort of way and not a James Bondy sort of way (and that needs to be attractive in-universe, not a joke).

I am not married to the idea of allowing male examples or anything, I just do not think they are really contributing to the shoehorning issue, seeing as how there is only the one up there right now and I am of the opinion that it fits.

As for the FF example, yeah, I think we can pop it in as-is and if someone wants to do a write up for other trios qualifying they can always be added later.

edited 14th Jan '13 8:45:57 AM by willthiswork

If Hakkai is a male Yamato Nadeshiko (domestic, demure, and respects male authority figures) it needs better context then 'smartest and most even-tempered'. It appears to be inaccurate context as well as apparently, "He is generally the most polite and intelligent of the group, but even they find him terrifying when he's angry." Neither even tempered people nor an ideal wife would massacre a people.

I don't mean to derail the thread but I just finished a wick clean up on Yamato Nadeshiko that featured Rare Male Examples without context and lacked the 'traditional japanese archetype' criteria. That definition could more easily fit House Wife.

I just knocked The Lord of the Rings and Journey To The West out of Four-Temperament Ensemble. The first example relied on ignoring Gandalf and splitting the rest of the Fellowship into two separate groups. The second admitted that one of the four didn't actually fit his assigned role in the trope. (It's also pretty bizarre to argue that a trope clearly based on medieval European theories of personality was used in a Chinese story centuries earlier.)

edited 19th Jan '13 11:02:38 AM by ArcadesSabboth

I took out Firefly from the Four-Girl Ensemble for multiple characters fitting multiple roles and there being no sweetly naive one. On the subject of the Four-Temperament Ensemble, shouldn't the quote be removed since Raphael, who is cool but rude, doesn't fit any of them and there is no Phlegmatic one?

I'm still going to take out the ZCE and obviously bad context examples from The Three Faces of Eve. If anyone has any good examples to put in please do so because we're going to have very few left after this is over.

The Team, which is the broad supertrope for most if not all of these has finally launched!

I took out all the Zero Context Example I saw in The Three Faces of Eve (there was a lot of them) and also Change 123 for admitting it doesn't fit the wife role.

Change 123 certainly has three distinct personalities, but they're not along that trope. They're more like childish, boyish, and lady-like.

edited 22nd Jan '13 1:21:08 AM by AnotherDuck

I took out what I recognized from Three Amigos for not being the main character, best friend of the same sex, and best friend of the opposite sex. Most of them had friendship replaced by romance or family and one had three characters of the same gender. If anyone can take out what you recognize that's bad or add context to what's good that would help.

Well that's a lot of Zero Context Examples...

edited 23rd Jan '13 1:31:22 AM by AnotherDuck

I did what little I could.

I don't think the To Kill A Mockingbird example counts, mostly because I only really remember Jem and Scout as main characters, but I wasn't sure enough to cut it.

Scout narrates, Jem's her brother, and Dill is their friend who, I believe, lives with them for a while. He's clearly included in their games, is the only child friend we hear of consistently throughout the story, and I'd say he is the third part of a trio, so they fit the trope. It has been a little while since I read it too, though.