- Yes, biologically this doesn't make sense, but think about it:
- Compare Jack to the skeletons on the Hanging Tree or the skeletal reindeer. Hell, compare him to the skeletons from Corpse Bride if you want. They look at least semi-realistic to real skeletons. Jack? A stick figure with a vaguely shaped ping pong ball with eyes, nostrils, and mouth for a head. A skull that can move like flesh. (Partly made out of cartilage, perhaps? Or maybe he's the son of Death and a Toon? Seriously, it just might work out!)
- Jack has a need to eat, which, according to Tim Burton, it's a cause for concern. Doesn't sound like a self-denial thing.
- In the game sequel (may or may not count, since it isn't Word of God), when you approach the guillotine, Jack says, "Exquisite! Just like the one I had when I was a boy!" WHAT HUMAN PARENTS LET THEIR KIDS PLAY WITH FUCKING GUILLOTINES?! (Barring the awesome Gomez and Morticia, of course.)
- Kids during the French Revolution would have toy guillotines that could be used to behead live mice. Perhaps Jack was somewhat careless and accidentally beheaded himself...
- Well, in "Jack's Lament", Jack states that he is dead (and so, can recite Shakespeare).
- Explanation for all this? Jack was born a grinning, scary skeleton baby! It would be an explanation on how Jack and Sally had their skeleton children .
- When he talks and sings, there are times where you see he has teeth under the ones on the outside. Which is either really strange biology, or what we think are his real teeth are just white lips with black stripes on them.
- This is very clever, but sadly pretty much Jossed by the fact that during Jack's Lament, Jack can "take off [his] head to recite Shakespearian quotations".note Also, the (clearly organs-less) skeletons in Oogie Boogie's lair can still sing, too.
- Yes, same troper, but this kinda makes sense if you think about it: Jack, despite being a skeleton, can stretch his skull into a scary roar◊. It looks like the scary version of what Toons usually do. Also, when Jack is fighting Oogie, if you watch the part when Jack is avoiding the knives, you notice that he gets rather flexible for a skeleton. The story could go like this:
- Jack Skellington was born in Toon Town, scaring the crap out of the doctors. His mother raised him in Toon Town, while his dad visited him often. When Jack was older, he tried to get a job in acting, but humans expected Toons to be funny, which when Jack tried to be funny, he always ends up scaring the shit out of everyone. His dad thought Jack's talents would be useful in scaring, so Jack moved to Halloween Town, where he became the Pumpkin King. He still visits his mother often, and his dad comes to Halloween Town to watch Jack's performances.
- That has just fulfilled the "Aww" quota of my day. Thank you.
- Another point: In addition to the flexibility of his mouth, you can also see teeth under there during many closeups. It seems Jack does, in fact, have lips, but they have teeth-like markings on them.
- Yes, but cartoons didn't exist before 1910, so Toontown didn't exist either (oh, that's different if you go by the original Who censored Roger Rabbit book, but all the rest of the toon mythology as developed more recently shows that Toons are created by animators using magic paint — see the opening of Animaniacs). Now, where am I going with this date problem? Jack O'Lantern is a far more ancient figure than 1910, so except if you argue that there have been many Jack O'Lanterns that replace each other regularly, which I don't (for me, Jack is THE Jack O'Lantern, the one that existed as long as Halloween ever existed), it's not possible. It's a nice theory, though.
- It seems that nowadays no character can be in love in silence that everyone assumes they're stalking...
- A Toon was killed somehow, and its spirit possessed a real skeleton, turning it into Jack's toony-look in the movie. After all, when he fell from the sleigh, his jaw fell off and it certainly didn't look like the rest of him till he pushed it in...on...his face.
- The citizens of Halloween Town love to scare, right? So something as creepy as a Stalker with a Crush would literally be endearing, which is probably why Jack fell in love with Sally despite the fact she stalked him.
- Jack doesn't actually realize she's stalking him though, so should this really count? He fell in love with her when he realized just how much she was willing to sacrifice to help him.
- Actually, some of the dialogue (such as when he asks her to sew him the Santa suit) imply that they know each other pretty well and are close friends, and the end is a Relationship Upgrade.
- You forget the line from "This Is Halloween":
''That's our job! But we're not mean! In this town of Halloween!"- I highly doubt that slaughtering someone is "not mean".
- It's Halloween Town. Maybe being slaughtered is like being tickled? Annoying if you just get tickled/stabbed for an instant, then becomes fun as the endorphins start rushing, and after crossing another line gets irritating again.
- So, Finkelstein would represent the dark side of science, Lock, Shock and Barrel signify young cruelty, and the Mayor represents the dark things that lurk in a face. Not a bad concept.
- Or the Mayor represents two-faced politicians.
- Oogie's the former leader of an old holiday called Bug Day. Even if the theory's true, he's not part of it.
