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Headscratchers: Super Natural
  • We've been told countless times about the importance of family in the show, and of course Bobby's statement "Family don't end with blood". So why have the Winchesters never shown any concern about the fact that their half-brother - also John's son, so truly a "Winchester" - is still in the hell-cage with two archangels trying to rip each other to shreds? Any in-universe explanation for the huge Adam plot hole?
    • Part of it is they really have no way to get him out of there - Death has no incentive to help them, and yanking Adam's body but not his soul out (as happened with Sam) I guess would be regarded as worse than not having him out at all, especially now that it's been years that he's been stuck in there. Sam nearly died as a result of a year without a soul, Adam would be a freaking vegetable after years in there. They haven't specifically addressed it since, but the situation seems to be "no real way to get all of him out, and its not clear we'd want to anyway."
    • It was actually said by Michael, while using Adam's body as a vessel that Adam "isn't home right now." It was also part of his deal with Zachariah that Adam would get to see his dead mother again, implying the deal was Michael gets permission to enter Adam's body, and Adam's soul goes to heaven and was never in the cage to begin with. Death could have mentioned Adam being in the cage simply to mess with Dean's head.

  • How come the Winchesters never show scarring? They get slashed up in basically every episode, but none of their cuts ever appear in later episodes and there's never any evidence that they were cut at all.
    • Because they've got to keep their prettiness. Shirtless Scenes aren't as fun for audiences when the subject is all scarred up.
    • In early episodes, they actually did show some small degree of scarring (nothing near what they should have shown considering how banged up they got and how little medical attention they received) but now that they're constantly being healed by angels, wounds and scars being wiped clean makes a little more sense. As for why they don't bleed out when they're constantly slicing themselves with silver blades? The flannel shirts have magical powers.

  • In the very first episode: Why does Dean return for Sam in the first place? The timing is off for him to have heard Sam yell, unless he was lurking around outside waiting for Sam to need him(which is not outside the realm of possibility for Dean).
    • There's a deleted scene on the Season 1 DVD set that shows Dean driving away in the Impala before noticing his radio going hay-wire, lights flickering, etc., which tipped him off to supernatural activity in the area and caused him to go back for Sam.

  • Okay, so Chuck writes the supernatural books, and until he meets the Winchesters, has absolutely no idea that they are anything but products of his own imagination. How is this possible? Many-Hell,most- of the Brothers hunts are bound to get national coverage, that's generally the way it goes with serial killers, yet Chuck never notices that this gruesome series of murders in Anytown USA bears an uncanny resemblance to one of his books? This is especially true for the murders that turn out to be to be caused by human beings ( Family Remains and The Benders), there's no way a Serial murdering Redneck family in the backwoods of Minnesota isn't going to be plastered over every news channel for at least a month.
    • Chuck seemed to very much be a recluse - little to no contact with the outside world beyond the essentials (food, toilet paper, et cetera...) would likely make it so he misses most of this. I can't recall, do we even ever see a TV among his possessions? Mostly, it seemed like he had been burdened with telling the stories of the Winchesters to the point where it had become his entire life. The angels are dicks indeed.
    • Alternatively, Chuck not knowing is an act because he is God.
    • Well, if Chuck really thought he was making this all up, remember how he described his visions? They were basically just dreams to him. Lots of writers (esp on crime procedurals like Law and Order, for example) use real life sensational news stories and put them into their work. He probably just thought that the news was influencing him, kind of like "I heard about x news story, what if it had demons?"

  • Very Minor one, but why did the little girl in "Family Remains" tauntingly write "too late" in the dog's blood after killing it?It's stated that her and her brother's mental states were pretty much on the level of animals, homicidal, but not sadistically evil. It seemed like something an intelligent and sadistic killer would do, not a adolescent, undeveloped,and animalistic one.

  • How is Pamela the BLIND psychic wearing makeup in Death Takes A Holiday? It seems a little far fetched that she could sense that.
    • The same way any other blind woman learns to apply makeup or any blind man learns to shave. It's a combination of touch, instruction and practice.

