Needs a wick cleanup following name change: Help Face Turn

This trope is supposed to be about a minion making a Heel–Face Turn because the boss treated them like crap, correct? How does this trope name even make sense? Trope titles do not have to be Exactly What It Says on the Tin, but they should at least accurately represent the trope.

Yeah, this has always bothered me. The name sounds to me like it's about a Heel–Face Turn triggered by the good guy helping the villain in question - not said villain turning because the Big Bad mistreated them. I really don't follow the logic of this name.

Heel Face Helper would work.

That still sounds like it could be mistaken for the trope nrjxll described.

Betraying The Bad Boss?

Yeah, it's not a very good Snow Clone.

Minion Face Turn might work?

Do we already have Mook–Face Turn? ... Okay, yes, and it's something else.

edited 28th Aug '11 11:32:42 AM by Stratadrake

I'm not convinced that there's a substantial difference, really.

Later examples probably drifted away from the trope's initial intent, which was less "the mook gets fed up with the villain and changes sides" and more "what kind of idiotic villain thinks that this is any kind of way to make them stay?"

The original title on YKTTW before someone named it: "Making The Turn Easy".

Mook–Face Turn already existed when this was launched. Things like It's All About Me and Villainous Demotivator did not.

edited 28th Aug '11 11:54:55 AM by FalconPain

Mook–Face Turn is about the heroes befriending and/or actively convincing the Mooks to change sides.

edited 28th Aug '11 12:03:42 PM by Stratadrake

bump.

edited 2nd Sep '11 7:23:24 PM by Insignificant

Might I suggest "Karmic Betrayal?" Sure, we have about 5 or so tropes with "karmic" in the title, but it gets the point across and makes a thousand times more sense than the current title.

bumping this again. Can this topic not die?

Looks to me like Mook–Face Turn is when a hero convinces a mook to change sides, and Help Face Turn is when a villain convinces any character (not necessarily a mook) to change sides. They're different tropes, definitely. I agree that Help Face Turn isn't a great name, but we should probably do a wick check for misuse before we change it.

I'll start up a wick check tonight.

First 20 wicks:

• Additional Evil Overlord List Cellblock A - Correct
• A Different Lesson - Unclear
• Adventures of the Galaxy Rangers - Correct
• A Father to His Men - Correct
• An American Tail - Apparently Incorrect
• And Now You Must Marry Me - Unclear, most likely incorrect
• And the Winner Is... - Correct
• An Entry with a Bang! - Correct
• Armored Trooper VOTOMS - Correct
• Arsenic And Old Lace - X Just X
• Bad Boss - Three uses: one Correct, one lacking context, and a "see also" (probably correct) in the description
• Batman Beyond - Correct
• Battle Cry - Correct
• Battlefield Earth - Correct
• Beast Wars - Correct
• Because You Were Nice to Me - Probably Incorrect (looks like the I Thought It Meant definition)
• Benevolent Boss - Pothole
• Betrayal Tropes - Index
• Billy Vs SNAKEMAN - Incorrect ("talk an enemy guard into defecting")
• Bond Villain Stupidity - Correct

So that's only two unambigiously wrong examples, with two more that are probably incorrect.

You checked an index, though, which probably should not count. Discounting the unclear example and the X Just X you are left with 17 wicks with between 2/17 incorrect to 4/17. That is between 11.76% and 23.52% misuse. The amount is not statistically valid, however.

Okay, then - the next three wicks that weren't X Just X:

• Bring Them Around - Correct
• Chronic Backstabbing Disorder - Correct
• Dark Action Girl - Incorrect

Three to five misuses out of 20. 15-25% misuse. That's not very good.

Here's some more:

• The Hollows: Correct
• The Hounds Of The Morrigan: Misuse
• The Incredibles: Correct
• The Man From UNCLE: Correct Misuse
• The Mole: Not sure
• The Muppet Movie: X Just X
• The Power of Love: Not sure
• The Quisling: Not sure
• The Smurfette Principle: Correct
• The Starscream: Correct
• The Storm Dragons: Correct
• The Thrawn Trilogy: Misuse
• Through a Looking Glass, Darkly: Not sure
• Thrown Down a Well: Misuse
• The Zeta Project: Misuse
• Thor: Not sure
• Torchwood: Miracle Day: Misuse
• Toy Story: Not sure
• Twice Upon A Time: X Just X
• Unintentionally Sympathetic: Correct Misuse
• Up: Correct
• Varjak Paw: X Just X
• Villain Ball: Indexed
• Villainous Demotivator: Correct
• Wall Street: Not sure
• Watership Down: X Just X
• We Have Reserves: Not sure
• Welcome Back, Traitor: Misuse
• What Would X Do?: Misuse
• Willow: X Just X
• Worthy Opponent: Misuse
• Wolves Of Mercy Falls Series: Not sure
• X Wing Series: Not sure
• Yes Pretty Cure 5: X Just X
• You Are Too Late: Not sure
• Zettai Karen Children: Not sure

This is starting from the bottom going up. So excluding not sure and X Just X examples, that adds 9 correct uses, and 8 incorrect uses, which makes it 11/37 to 13/37 wicks that are misuse. That means 29.73-35.14% misuse.

CORRECTION: The Unintentionally Sympathetic and The Man From UNCLE examples are actually misuse.

edited 28th Sep '11 11:33:52 AM by Insignificant

bump

Crowner time.

edited 17th Sep '11 2:47:33 PM by Insignificant

bump.

We need more votes. I would like for the crowner to accumulate 20 at least.

edited 24th Sep '11 10:30:45 PM by Insignificant

Why? If people don't care, they don't care. Crowners are called when they stabilize, not when they reach some magic number of votes. You can't force people to vote.

FWIW, current standings: +12 (yeas:15 nays:3) 5.00 : 1 in favor of a rename.