- Except that since none of the original creators of Nightmare was involved in the prequel, it's debatable if it's considered Canon or not.
- Just because he was the leader of a different town does not mean that he is not an anthropomorphic personification of a concept.
- Except that since none of the original creators of Nightmare was involved in the prequel, it's debatable if it's considered Canon or not.
- Victor would have died around the same time Halloween started to get popular, so he was turned into Jack Skellington for being great.
- Christmas was a holiday during the Victorian era. Victor (Jack Skellington) would know of several holidays, in fact.
- This troper doubts that Victor is Jack Skellington. First off, their personalities are way different, and second, Victor seems to have a tear-shaped skull, while Jack has a round skull. Not to mention that Victor has five fingers while Jack has four (and it's obvious that Jack was born, dead or alive, with four fingers).
- Also, to quote the first lines of TNBC: "Twas a long time ago, longer now than it seems." If Victor died just when Halloween was started (which was around 2000 BC) then the whole thing falls apart.
- Unless he wanted to forget his cruel, cruel life as Victor and the holidays associated with being Victor.
- Maybe Victor died horribly. Or perhaps over the years his flesh and brains rotted out but his soul stayed with the body and thus THE PUMPKIN KING was born.
- Reincarnation?
Dr. Facilier has his friends from the other side take the form of shadows. Oogie seems to be able to control his shadow to sing in the beginning song in Nighmare, so this troper's idea is that Dr. Facilier's "friends" decided to give him A Fate Worse Than Death - being trapped in a gigiantic burlap sack with living bugs as guts. This drives Facilier mad, making him less Genre Savvy, more sadistic, and lowered the quality of his grammar. So now Dr. Facilier is double dead, first killed when the tailsman was broken, then when he was torn apart.
Fairly obvious when you note how the citizens of Halloween Town are totally incapable of understanding a foreign culture unless they reinvent it in their own style. Because they cannot regard the people of Christmas Land on an equal level, they see no harm in appropriating their culture or even kidnapping them for their own purposes. They do not wish to exploit the other town, so much as shape it to their own image. In otherwords, they are trying to "civilise" Christmas town, albeit in their own perverse sense of what is civil.
- Though the Halloween Town citizens misunderstanding the foreign culture is due to not getting proper information rather then thinking their culture is "better" then the Christmas culture (note the ending — how many ethnocentrics suddenly "get it" at a drop of a pin?). Also, your "they-shape-the-other-town-in-their-own-image" doesn't quite make sense, as never do they make the Christmas Town citizens act like Halloween Town citizens, like white colonialists did with the Native Americans. Since Jack didn't know what the hell he was talking about when he was explaining Christmas to the Halloween town citizens — which is all the information they got — the film seems to be more a satire of cultural ignorance rather then straight out ethnocentrism and colonialism.
- Funnily enough, this troper's sister gave a pretty good argument that Jack is an undead Adolf Hitler. Seriously.
- There's actually a fairly good argument to be made for TNBC as a brilliant satire, intentional or accidental, of well-meant cultural appropriation. It's pretty common for open-minded people encountering a fascinating new culture for the first time to want to "honor" it by playing with the superficial trappings of that culture, without bothering to really learn and understand the meaning behind them. This can have negative results ranging from embarrassment (the college student proudly showing her obscene/gibberish tattoo to a Chinese exchange student) to hurtfulness (the hideous caricature of a costume that ruins the Halloween party for a First Nations friend) to serious harm (the present fad for quinoa in high-end restaurants that has driven the price too high for those who ate it as a staple to afford it anymore). Jack and the Halloween Town folk cause problems all up and down that spectrum for themselves and the Christmas Town folk with their cheerfully ignorant imitating, despite the good intentions of the originators and the innocent wish for fun of their imitators.
- Alternatively, Nightmare could be a fantasy-counterpart Deconstruction of the Mighty Whitey trope, since Jack tries to do Christmas and even thinks he could do it better ("I bet I could improve it too!"), but ends up screwing it up royally.
- *cough*
Not one reference to Christianity is made, despite featuring two Christian (post-pagan) festivals. The saints and Christ would be the natural "leaders" of these two towns, however the authorities are represented by non-religious characters like Santa-Claus. Conclusion? The writer's idealised versions of these holidays are purposely lacking in Christian iconography, suggesting they would prefer these festivals without religious elements.
- Except Jack refers to God twice in "Poor Jack", so maybe the idea here is, since the king of the "pagan" holiday seems to be a bit more spiritual then the leaders of the "Christian" holidays, the film is a subtle Take That! to Christians who think themselves more "moral" and "spiritual" then anyone else of any other religion or of non-religion.
- Popping in to point out that both Easter and Christmas are of pagan roots as well, being absorbed by Christianity due to their popularity. Easter comes from Eostre, a fertility goddess.