  • What do Sam and Dean do for money? What do they do for food? How do they keep gas in their car?
    • I can't recall if this is canon or fanon, but a lot of fanfic has them make most of their money hustling pool. In canon, they seem to have fake credit cards.
      • I don't remember what episode it was in, but in canon they seem to have a system of hustling pool where Sam pretends to be drunk and loses a few games, Dean pretends to get him to stop playing, the mark bets a ton of money, and Sam unexpectedly wins. Since they usually have cash on them and fake credit cards are rarely seen after the first season, things like this seem like the most likely way they earn money.
      • Also in the Season 5 finale, Chuck mentions that Sam "used to insist on honest work" to earn money, "but now he just hustles pool games like his brother".
      • How much money could they possibly get that way? They probably don't go for fancy when they travel, but it still takes a whole lot of gas, not to mention money for weapons, fake I Ds and whatever other illegal stuff they need. I can't imagine that'd be cheap.
      • Maybe they're really, really good at pool?
      • Depends on how much money the other person is willing to lay down. Might be able to clear a few hundred in a night, maybe more if they're lucky.
      • In the scene where Sam's pretending to be drunk, the mark they're working on puts down a stupid amount of money- something like several hundred dollars on one game. If the brothers are doing that once a week or so, plus credit cards, their income is probably around a few grand a month- not stupidly wealthy, but livable.
      • It never shows it, but they kill quite a few humans maybe they loot the corpses?
      • Credit card scams are mentioned at one point.
      • It has also been implied that Dean has turned tricks, at least early on.
    • The brothers occasionally get jobs at locations they're investigating so they can look around without attracting too much suspicion. They probably rarely stay in these jobs longer than a week or so, but they occasionally pick up real paychecks.
    • But that aside the money situation has become ridiculous as time goes by. As of Season 9, the brothers seem to have two good quality laptops, multiple high quality phones (assuming they don't have plans/contracts/pay as you go for each phone and have somehow jury-rigged them to work for free, they still would need initial outlays of hundreds of dollars to purchase some of those phones), a variety of custom-designed supernatural items like Devil's Trap handcuffs, an extensive arsenal including some seriously rare (and expensive) items, and, recently, fancy new suits for when they're pretending to be federal agents or other professionals. That's on top of gas, food, motel rooms when away from the bunker, etc. AND they're both shown always having wads of cash on them. When you factor in that the brothers are fighting right now, and presumably aren't running their usual pool hustling in their down time, where are they getting the money indeed?

  • Why didn't Dean make a deal to save John (and Evan) from hell in exchange of releasing the demon from the seal back in Season 2 ep 8?
    • There are 2 simple answers: 1) since John sold his soul to Azazel, Azazel alone could decide to return him to Earth. 2) Even if they could have, the demon would have been RIGHTLY much more scared of what Azazel would do to them after releasing John than whatever Dean would have done.

  • The characters routinely impersonate people they shouldn't always be able to get away with impersonating but are never called out on it.
    • Most cops have a very distinctive walk, due to odd muscling caused by wearing heavy belts. Shouldn't someone notice that Sam and Dean very clearly do not "walk like cops"?
      • The show is set in TV-land, so there's no distinctive cop-walk. Funny, huh?
      • It's especially bad when they pretend to be federal agents. Ackles, fair enough, but there's no way in hell a Federal Law enforcement officer would have Padalecki's haircut. It'd be like an investment bank manager with a green mohawk.
      • The improbable haircut goes hand in hand with the tidy appearance of hunters who travel around non-stop and live in motel rooms. It ranges from impractical to just plain impossible, so there's no way to justify it, but I personally like to think of it as an acceptable break from reality.
      • Point. They're shown washing their clothes at a laundromat once, but that doesn't explain how their suits are always so tidy.
      • Also, you have to understand, this is a universe where Castiel (a character who has once been described as "dresses like Columbo and talks like Rainman") can pass himself off as an FBI agent. While holding his badge upside down. People are just that gullible here (at least in the later seasons).
    • One season 1 episode has them infiltrating a fraternity house just by claiming to be brothers of a different chapter who need a place to stay. All well and good except that most Greek organizations have some form of a secret password which would probably be expected from someone who shows up out of the blue and even if this frat didn't Sam and Dean didn't have any letters or pins. And no one even called or texted someone from the chapter they claimed to be from.
    • It was the car. When they showed up. Everyone seemed to be working on a car of some kind. So when they showed up in this thing and gave their lines, it was believable just in the way they said it. Besides that there was the death that just happened that might have been pretty distracting. Grief does things to people, especially in schools. Their arrival wouldn't have been nearly as questioned as it would be in a normal situation. It was a mix of them being confident, having the right car and showing up in a time of grief.
      • I'd like to think Bobby has a list of all the secret frat passwords. Seems to fit him.
    • They did get called out in "Criss Angel is A Douchebag" by the magicians, who were so used to deception that they saw the signs right away.
      • They got called out on this plenty of times, especially in early seasons. It's just that the cops usually realized it's all for the perfectly good cause of killing monsters and let them go (or end up dead before they have the chance to notify someone). Doesn't do the tiniest least to justify it as far as the law is concerned, but still makes more sense.
      • In the first episode, Dean actually got caught pretending to be an FBI agent, and I think it happened again at some point, but not enough. They constantly go around questioning witnesses and looking at corpses, so shouldn't they walk into a real agent at some point? The closest thing I recall happened in Sex and Violence, where the agent turned out to be a siren.
      • In 'Phantom Traveler' the real FBI did show up eventually while they were checking out the wreckage of a plane. That was one of the first episodes in s1 though.
      • Actually they were Homeland Security, that was the first time they've pretended to be someone so official.
    • It also might be some sort of Bavarian Fire Drill. Basically, flipping any sort of official looking paper or card under someone's nose will get people to comply if you seem like you are allowed. This is why our teachers (law, economics, history and ethics and a few assorted others) are required to inform us how to handle a situation where someone flashes a badge and tells you to comply is make him hold the damn badge still until you can check and double check it because otherwise, someone can just flash you a student ID and you're still gonna do as they say. It gets even more noticeable when the person being shown the badge is in distress because there seems to be a part of the human brain that just wants to believe that someone else can handle this and someone else will know what to do. So I guess they just have to get the timing right as not to run into any officials and the civilians take care of themselves.
    • Also going to use literary analysis here and say Sam and Dean the characters are very different people from the actors who play them. The Sam and Dean we see are are just the actors Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles. Sam and Dean in 'real life' are likely trained experts at impersonation who can and do change their haircut, walk, matter of speaking and body language as need be.

