The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

Discar watches some anime, but I don't know if he's really a huge fan of it. I suspect by anime fan they meant someone who actually posts on the anime forum frequently, so I have my guesses.

<raises eyebrow> How can I be sure that either part of your statement is the truth? Because I have serious doubt that the mods would place an "evil asshole" on the panel.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

If we're nominating anime fans, I nominate Pyrite :P

Or Dorkus. Or Grain. Basically anyone from the Anime Theme Song Game thread fu fu fu fu fu fu fu.

I'd think nominations are closed. There is no room for a Sixth Ranger on the 5P... not at this point. Also: WTF, mate?*

Anyway, dragging this back to something more relevant: I've had no issue with the majority of the decisions made by the panel, except for a couple of early cases (entering Dead Horse Flogging territory) where I'm not sure if the full body of evidence was taken into account. But given the flow of more recent discussions, I think the panel's starting to find its footing, so no major issue there.

edited 11th May '12 7:17:24 PM by Pyrite

Not a substitute for a formal medical consultation.

For as bitter as Martello comes of as, he has been fair about many things reviewed here.

I'm something of an anime geek, but I still wouldn't want to go through all of this. There are some things I'd like to give my word on (Most of it PG-13/T for TV 14 etc. stuff I would defend), but other then Otomedius (which I apologize for bringing it up again) they haven't been flagged yet.

"Pancakes. Oh, I blew it." - Joel Hodgson Nobody better lay a Butterfinger on my 3DS!

Eh, neither would I.

Maybe those early cases might be re-reviewed far later once they finish what they got to look at.

That is, if there really is evidence for those that could cast those works in an entirely different light.

edited 11th May '12 7:17:16 PM by Raidouthe21st

We Are Our Avatars Forever (Now on Discord by invitation, PM)

Yeah. I'd guess the more pressing issues would be everything else on the list at this point.

Not a substitute for a formal medical consultation.

I'm a big fan of Stare Decisus in this regard.

If I wasn't on the staff, I'd've volunteered.

edited 11th May '12 7:26:48 PM by Willbyr

Speaking of which...

Underboobs and Sideboob got flagged, as did Mysterious Skin, Fifty Shades of Grey, and, perplexingly, Giallo.

edited 11th May '12 7:29:28 PM by TwoGunAngel

My guess for Giallo was they took one look at the word "psychosexually" and assumed the worst.

We Are Our Avatars Forever (Now on Discord by invitation, PM)

Yeah. Mysterious Skin is the one that probably legitimately deserves a review, since it is quite the controversial film that includes some scenes of child molestation (though I'm pretty sure said scenes are Played for Drama). Fifty Shades of Grey as well considering it is an erotic novel that the crew are going to want to check out to make sure it doesn't fall under the banner of "porn."

edited 11th May '12 7:38:18 PM by TwoGunAngel

I brought up Fifty Shades of Grey before the flagging system was in place and before it was even a page.

It's a good thing I'm not the type to say "I told you so"

edited 11th May '12 7:50:19 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

I think I'd have liked to be on the panel but then I might have been too biased. Still, so long as have our five members all working properly again it's not needed.

@Marq - Perhaps I should have said "vitriolic hardcase?" Anyway, Friday, so drinkin and debauchery time. I'll leave you all to it.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

This may not be place I should say this but... I am no more or less interested in pornography then anyone else but I do love tropes, while The Other Wiki is about things, Facts, and discoveries, what makes TV Tropes special is it that it's about invention, it's about ideas that we've created that live in our hearts and souls and for better or for worse pornography is a part of that, and to deny there are porn tropes is just sad, I know Tv Tropes inc is Only In It For The Google Money but this can not stand. Even to the more depraved problems of pedophilia, I hate to pull the Serious Business card but this is site of fiction and stories not reality so let's just say the MST3K Mantra together before the team of "Stop Having Fun" Guys starts ctrl+a+delete-ing whole pages and forums of Tv Tropes. I have a possible solution to the problem, while I recognize your need to be Family Friendly I suggest you separate your "adult content" from the rest of Tv Tropes in the same vain as the Darth Wiki and Sugar Wiki, a kind of "Squiky Wiki" and maybe even make it stand alone like the fetish fuel wiki, I just can't believe that broad censorship is the answer. I did not think that porn would be my call and that Tv Tropes Inc would be my Big Bad with its own Five Bad Band, but I will do my best to wield my Infinity+1 Keyboard to rescue the princess of free speech... Okay I may have gotten a little over dramatic and carried away, sorry.

edited 16th May '12 2:38:19 PM by GraySloth

It's already been decided we're not going to do that.