- Easter derives more from the Jewish Passover than any pagan celebration. Eostre's only real connection to Easter is that her name was used for the name of the holiday in the German and English languages. Most other European languages used some form of "Passover."
- What parts of Passover involve rabbits and eggs? These are two very prominent (possibly the most prominent, at least in the US) Easter symbols that have nothing to do with either Judaism or Christianity (though some Christians do try to make the egg into some kind of "rebirth" metaphor, I think). This is because they are pagan fertility symbols.
- Paschal Eggs were dyed red by early Mesopotamian Christians as a representation of the empty tomb, and the custom quickly spread from there into Eastern Europe. The first "Easter Bunny" was developed by German Lutherans as a judge of children's behavior (similar to Santa Claus - the German equivalent being Kristkind instead) and took its inspiration from medieval European associations between hares and the Virgin Mary. The association in Christianity between eggs and rebirth, however, predates contact with Pagan Europe.
- Also gonna add this, related to secular holiday stuff.
- Easter derives more from the Jewish Passover than any pagan celebration. Eostre's only real connection to Easter is that her name was used for the name of the holiday in the German and English languages. Most other European languages used some form of "Passover."
- We have a trope for this.
Taking into account Tim Burton's "No Magic" rule, Jack is able to bend the Spiral Hill, rise from water without getting wet, and breathe fire without the pre-drinking of flammable liquids, all under his own power! Not to mention Jack is one of the few characters in Kingdom Hearts who has dark versions of the normal spells available to Sora and Donald, as opposed to following an elemental theme such as Ariel or Mulan. The PlayStation 2 video game gave him direct control of fire and ice depending on the suit worn. As this troper sees it, Jack was born a Waterbender, learned Earth- and Fire-bending, and has only Air left to master! (Unless this troper has forgotten an example...)
- Air is there too. He can cast Aero in Kingdom Hearts.
- That would be fucking awesome.
- Though the Avatar State would be freaking terrifying. It's scary enough with Aang, a twelve-year-old kid. Can you image that with a six foot tall skeleton?
- This theory brings up a lot of questions, however. If Jack was alive once, then died, why didn't the Avatar reincarnate into the next person instead of sticking around with Jack? If Jack was born a skeleton, as with the first theory, why was the Avatar reincarnated into Halloween Town?
- He was killed while in the avatar state!
- Because something happened to the last one, I guess. The Avatar cycle would probably run its circuit through the holiday denizens just like it does on the show, and it's Halloween Town's turn. ... Following that logic, if Jack had to learn bending from bending masters, wouldn't it be AWESOME if Jack got to learn how to bend something from Sandy Claws?
- Jack would probably learn Waterbending from Sandy (ya know, all the snow and ice). Continuing this idea, Jack would learn Airbending from someone in either Valentine's Day Town or St. Patrick's Day Town, learn Earthbending in Easter Town, Earthbending or Airbending in Thanksgiving Town, and Firebending in Fourth of July Town.
- Wait, would this make Oogie Boogie an AIRBENDER?! Yikes . . .
- Would that mean that Oogie as a whole was an Airbender, or that his main bug was the Airbender and the rest oh no I've gone cross-eyed...
- Okay, I now have this mental picture of Toph using Spiral Hill as a giant whip, and it refuses to leave my mind because it's too awesome.
- Not sure I'm buying this theory outright, but it's got serious cool points going for it! I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
- Jack is Jack Harkness, Tardis Hitchhiker. Proven wrong.
- That's just fucked up.
- And that's my Ruined Childhood quota for this month.
- Alternatively, she gave him a roundhouse kick in her first escape attempt? One powerful enough to make Chuck Norris feel frightfully inadequate, no doubt.
- And that's my Ruined Childhood quota for this month.
- He didn't so much convince them to "convert" as persuade them to change up the usual Christmas for something new. They only really got into it when he told them about how terrifying Santa was. Also, it might be that the elves and Mrs. Claus were looking for Santa, but they just thought he was lost in Christmas Town. Neither Jack nor anyone else seemed to know about the other holiday worlds, after all. They might not have known Halloween Town was there to look in.
- Yeah, this theory was basically a crack theory made by my sister, and she asked that I post it.
- This theory is well supported by a single, often-missed moment in the film: Remember near the end when the Dr. appears in the square, accompanied for the first time by his new creation? Watch Jack's face. He sees the doctor with his new "wife", his jaw drops, then he suddenly looks toward Sally with one brow raised. It is after this that he slips out of the square himself, to join Sally in the cemetery. Based on this quick scene, it appears that Jack may indeed have been interested in Sally, but thought she was spoken for. Jack seeks her out only after realizing that she is no longer with the Doctor. Yes, it's a split second of footage; however, seeing as how nothing in animation (especially stop-mo) is an accident, it carries some weight.