  • Why are the relative power levels of beings on this show so wonky? Jesse is outrageously powerful. Why? He's just the offspring of a normal human and a normal demon. If anything, he should be weaker than a full-blooded demon (see Inuyasha), not practically as powerful as God. And then you have the so-called "Pagan Gods", or what some other works would call "Powers". Why are they so ridiculously weak? I get that they're basically tulpas and many of them are depowered by lack of worshipers, but still, come on people, they're still Gods! They should be, at the very least, equivalent to an archangel in terms of their power over reality, and, last time I checked, Gods were immortal and, at the very least, nearly indestructible. Always. Or they're not gods. Usually only a god can kill another god. It should certainly take a whole lot more than an iron axe or wooden stake to ice one!
    • Gods Need Prayer Badly is part of it. Also, I've been under the impression that killing gods is temporary, and they'll reincarnate soon. But that's just my personal Fan Wank.
      • Needing prayer may justify some, but not all. I think Kali is still getting plenty of prayer, thank you. Hindus are a fairly big chunk of the world's population.
      • According to wikipedia, there are 3.8 billions followers of the Abrahamic religions, or 54% of the world's population (and even if you don't count Islam with Christianity, there are still around 2 billions Christians in the world). Hinduism has "only" one billion followers, so if the gods' power is determined by the number of prayers, it's normal that Kali isn't as strong as God or one of the strongest archangels.
      • Kali isn't worshipped by the majority of Hindu's either; its doubtful if she would get the whole billion to herself. Plus, its pretty obvious that Angels and God himself don't need prayer at all. Especially since the pagan gods in this show "prayer" seems to have meant human sacrifices (which might explain Kali again, if she is worshipped but isn't being fed).
    • I know this isn't "it just bugs me" anymore, but this really just bugs me. The show was fairly consistent in showing gods as people-eating monsters that could be killed with a wooden stake. The one exception actually turned out to be an archangel. Why on earth do so many people not only expect but assume that we're working off American Gods rules here? It may suck, it may be a failure of storytelling, but that's what it is.
      • We Are going by American God Logic Because the creators cite it as an inspiration
    • The answer here seems to be the "not permanent" one. Killing Osiris explicitly only lasts a couple hundred years. Sure, he canonically came back from the dead once, so he might be the exception rather than the rule, but it makes sense that all the gods can do the same, with varying time spans.
      • The RL answer would be that the Winchesters simply can't beat a deity at full power. That might work in Riordan's logic with superpowered protagonists or whatever, but hunters are just normal humans in this setting and they need to stand a chance. The obvious solution would be to have them fight stuff that people can believably beat, so I suppose the writers didn't think that far. In an attempt to justify it in-universe, I'd say that the people who wrote the myths didn't know how strong the gods were in the first place, just saw that the magical being can make their lives suck as it pleases and agreed to worship it (gods were shown to be rather weak physically, but most of them still had the powers of a deity to some degree, like the scarecrow thing that brought fortune to the town).
    • As for the Antichrist boy, he seemed generally out of place in the setting. The writers realized perfectly well that he's a game breaker and made him disappear in the same episode he first appeared in, so the only role I could imagine him to have was to feed Sam's obsession with people leaning on the dark side. He could serve as a convenient Chekhov's Gun with the whole leviathan thing, but the writers of Supernatural never seemed big on the whole plot thing.
      • Still doesn't explain why the boy is so strong. I would've still bought it if he mysteriously had powers similar to those of the strongest demons, since I doubt there is an exact formula on the subject of half-demon-hybrids, but Jess is probably on par with God.
      • Haven't you read Good Omens? I'm not sure if this is actual Biblical scripture, but most (and I mean MOST) renditions of the Antichrist is that his power is anything he believes is true, is.
      • To answer that, no it isn't in the Bible. And "most" renditions of the Antichrist do not have that power.
      • Actually it makes sense that the boy is so strong, now that the revelation about souls being like self renewing nuclear power stations for angels and demons. The kid is biologically human, with demon powers, so the demon powers he inherited he fuels with his human soul. Regular demons are diesel, he's nuclear.
      • I think the main reason they made the boy so powerful was to justify the Bad Future we saw in "The End". Everybody besides Lucifer seemed to think that in a Michael vs. Lucifer fight, Michael would win, so they needed someone even stronger to take him out. In the alternate timeline Sam never rejoins Dean, Dean and Cas fail to stop Jess without him, Jess turns evil and destroys the angels as Castiel feared he would, and Lucifer takes over the world.
      • Where do you get that?
    • Just throwing this out there... in Norse mythology the gods will age and die without special rejuvenating apples. One of them gets killed by a stake (of sorts) to the heart, just like any human would. Gods do not HAVE to be immortal, they do not HAVE to be invulnerable, they do not HAVE to be anything you seem to think they are. The traits of the gods will depend on the mythology/religion/work of fiction they come from. Turns out, in this one? They're not invulnerable, at least not all the time.
      • "A stake (of sorts) to the heart": for the curious this is a reference to the Norse god Baldr (the original spelling of :'Baldur'). Check out Baldr's Wikipedia page for the story of the "stake," notably the Prose Edda. It's one of this troper's personal favorites from Norse mythology.