Yeah, it was suggested many times and shot down every one of them. 18+ makes us look like an actual porn site and will scare off contributors and attract actual porn - especially porn-y ads.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

A few things:

(1) I'm having a problem with Rance—from what I've gathered this thing is an example of a work with pornographic elements (not sex, pornographic), but in a diluted sense, as they are drowned by heavy gameplay, strategies, conquering JAPAN, and whatnot. This is difficult, because it's in a way both a porno and a legitimate game. It's porno, but it has other things.

In cases like this, we can try to apply the same principle we apply in determining whether a work is NSFW: the fact that it's porno takes precedence. If a picture book has 200 pages of safe materials and 2 pages of NSFW images, it's NSFW. The alternative, more merciful approach is giving precedence to those "other things". For the former, you can argue that just because we don't allow it, it doesn't mean we're discouraging people from consuming it—it's just not the kind of thing we're hosting. For the latter, you can argue that we're missing an opportunity to catalogue the tropes its kosher elements demonstrate. There are counterarguments to each; you no doubt have some of them leaping to mind right now.

In general, *

my approach as a panel member is to differentiate between the two focuses of our content policy: pure pornography and paedhophilia. That is, for paedophilia, I give it the Devil of Porno regardless of the other aspects it has; for pornography like Rance, I give it the Angel of Not Porno—but the page is only allowed to discuss the "good" elements. This means tropers are free to discuss the Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors in the game's battle system, but not the techniques the hero uses in the raunchier scenes.

Would be interested to hear whether other panel members adopt the same position.

(2) There was a mention of a slippery slope when handling contents. "First they went for the creepy, then for the pornographic, and then..." when the subject of rape was discussed. Whether or not this is true, I want to remind you that the subject of rape (at least the glorification of it) here is already covered by "creepy", and the project to eliminate creepiness predates the new content policy. Viewed that way, I don't think we are escalating our level of censorship.

For myself, I take it in a case-by-case basis.

(3) I am not allowed to respond to direct mails about my verdicts, and you are not allowed to send me those. However, I suppose it's reasonable if you mail me and request that I post my reasoning in this thread... Then again, it could be about a closed case everyone keeps asking about, it could derail the thread, and much more. I don't know how good an idea this is.

(4) As for the anime-rep-talk, I watched some anime, and although I don't do that anymore and I haven't posted in the Anime forum even once, I remain a manga reader. If your worries are about unfairness that can result from unfamiliarity, I like to think that I'm quite familiar with the subject, enough to avoid false judgements. To illustrate, I knew what zettai ryouiki is before going to TV Tropes. But anyway, it's not relevant. Appeal if you think there's a cross-cultural/cross-fandom misunderstanding.

(Wow the numbering is tricky.)

edited 12th May '12 3:25:47 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.

Fifty Shades Of Grey... hm. Isn't it that Twilight fanfic with the Serial Numbers Filed Off?

edited 12th May '12 3:58:18 AM by Komodin

Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.

From what I've heard, yes.

^^^ Is that an indication you favor keeping the page but having it cleaned of any pornographic elements? I can do that and then put it on my watchlist if that's the final P5 decision.

Also, the slippery slope thing was in an 'If you add rape to the guidelines, it makes room for adding even more things later' not an indication that the panel was actually already slipping.

edited 12th May '12 6:58:02 AM by Arha

@Martello: You know, this statement and this one before it can be easily interpreted as indicative that you had accepted your position of authority in "bad faith" — that you're intending to pursue a personal anti-anime agenda all along — even when we have this other statement to contrast against. I'd really like to think otherwise.

Or, to put it in other words: Please choose your words carefully. There's no need to antagonize some/many people by being bluntly frank/honest, even if you don't like them.

edited 12th May '12 7:01:40 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Marq: I hope your trying to be funny and not stir something up.

edited 12th May '12 7:09:15 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

Marq, just let it drop.