- . . . Holy shit. I never realized that.
- THANK YOU. This troper thought she was the only one who figured that out!
- So does this make Jack a Dogged Nice Guy?
- I just assumed that was his quite rightful shock at Dr. Fink getting hitched. To a woman who looks exactly like him.
- Also, when Jack arrives at Oogie Boogie's place, he's pretty pissed already, but when Jack hears Sally scream (therefore finding out that she was down there), he gives a Death Glare that pretty much signed Oogie's death warrant. (Though he would probably still be angry if they were Just Friends.)
- Note how Jack reacts when Sally tells him that she was trying to help him. After a whole movie of Oblivious to Love, Jack suddenly realizes that Sally, indeed, loves him. How would that happen? If Jack had feelings of his own, he would recognize the hidden crush behind Sally's motivation. "I never realized that you . . ." In that quote, there was no question of Jack loving Sally. None at all.
- Except that's not always the case. People who have feelings for someone can be especially distrustful of any reciprocation hints. They might be read as wishful thinking or self-indulgent pattern recognition. In Jack's specific case, he a) is shown not to have such a high degree of emotional maturity, so I wouldn't count on him readily recognising his own feelings, let alone Sally's, and b) may or may not be going through depression, but sure as hell he's going through a period of crisis, self-doubt and confusion. That alone chunks anyone's inability to recognise other people's feelings for them up to eleven: Jack clearly has the love and respect of all the people in Halloween Town, but that doesn't reach him. He has zero self-worth, so is unreceptive to what positive feelings other people have for him. That would include Sally, until after he finds himself again and re-establishes his sense of self-worth.
- And since Jack doesn't have a family at the start of the film, and feels completely alone, perhaps that adds to his personal exhaustion with the holiday. He has no children to whom he can bequeath the crown, doesn't think he's likely to have any in the near future, and doesn't know of any children he would be comfortable training as his apprentice. Yes, I can see this as being plausible.
- Original troper here, to bring in another point. If the Real World knows about Santa, why didn't they know about Jack? Thinking about that, this troper had a Fridge Brilliance — Jack is only refered as the Pumpkin King in Halloween Town. Nowhere is it indicated that the Real World knows about the Pumpkin King. Also, unlike the other holidays, Halloween has no "offical" mascot. This could be explained by the "Pumpkin King" title being held by different people throughout the years.
- Who's to say that the real world doesn't know about Jack? In "Jack's Lament", Skellington sings, "To a guy in Kentucky I'm Mr. Unlucky, and I'm known throughout England and France." This line probably raises a few more questions than it answers, however.
- Yes, but just because he's well known doesn't mean they know all about him; as with monsters who would be depicted as scary actually being nice; besides, they probably made up their own mythology for him from the sightings and gave him a different name; so he would be well known, as they would have seen his face, but not have actually known about what he does and who he is; although its anyone's guess how he got out of halloweentown, went to those countries and was not infatauated with them as with Christmas, although perhaps he just is a well known boogeyman of dreams?
- Who's to say that the real world doesn't know about Jack? In "Jack's Lament", Skellington sings, "To a guy in Kentucky I'm Mr. Unlucky, and I'm known throughout England and France." This line probably raises a few more questions than it answers, however.
- "Formerly" alive? Why do you think they're undead? Unlike the Corpse Boy, who is, on the contrary, supposed to be an undead human being, Lock, Shock and Barrel are the local trick-or-treaters, who have no reason to be dead. They're just ugly because, you know, town of monsters.
- That would make sense, and the only reason "ragdoll" wasn't added is presumably because it would throw off the meter of the poem.
- The song "What's This?" kind of proves that Jack has ADD.
- No it doesn't. He's just amazed and wants to see everything Christmas Town has to offer all at once. I get like that in, say, zoos or aquariums, but I don't have ADD.
- Indeed, a point the original theory overlooks is that the movie implies it took years for Jack to become disenchanted with Halloween.James, the Saxophone player: Good Job, Bone Daddy.Jack: Yeah, I guess so. Just like Last Year. And the year before that, and the year before that.
- Also remember, Jack SAW Christmastown. He may somehow know that his Christmas is WRONG, he just can't tell that to himself.
- "And for the first time since I don't remember when/I felt just like my old bony self again." This line in "Poor Jack" gives support to this idea. It sounds like Jack didn't feel like Christmas was actually helping all that much with his depression.
- Also, when Sally was telling Jack about her vision, Jack spends barely anytime thinking about it, not even to convince Sally that the vision was wrong and/or won't come to pass. Jack could be delibrately changing the subject because deep down, he knows Sally is right but doesn't want to give up on Christmas.