  • Eve, the "Mother of Monsters". Why is it, most people begin to get suspicious of her when they notice that she's barefoot? Do barefooters not exist in the world of "Supernatural"?
    • The hunters are so used to dealing with supernatural stuff that they actually get caught off guard a few times when their opponent turns out to be perfectly human, so who knows, maybe they didn't think of that.
      • Maybe it's just me, but if I see a girl walking around a city barefoot, I assume she either lost her shoes somehow or dumped them because they were too painful to walk in. So really, it'd look slightly weird if said girl wouldn't show any sign of discomfort.

  • In Good God, Y'all, Sam realizes that he still thirsts for demon blood when he stabs the teenagers. Later in the episode, it's made very clear that they weren't demons. Why did Sam want their blood so badly, when it's made very explicit that they weren't demons and therefore not capable of bleeding demon blood.
    • Can he distinguish possessed from non-possessed blood? Probably also influenced by the illusion? General craving brought on by the sight and thought of demon blood?
      • He can, as of 'My Bloody Valentine' - at the very least, he recognized the demon on sight (or smell) under Famine's influence. Probably doesn't work quite as well under normal circumstances.
      • Actually, when you watch the scene with the knowledge that it's an illusion, it delves into pure Fridge Brilliance. Watch Sam's face closely. Never once does he actually display any kind of craving for the blood. Rather, he's looking at it in a vaguely befuddled way... like he can't understand why he doesn't want it.
      • I don't think he can truly tell them apart, but if he does know on some subconscious level that it's normal human blood, then it could still remind him that he wants the real thing. Psychological reaction and such.
      • War seemed to imply that in a way, it's not just the demon blood Sam thirsts for, but violence in general. Though maybe he was just taking things out of context to mess with his head.
      • War was clearly shown to be able to influence everyone's vision. There's a possibility that the mirage extended to other senses like smell as well.

  • In "The Curious case of Dean Winchester", Bobby believed that getting de-aged by the he-witch's magic would un-cripple him. It's the whole reason he even bothered gambling, as he wouldn't want to be twenty-five years younger in a wheelchair. Also, technically all he'd need to be cured would be one year of his life back, because it would take his body back to before he received the stab wound. So why didn't Sam or Dean use a chip to help him? Granted, it would mean Dean aging a year, but as "The End" showed us, he'll look almost exactly the same in five years anyway.
    • Even if that worked it might mean Bobby would just be crippled again in a year.
    • Maybe not, he was crippled when he stabbed himself, his age had nothing to do with it. Logically if aging backward would heal him, aging forward wouldn't cause him to become crippled again.
      • But then, how would reversing his aging process do anything about his injury? It could worked if the witch's power relied on reversing-someone's-time logic, but to me it seemed like Bobby was desperate enough to rely on a 'maybe'.
    • I always interpreted this as Bobby having an off-screen arrangement with the witch, something like, "I'll let you trade 25 years for your legs." Sam barely won Dean's years back, he couldn't win enough to cash for Bobby's legs.
    • Judging by the de-aged guy they found earlier in the episode, it seems like de-aging would restore the use of his legs, but it's unlikely that general aging would re-cripple Bobby. On the other hand, hunters do have an appalling death rate, so he might not consider it a factor.

  • In "The End" Dean drives the Impala to a hotel. Because Zachariah got a tip-off to Dean's location, he tortures him with a vision of the future and threatens to do it again and again until Dean agrees to be Michael's vessel. Luckily Castiel teleports him out in time before this can happen, but what about the Impala? It's been established that the angels knowing where you are is bad news, so if Cas teleported Dean back to his car so he could drive away, they'd both be susceptible to angel fights and torture. Same applies too in "Abandon All Hope" where the Impala is left in an area later affected by hurricanes and other natural disasters. It's possible that Castiel can just remotely teleport the Impala to wherever it needs to be, but I don't recall ever seeing that happen, and it would contradict Cas needing to go to Jerusalem to pick up holy oil.
    • It would probably take him less than a second to teleport back and forth to get the car and then go get the oil (except that another angel could catch him on the way, so yeah).
    • There are several occasions where Dean drives the impala somewhere and then Castiel teleports him somewhere else for his own safety. What happens to the car? If Castiel teleports him back to the car, he's putting him in danger.