- Completely agree. Also, Jack is having some sort of Mid-death Crisis, so his trying to take over Christmas could be equivalent to, you know, buying a convertible and dating younger girls you have nothing in common with. It's exhilarating, new and exciting, but it's not really compatible with whom you are. A much more healthy way is reviewing your goals in life and realizing what you really cherish: Sally.
- This also works with Jack's worry that "something is missing" when Sally confronts him; Christmas does not have the right feel for him as he thought it would, it's not relieving his depression.
- That's just adorable.
- I call canon.
- Three words: HAUNTED. MANSION. HOLIDAY.
- Jossed in the PS2 sequel. He's the former ruler of forgotten holiday Bug Day.
- Like someone said above, none of the original creators were a part of the PS2 sequel, so it's technically not Jossed.
- Furthermore, it's not Oogie's Revenge that mentions Bug Day, it's the GBA prequel game, Pumpkin King.
- A skeleton alien, huh? A combination of monsters like that would be a great choice for the king of Halloween.
- But where did Dr. Finklestein and Santa come from? Santa can possibly be from the real world, but there is no way Dr. Finklestein came from the real world. And which came first, the egg or the bunny?
- Why couldn't Dr. Finklestein exist in a "real" world that Santa could? And the bunny came first. Pink bunnies lay giant eggs that hatch into treats.
- Oh good lord. That means that Spiral Hill is necrophiliac for Jack Skellington?
- Not necessarily, unless you think the touch-sensitive plants that exist in Real Life are sexually attracted to any human that touches them.
- That certainly makes more sense than Selick's idea that the hill is mechanical (See What Could Have Been on the Trivia page).
- Could you elaborate what Spiral Power is for those who have never watched TTGL and why it would explain everything? This troper looked on the page and couldn't find any explanation of Spiral Power (unless it's in the spoilers, which this troper doesn't want to uncover, as the show looks very interesting and she wants to watch it).
- Being a fan of Gurren Lagann, I'd say it explains it only as Spiral Power is a bit of a New Powers as the Plot Demands power.
- Seems plausible, considering Jack has a sort of Anti-Hero thing going on. Hell, Rocky certainly approves of pinstripes. "Pinstripes! There's hope yet!"
- He wears it under the Santa outfit, under the scarecrow outfit, and there's nothing to indicate he's changed out of it when he's wearing his pajamas.
- It's pretty obvious that he's not an actual skeleton, but the idea of a skeleton, so why can't he be the idea a Skeleton-in-a-suit?
- Since he doesn't appear to have any ligaments, this would explain why he doesn't fall apart - the suit acts as a binding agent and epidermis.
- It also explains why the suit isn't reduced to shreds after the missile strike, because Jack has a Toon Physics exemption which would be passed on to the suit.
- The theory is, of course, borne out by the actual models of Jack, which do not have bones underneath a suit because they didn't need to have swishy cloth movement on him.
- The main problem with this theory is that it means Jack is naked for nearly the entire movie.
- This troper assumed (and we are probably meant to assume) that it was a case of rewriting history to make it seem like he disapproved from the beginning. Your idea is exceedingly plausible, though, and could qualify for a bit of Fridge Brilliance.
- True. Also, shortly before they take Santa to Oogie's lair, Santa asks them something along the lines of "Haven't you heard of peace on Earth and goodwill to men?" The response? A sharp "NO!" from all three kids, without skipping a beat.
- Confirmed in the sequel comic.
- It sounded like it could be both, but the DVD subtitles say "friends". And that line isn't in the original draft of the script, so who can say? Besides, Jack is the type who probably considers anyone he meets a friend.
- In fact, maybe it was him who did a lot of these people in, perhaps they worship the man who "lead them" to Halloween Town, perhaps that's his penance that none of them even remember because time's just warped on so long, right? Maybe, but maybe not.
- And what about eating, and "feeling" that needle prick despite the bombs not doing anything? Easy. He never saw the bombs hit, so his brain never "told" him that he was feeling those bombs. Whereas he visibly saw the needle hitting his bone, so he was convinced that he felt the pain, because after all, the mind can only accept so much, right? And so, he eats and "feels" because he needs to, so subconsciously convinces himself that he does. What do you guys think, eh? Ehh?
- First of all, Jack has mood swings, but he isn't as fucking insane as you protray him as! What about when he's with Sally at the end of the film? He looks pretty cool and fit to me. Hell, the entire Reprise/Finale, Jack's the most sane we've seen him. And two, there's Halloween Town citizens that are not The Undead. The Wolf Man and The Undersea Gal comes to mind.
- Yeah, it's a little hazy, but bear with me, man. Ok, some of the denizens, the vampires, the monsters, etc, they're either actual monsters, or created by fear, fear of people in the Real World, or created by the restless spirits and souls who are trapped there by Jack himself. Who knows? That would explain why Satan himself is there, yet Oogie Boogie is the main baddie. And perhaps Jack's with Sally at the end, because, well...he's passed his penance. Or, y'know, discovering Christmas, even if he did fail in truly "getting" it, was enough to give him his reward.