  • The fact that we, considering the state of Raphael's Vessel in "Free to you and me", aren't going to meet Michael. I am sure he would have been awesome.
    • We see Lucifer interact with his vessel (Nick, not Sam) before being given permission to possess him, so there's no reason to suppose that Michael couldn't do the same with Dean. That actually brings up my own IJBM - why the hell hasn't Michael done so, given that from what we understand he's rearing to kick baby bro's ass again. Fair enough, he probably won't have any more luck convincing Dean than the other angels have, but isn't it at least worth a try?
    • In "The Song Remains the Same," Michael-in-John tells Dean that he won't leave him a drooling mess like the other archangels leave their vessels, so there's hope yet. And yes, he is pretty awesome.
    • Speaking of vessels, this has been bugging me non-stop: why was Anna's solution to the Apocalypse is to kill Sam? Won't that make his body free for the taking as Lucifer's vessel? I mean at first I thought it was the whole 'consent must be given' thing to acquire a vessel. But the episode before that, when Sam traded bodies with the teenage kid playing with witchcraft, the demons were so happy to hear that the kid had acquired Lucifer's vessel and told the kid to hand the body to them. Implying that with Sam's soul out of his body, him consenting is no longer necessary. Won't the same thing happened if he's dead? Who's the genius that thought up *that* ?
      • Incorrect. The implication in "Meat Swap" is that the young witch will be tricked/tortured/whatever into consenting for Lucifer. Hence the demon asking the kid if he wants power, because if there's one thing being Satan will get you, it's power.
      • In addition to the above, it seems as if angels, unlike demons, generally need living hosts. Otherwise, Zachariah would've just killed Dean off long ago so Michael could have his meat suit. Lucifer, being an angel, albeit a fallen one, would still need a living vessel. After all, he certainly needed Nick's consent. Therefore, if Anna kills Sam and the angels don't revive him, Lucifer's true vessel is dead and rendered useless.
      • Not necessarily. Raphael re-possessed his vessel, and the poor guy was left brain-dead by the experience.
      • Plus, Anna mentioned that after she kills Sam, she's going to destroy his corpse by scattering his subatomic particles across the cosmos.

  • The revelation that Mary and her family were hunters. It seemed like a great idea, and unexpected, but later on it didn't make any sense that Sam and Dean wouldn't have found out about it at some point before this. Mary's family seemed like they were a respected family of hunters, that died under incredibly shady circumstances, and even if they weren't keen on working with others, that had to be noticed by other hunters. We're supposed to believe that the years John was searching for the cause of her death and presumably networking with other hunters, even some that might have known of her family, this never seemed to come up?
    • Because Hunters being killed is in no way unusual whatsoever, for starters. Secondly, it happened a damned long time ago and thirdly, it's pointed out in season 3 that Azazel buried the truth and killed most of the people who would've known. Dying in shady circumstances is rather, well, par for course of Hunter life. Notice your complaint hinges on some hunters MAYBE having known the Campbells 10 years later beyond that they died... and even if John Winchester knew, think he master of keeping things from his kids would've bothered to tell them? Seriously?
      • Some hunters work together because they're family, others for the sake of convenience, but there's no real network between them - it's just about knowing that guy who knows that other guy who works in the same field. I don't know if it's universal, but Sam and Dean in particular wouldn't have known any other hunters without Ellen's shelter and their father's old contacts.
      • The Winchesters seem to be even more paranoid than 'normal' hunters. Never mind that, though, their father kinda liked painting his wife as an innocent soul who got tragically killed by a psycho demon - thus his obsession with revenge. It was technically true, but not quite, and he probably never found out the details.
      • Exactly. From what we've seen the only real ties between hunters are guys who have worked together after running into each other on jobs, or people who know Bobby. Or Garth now, I suppose. It's entirely possible that John never found out about his wife's past, because from what we see of Sam's research into the subject, Azazel killed everyone even remotely connected to people who knew about the Campbells (Which explains why monsters are running so rampant, I suppose) and it would have taken John a while to shift from "former Marine and husband" to "monster hunter," during which the demons were cleaning house and covering their tracks. Sam finds out that literally everyone who was connected to Mary Winchester died, not long after her death. "Her doctor, her uncle everyone who ever knew her, systematically wiped off the map one at a time."

  • I know it's been a while but I'm still annoyed by the end of "It's A Terrible Life" where the new angel told Dean to stop whining because his life wasn't that bad. I mean, I know the writers have to move the plot forward and that everything bad in the world happening to one character can be seriously numbing to the audience but seriously? Why go to all that trouble to Break the Cutie that violently if you just feel that he's been complaining unnecessarily all this time? It makes no sense.
    • Now that we know more about Zachariah, this is less the writers speaking through him and just plain chillingly callous from the character.
    • Also, the message of the episode in general was kind of irritating and Anvilicious: Working for a corporation is evil! Pure evil!!! Apparently even Zachariah thinks so! Also anyone would ever enjoy a corporate lifestyle has to be a "douche" according to the characters.
      • Hey, I agree with that point...
      • Thing is, not everyone does. A huge percentage of the workforce in urban areas work in a corporate office. And some people *gasp!* actually are fine with it; some people like driving Priuses (something that was considered an element of "douchebaggery" in this episode), some people enjoy eating salads for lunch (another part of the whole lifestyle that was mocked in the episode), etc. Some people actually are happy in a managerial position. Does that make them all evil douchebags? You may/may not agree with it, but it's still Anvilicious, and given the fact that the writers themselves work for a network co-owned by Warner Bros and Viacom, it may be a case of The Man Sticking It To The Man...
      • Or to put it simply, it's the whole inane AmbitionIsEvil trope.
      • I actually thought it was not so much that the writers think the corporate life is douchey, but rather that Dean does. If it were Sam eating a salad or driving a Prius, no one would raise an eyebrow, but Dean? Dieting? Working a 9-to-5 job? It comes across as douchey because it's so far from his basic character traits that he's unrecognizable.
      • In season 7 Sam actually does some of those things and Dean is kinda skeptical, so it's probably exactly as you said. Not to mention that the Winchesters are all too screwed up and morally ambiguous to be used to get a point across.

  • In Something Wicked, in the flashback, Dean was hungry and was going to eat the last of the Lucky Charms, giving Sam a bowl of Spaghettios. However, when Sam complained and insisted on the Lucky Charms, Dean went and threw out the Spaghettios. Presumably, he then went hungry. Why didn't he, Dean, just eat the Spaghettios, using another container (even a cup would do) for Sam's Lucky Charms?
    • It bothered me that it's said Dean hid them but the Lucky Charms are right on the counter.

  • Does it seem a little improbable that every single town they go to have their local papers archived online? Some articles even dating back to the 19th century? Really?
    • Really good local archivists? A tech-savvy local historical society? It's not that weird for bigger towns, but it's difficult to suspend disbelief at times.
      • They do look through tons of real newspapers in libraries, though. Which I still don't get, because who would keep all those old newspapers? I used to live in an (admittedly not American) small town and the only archived newspapers in the library were scientific stuff for students.
      • Did they actually have everything archived on the internet? Every single newspaper? That seemed so unlikely that I found myself assuming that it's just the murder cases and other dramatic stuff.
      • There are places, mostly schools and universities all over the world that basically have the job to keep a copy of every damn thing that has ever been printed within a certain radius. So maybe the towns don't archive the newspapers online, but someone else did.

  • Okay, this is kind of Meta, but isn't it very tasteless to dedicate a dead co-workers death in a episode where no-one can die?
    • ...They wish the co-worker didn't die? I would've thought that would be obvious.
      • But then they pointed out that people dying were better than the... OOh..!