- But who's the one who put the penance on him in the first place? The Big Guy Himself?
- Maybe himself, maybe the souls of Halloween Town who he had wronged, maybe higher powers, if they exist in this universe. Maybe Oogie Boogie did it long ago just to cruelly torture them, and now that he's gone, y'know...they can finally get on with the rest of their unnatural existence. Whatever happened, they are so far gone now, so maybe it doesn't matter anymore. But I hold that Jack is a goddamn lunatic. He's a skeleton. He's a corpse. He is decaying. Whatever unholy force keeps him together, doesn't keep his mind from aging, doesn't keep mental baggage from forming.
- I still think you're flanderizing Jack, but I do agree that Jack probably has some serious mental baggage he needs to deal with. In fact . . . *goes add trope to main page*
- I always thought the citizens of Halloween Town were people that had died in their Halloween costumes and whose spirits ended up in never-ending Halloween in a form similar to what they were dressed as (eg. Jack was dressed as a skeleton, so when he died he became a living skeleton) or, in the case of LS&B, they were lost Trick or Treaters that found their way to Halloween Town and are very slowly turned into what their costume represent (which is why Lock's tail moves and the three don't quite look like normal children)
- All that is interesting, but not everyone in Halloweentown is dead, fercrissake! Dr. Finkelstein, the werewolf, lake creature, witches, etc. have no reason to be dead. There are lots of dead people in Halloweentown because a lot of monsters are ghosts and other types of undeads, but it doesn't mean Halloweentown is the afterlife or something.
- In the alternate ending where Dr. Finklestein was Oogie Boogie, the Doc did say Sally was made of "bits of flesh and scraps of cloth", so this is very plausible (though I'm skeptical of her dress being made of scraps of skin theory).
- And since she needs to eat, she must have some sort of digestive tract (if she didn't need to eat, the soup trick wouldn't have worked). And since it's implied in the eplilogue poem that Jack has kids, since we can safely assume that Sally is Jack's wife at this time, it's possible that Sally has genitalia. So yeah, I can see this working.
- Damn it, not everything is related to whether or not Sally has a vagina! GOSH!
- I always figured it was more a case of children exaggerating. Like when kid's do something wrong and say "Mom/dad is gonna kill me!" Also, Jack could be the type to make empty threats, like many authority figures do.
- I thought it was a sign that they don't know Jack well enough to know he wouldn't hit them and they have experienced beatings before, either at Oogie's appendages or at the hands of their parents if, as suggested above, they used to be normal humans.
- Actually, LSB's fears may have held more merit than we thought. In the game, Jack really did get physically violent with them. Granted, they deserved it.
- While neither games are official canon the prequel also has LSB mention to Jack that Oogie will "whomp" them if they tell him where Sally is, so this theory holds some weight if you want to factor the games in.
- I thought it was a sign that they don't know Jack well enough to know he wouldn't hit them and they have experienced beatings before, either at Oogie's appendages or at the hands of their parents if, as suggested above, they used to be normal humans.
- Just found this. Told you they were related!
- As for his faceless appearance, maybe somebody saw Jack once when his head accidentally got knocked backwards, and thanks to the nature of urban legend, he now has a constant reminder of that embarrassing incident, much to his annoyance.
- I like this. That leads to the suggestion that Finklestein likes to literally put himself in his work, what with Jewel being made using half his brain.
- Not exactly canon to the film, but in Kingdom Hearts II, Santa does imply that he has grown tired of Christmas, but the smiles of the kids makes it all worthwhile. Of course, it's easy enough when you get smiles in return for your work. Not so much when your reward is screams.note
- Fisher Kingdom is the trope.
This'll be fun, deciding who represents which.
- Jack: Necrophobia (fear of death), because it seems appropriate that the King of Halloween would represent probably the most common, all-encompassing fear, and he's represented by a corpse.
- Sally: Pediophobia (fear of dolls), or basically the Unintentional Uncanny Valley, due to her being an Artificial Human.
- Alternately, she could be a fear of dismemberment, since she's always falling apart.
- Oogie Boogie: Entomophobia (fear of bugs), since he's made out of bugs.
- Or algophobia (fear of pain), because he's a Torture Technician.
- Alternatively, he represents natural fears, since he gambles, kidnaps, and tortures, compared to the lighthearted other residents of the town.
- Finklestein: Fear of science, or progression, or technology.
- Or cripples.
- The Mayor: Fear of authority, or possibly fear of deception (since he's literally "two-faced")
- Or perhaps he's the fear of public speaking. It would fit with his Nervous Wreck status and since it's the other most common fear, it makes sense that he would be co-leader with Jack.
- Lock, Shock, and Barrel: Pedophobia (fear of children). Yes, it exists. Either that or fear of neighborhood hooligans or the Enfant Terrible.
- Zero: Cynophobia (fear of dogs).
- The Band: ???
- Jimmy, the accordion player: Fear of accordions, making him possibly the most evil one of all.
- Jim, the bass player: ???
- James, the saxophone player: ???
- Behemoth: ???
- Clown-With-The-Tear-Away-Face: Coulrophobia (fear of clowns). Self-explanatory.
- Corpse Family: Fear of ugliness/deformity. The three are pretty standard representations of traditional circus freaks (the "living skeleton", the fat lady, the dwarf).
- Ned (the dad): ???
- Bertha (the mom): ???
- Ethan (the kid): Fear of the loss of senses (his eyes are stitched shut).
- Creature Under the Bed: Fear of things under the bed.
- Creature Under the Stairs: Fear of things under the stairs.
- Alternatively for both: Fear of the dark or fear of the unknown. Or Things That Go "Bump" in the Night.
- Cyclops: Fear of Eye Scream
- Devil: Fear of the devil.
- Gate Keeper: Ornithophobia (fear of birds).
- Ghostsnote : Fear of ghosts.
- Grim Reaper: Necrophobia (fear of death), because he's the Grim Reaper.
- Grim Reaper's Companion: ???
- Hanging Tree And Hangmen: Hylophobia (fear of trees).
- Harlequin Demon: Fear of the abstract or subconscious? His design is especially bizarre.
- Igor: Fear of servitude or mental disability.
- Jack-o'-lantern:
- Jewel: Fear of loss of identity (since she looks identical to Finklestein)
- Melting Man: Fear of melting
- Mr. Hyde: ???
- Mummy Boy: Claustrophobia (fear of tight spaces), because mummies are kept in coffins.
- Rats: Fear of rats.
- Shadows: Fear of the shapes caught out of the corner of your eye (e.g. shadows that seem to change shape)
- Skeletal Reindeer: ???
- Skeletal Rooster: ???
- Undersea Gal: Fear of Drowning.
- Vampire Brothers: Hemophobia (fear of blood), since they drink blood.
- Witches: Fear of magic.
- Apple Crone: Fear of poisoned foods (Halloween treats, especially), or fear of deception in general.
- Withered Winged Demon: Fear of flying?
- Wolfman: Cynophobia (fear of dogs).
- And the first time you see Oogie, all you see is a shadow with eyeholes. Just like Hexxus.
- Thank you for that. That made my day.
- Welcome!
- Close. Lock is six, Shock is seven, and Barrel is five.
- It snows in parts of America on Halloween too. In New Hampshire this year we had so much snow (and power outages due to the snowstorm) this year that Trick'or'Treating was pushed back till November 6th.
- Confirmed in the closing narration on the official soundtrack. ""But after that, nothing was ever the same/ Each holiday now knew the other one's name"
He is Skulduggery after Skulduggery's family was killed, but before he returned and helped to win the war. Eventually Jack will become, once again, disillusioned with Halloween and leave permanently this time. He will come to our world, make friends with Stephanie Edgely, become a private detective, and... well, you know the rest.
- Considering that The Casino is often associated with gangsters, this could be true on Oogie's part.
- Jossed by the lyrics of "This Is Halloween", which refer to him as "skeleton Jack". It's just a costume for his Big Entrance.
- Unless Finklestein was Snape, buying into the Sex Slave theory. He looks nothing like Snape because the fandom hadn't established an appearance for him (look at the Grandpré illustration in Prisoner of Azkaban, he doesn't resemble Alan Rickman at all) Ironically, he looks a lot like how I imagined him before I'd seen the movies.
- Interesting idea. But what would happen to someone who loves two holidays (say, Halloween and Christmas) equally?
- Maybe they just have to pick one holiday town to live in, and their new form takes on qualities of both holidays? For example, someone who loves Halloween and Christmas may go to Christmas Town and become, say, a scary polar bear, or go to Halloween Town and become, say, a Bad Santa-esque monster. Or better yet, they can travel between the two holiday worlds at will.
- This is pretty much a given. It's not unlikely that Oogie would need to replenish his supplies occasionally.
- I wouldn't put it past him from a personality perspective, but the sheer mechanics of it are mind-boggling.
Either way, they were doomed to work for Oogie because of their antics in life, and with him being the way he is (sadistic and creepy and having three henchmen at his beck and call), it would explain why they never really learned their lesson: Oogie doesn't seem to care what they do so long as they bring him things (other than themselves) to eat. It would also explain why they showed no remorse for Oogie's death, and were even HAPPY to bring the Mayor to Jack: Jack essentially freed them from their punishment.
Same troper, editing to add: and why does Oogie never seem to have other children at his beck and call? We've seen the skeletons in his lair. If Lock, Shock, and Barrel ever dared to stop working for him, they could easily be replaced. And it's probably easier to control three kids over, say, a dozen.