  • Okay, so the last scene of Heaven and Hell made me cry and it's all Jensen Ackles' fault. But there is still so much Fridge Logic here. For one thing: HOW CAN DEAN STILL FUNCTION IF HE REMEMBERS ALL OF FORTY YEARS OF HELL?! Even the sanest, most well-adjusted person would have been rocking back and forth in a padded cell and, as far I know, nobody on this show is even nearing sane and well-adjusted.
    • Because Dean Winchester is just that Bad Ass.
    • ...No. I'm with the first guy - he was in hell longer than he'd been alive. He'd pretty much consider hell to be his "home", and one would think have reacted a wee bit more enthusiastically in the premier when he got out of his grave. And I don't care how Bad Ass a character is, audiences and (hopefully) writers recognises that hell is a pretty bad place to be stuck, and if you send a character there you cannot have them Bad Ass their way out of it.
      • Dean seemed pretty noticeably shaken by it, what with him crying nearly every episode since then and having flashbacks. Also consider that he spent the last ten years of that time being the torturer and not the victim, so while I'm sure that was traumatic, probably not as much as if he'd been getting tortured the entire time. Another thing to consider is that you're applying your idea of hell to Supernatural and judging Dean accordingly, when there's no reason to believe what Dean encountered is at all similar to what we expect of hell. Ruby even states plainly that very few portrayals of hell have gotten it right save for Hellraiser, which she admits came close. Given that John spent a year in there and never took the deal Alistair gave him, either John is the master of willpower or hell must not be nearly as bad as we think it is.
      • Even Alastair admits that John was made of "the stuff of legends".
    • Because all badasses whine and cry constantly... no... wait, I got that wrong... or you did...
      • Because it's considered badass to be emotionally dead and unfazed by being forced to commit horrible acts in exchange for not being the victim of them? Given that Dean is more or less a deconstruction of the typical badass, this makes plenty of sense for him to be so distraught while a more typical badass would be fine. The former is slightly more realistic.
      • I'm not so sure. Dean is still less heroic than the hero of a more idealistic show, but the fact that he was tortured for three decades before cracking seems far fetched to me. I'd get it if it was a years, or maybe even a few more if the character in question is incredibly badass, but for longer than he's lived on earth? I mean, come on. That's not humanly possible.
    • This troper is also pissed off about that turn of events. Four months, okay, I can take that, but 40 years?! How are you supposed to emphasize with that? Besides, when Dean was a spirit in "In My Time of Dying" he didn't remember anything when he came back to life. Why does he remember after coming back from Hell? Because an angel did it this time? You'd think an angel would be more considerate. I really liked the first three seasons of the show, but this whole Dean In Hell thing... not so much.
      • Because the angels have been so considerate thus far? In any case, it's a lot easier to forget a days worth of experiences than 40 years, and you'll note that the reaper was able to bring all of Dean's memories back with a kiss, so they couldn't have been buried that deeply.
      • I would guess it has something to do with the difference between his spirit being put back in his body (what the reaper did to him) and his body being reconstructed from/around his spirit (what I guess Castiel did).
    • It bothered me too, but I think it's common in fiction for trauma to not always be portrayed realistically, even if it's not usually this drastic. On the other hand, if it WAS portrayed realistically, Dean would be completely comatose and unable to function, making him worthless to the plot. The only in-story theory I can think of is that in Hell, a human's mind can only break so far, keeping them totally aware of what's happening. That's probably not the case, but if you really want an explanation, that's all I got.
      • You have to keep in mind, that whole "comatose and unable to function thing" probably has a lot to do with the damage to the physical neurons in the brain, which physically change in response to our experiences. Without that pesky physical brain, that wouldn't happen. After all, what good would all those freshly-damaged-souls-turned-demons be if the "conditioning" rendered them completely helpless? Admittedly, some biopsychology is a little reconcile with the whole "soul separate from your physical body" thing, and Dean was obviously affected by his stint in Hell, but given some time, I could probably come up with plausible explanation.
      • But if the soul doesn't get influenced by torture as much, what's the point of hell in the first place? Unless time passes differently there specifically for torture to work better.
    • You have to crank your suspension of disbelief up a notch: Maybe Castiel had some angelic magic mumbo jumbo that prevents Dean from breaking down under the weight of what he did in hell.
    • Perhaps the fact that he can keep going even remembering what he's been through is part of why they need him.
    • This Troper just thought that Dean didn't have his memories of Hell when he first got out, and they came back to him over the course of the next few weeks. Whether that's due to angelic manipulation or just a pitiful attempt at suppressing a past trauma is up to you. Either way, that would make it a lot easier to deal with.
      • This. It didn't seem like Dean could remember everything from the moment he crawled out of his grave. He seemed very confused and disoriented at first and I doubt everything was still crystal clear. He began to get worse and worse as the season progressed and I figure that's because his time in hell was coming back to him (probably the more he hunted and killed, re-opening those buried memories). It's possible that he was able to convince himself that it wasn't all real at first, I doubt his mind could handle it all if he didn't hide the majority of what happened from himself. Didn't Alastair have to remind Dean who he was, it didn't seem like Dean remembered anything about him until he actually SAW him with his own eyes.
      • I had figured that the angels popped up a wall similar to what Sam got in Season 7 (temporary, they don't have Death's level of juice) to help him cope and let the memories come back slowly.
      • I'd also imagine keeping Dean in-line with threats of returning him to hell (which the Angels do a lot) would be kind of hard if he doesn't remember how terrible it was. Compare his devil-may-care attitude about it for most of Season 3 to his abject fear of returning in Season 4. Without his memories he'd be back to how he was in Season 3, scared to die but defiant and naive enough about what hell is to invite it on himself.
    • We have an entire trope for how stupid this is, Out of Time, Out of Mind. And yes, it's very stupid.
    • I think I've figured it out. A soul outside of a body is resistant to change. Think of all those ghosts doing the exact same thing for 50 years straight. Given that they can go through decades as a ghost without changing much, it kind of makes sense that it would take a lot more torture for a soul in hell to get significantly affected.
      • There was also the whole deal with Sam's soul; it was stuck in the cage and gathered its own memories, while his body went around doing the same on earth. In a very far-fetched attempt to justify Dean's issues, I'd say that the brain and the soul 'remember' in two different ways, meaning that when Castiel recreated Dean's body, it restarted from the personality he's had at the moment he died, and for whatever reason, only later remembered the memories that came with his soul. Okay, that made a very limited amount of sense.
      • Also, going back a little here, doesn't the body shut down in response to trauma as a coping mechanism? It's one of your brain's ways of defending itself. That would count as a kind of escape, and Demons obviously wouldn't WANT their damned souls to be capable of ANY kind of release, so maybe being in hell forces you to remain JUST sane enough to function and fully experience the torments without offering any kind of release? That might explain why Dean is still functioning now after 40 years. Perhaps it's similar to, say, the WMG explanation of how the immortal Jack Harkness was still relatively sane after being buried alive for 1000 years: he was only sane at the ed of that because he WAS sane at the moment he became immortal. Dean can only cope with what he knows now because he was relatively (for a Winchester) sane when the whole mess started, and was literally forced to remain sane for over 30 years.
    • I agree that we should have had some explanation, but I reconciled it like this: the body/mind and the soul are separate entities. This concept is reinforced by the separation of Sam's body and soul in Season 6. Obviously there's a lot of inter-connectivity between body and soul, and a soul is capable of experiencing and feeling pain as though it has a body and mind. But when it comes down to it, it was Dean's soul being tortured in hell, not his body nor his mind. It was undeniably effective torture that felt very real and very drawn out, and when he was resurrected, he remembered all of it. However, being in a renewed body with an intact mind probably caused him to feel a disconnection from the torture of his spirit. He was spiritually empty and broken, but the damage wasn't mental because his body and his mind were dead while he was in hell. He was able to press on without having a mental breakdown or whatever because the pain was deeply spiritual, a sort of gnawing hole that didn't directly affect his sanity or physical well-being. That's how I see it, anyway. Once again, there probably should have been some kind of explanation within the show itself.
      • And when Sam got his "flayed-alive" soul back in season 6, the torture had been much worse and longer-lasting, so it did destroy him mentally. However, even then it took a long time for the damage to his soul to take over and really send him off the deep end.
    • This troper always thought Dean's seeming lack of observable trauma from his time in Hell was nothing more than him not thinking about it. Kind of like a "I have to go on no matter what and thinking about this is going to break me and I can't deal with that right now so I'll just ignore it and hope it goes away." I believe he even tells Sam in one episode not long after he's resurrected that he doesn't want to talk about it even though Sam insists Dean needs to. I could be wrong on that last bit, though. Either way, Dean does say he doesn't remember his stint in Hell at one point, but we can see he quite clearly does. That makes me think that Dean's just trying really hard not to remember in the hopes that he'll actually forget the experience.