- As a sidenote, this Troper's mother is the manager of the store. Come 2014, they were getting Christmas stuff in the middle of August.
- As of her transfer to Ever After High, it's pretty clear that the "bone elemental" idea was purely a hypothesis on Ghoulia's part and that Cupid just changes appearances to match her surroundings. Jack is likely just the abstract idea of a skeleton or a monster rather than reanimated bones, so he doesn't have to obey the rules of biology.
- Additionally for the adoption angle they adopted Hoodude after Frankie Stein abandoned him since he is a living rag doll.
- So far, the MH canon seems to deny the possibility. Hoodude lives with one of the teachers, and Skelita's parents are said to be Hexican, so Jack and Sally might have to be long-ago ancestors.
- Adding to this, the reason she loves Jack is because he was the first person who wasn't put off by the fact that she was different.
The back cover of the original VHS and the special edition DVD also show Jack and Sally dancing, with Lock, Shock and Barrel celebrating around them. It could mean nothing, and the threesome are merely celebrating, but also consider that the only time Jack and Sally are shown romantically is at the end. And all three of them are looking up at Jack and Sally, possibly because they became a family and all are better off now than they were in their old lives.
It does make even more sense when you think about Jack and Sally's personalities. Jack is stern, but fair, and Sally is compassionate and patient. They're exactly the kind of example and guidance the threesome needs to better adjust, even if they never quite unlearn their trouble-making ways.
- How did she know about Halloween Town? Well, considering what it's like, she might actually live there.
- He's the patron of a much older, much dark holiday from a very primitive time. His violence and mild obsession with games of chance are just part of that holiday shining through. As for what he's doing in Halloween, more likely then not elements of this older festival of violence evolved into the modern version of Halloween which he wisely jumped ship to so he could avoid simply disappearing into obscurity. But he finds modern Halloween disgusting and pathetic compared to what he used to be in charge of which is why he has a problem with Jack who is the physical representation of this new holiday he can't stand.
- Definitely true in the non-canon GBA game. He hails from Bug Day.
- Jack represents psychological scares, but never hurts anybody other than Oogie, someone who has it coming — a staple of old school horror where even the antagonist often had sympathetic motives. Jack also has grandiose designs and plans. In contrast, Oogie Boogie is all about death and visceral reactions (he's essentially skinned alive), like modern horror films' reliance on gore and brutality.
- Dr. Finklestein: "I'm the evil genius with the monster wife! / Bringing your worst nightmares to life!"
- Or, before he made his wife (assuming Sally wasn't one), "I'm the evil genius with a brilliant mind / Mad science only, that's my kind!"
- Lock, Shock, and Barrel: "We are the kids, who, though no older than six / don't like treats, cause we'd rather play tricks!"
- Undersea Gal: "I am the lady lurking under the lake / swimming with me is a big mistake!"
- Harlequin Demon: "I am the creature who looks quite unique! / alien features to make you shriek!"
- Mr. Hyde: "I am the man who holds in his hat / tinier men, that's where we are at!"
- "I am Dr. Jekyll's insidious side! / All of London fears the cruel Mr. Hyde!"
- Werewolf: "I am the werewolf, hear me growl! / Nobody's safe when I'm on the prowl!"
- Devil: "I am the devil, making you feel unwell / Evil and frightening like I'm straight from hell!"
- Well damn that's interesting. Also, if the mayor did have one: 'I am the man with the switch-a-witch head/you'll fear me hiding under your bed.'
- Expect either Krampus or the Frau Perchta as one Oogie's allies who want revenge on Santa Claus.
- Jossed. The sequel comic shows Oogie has a tomb in the cemetery, Lock, Shock, and Barrel outright state he's been gone a while, and aside from a quick cameo painted on a wall in Issue 10, hasn't been referenced since.
- The mayor of Christmas Town would probably be the head elf.
- Possibly Jossed since we clearly see T.V.s and phones in the film and Krampus is much older then that.
Jack already made things awkward between himself and Santa the time he tried to hijack Christmas, so he probably didn't want to be involved. And considering that the Easter Bunny himself was kidnapped by Lock, Shock and Barrel during all this, it's likely he didn't want Jack involved either.
But after hundreds of years of scaring people, Jack has forgotten his past life or even the fact that he was once human and has become out of touch with his deeper emotions. That's why he feels a sense of warmth and longing in Christmas Land, he unknowingly longs for the joy and serenity of Heaven, though it is something he can never obtain. Hence, he subconsciously relapses into his old frightening ways in order to cope. That, or Stingy Jack was finally leaning towards goodness, before becoming a morally neutral person once more.
Jack Skellington certainly sounds like he has the potential to charm someone as evil as the Devil—twice!