  • The family's repeated issues. Mary can't stand the thought of John dying, so she sells her soul (kind of) to save him. John can't stand the thought of Dean dying so he sells his soul to save him. Dean can't stand the thought of Sam dying so he sells his soul to save him. And then Sam can't stand the thought of Dean dying but by now the demons have thought that this whole thing has gotten a bit ridiculous and refuse to do the deal. Am I the only one who agrees with the demons on this?
    • It must be in the genes.
    • To be fair, you could probably write a whole essay on this. For example, it wasn't just Mary sad at John dying, John represented her hope for escaping the hunter life (sweetened by Azazel promising a quiet life too), etc. Of course, Bobby, demons and nearly everybody makes jokes about the Winchesters' "need" for self sacrifice.
    • I found that quite convincing, actually.

  • Seriously?! What possessed GOD himself into making the Leviathans in the first place! That is just a massive screw up right there! Either he did it on purpose, or he felt having a bunch of hideous, ravenous and bloodthirsty Eldritch Abominations running around the Earth was a picture perfect idea!
    • God in Supernatural is by no means "perfect." The Leviathans were probably his first attempt at creating a living, physical being (personally I believe that the Archangels came first, but they're astral beings like God so that's different), and we know that they lack "souls" in the traditional sense, which is a characteristic that, if Soulless Sam is any indication, leaves one with a hungry and purely instinctive mentality. God might not have thought of the concept of a soul yet. Besides, Death described them as the "first beasts," so it's likely that they were supposed to fairly animal-like in their behavior.
      • We really don't know how perfect God is or isn't. Considering that we know to some extent fate is real in Supernatural going so far as telling Castiel not to step on a specific fish because He's got plans for it. So this God set two of the most powerful beings in existence, Lucifer and Michael against each other and then trusts that his thousands of years long Xanatos Gambit ends with two humans preventing a fight that would have destroyed half the planet. He clearly cares about the planet given his bringing bringing Cas back TWICE and yet he didn't step in directly. The man has a plan and it seems to work very well with him only stepping in a few times.
      • God doesn't actually seem to have that many of his own plans. Had Sam and Dean given in and become vessels, the planet would have been trashed and God likely wouldn't have done a single thing about it, because it wasn't him who was making sure that the plan happened the way it was "supposed" to; that was all Michael and the angels' doing. God just made sure that Sam and Dean had the choice to fight against the plan, because what God supports is free will. But he's gone now, so nothing that's happened since Season 6 has been the result of anything God did other than ensure that free will was an option. Also, Castiel was told not to step on the fish by "an older brother," meaning an angel.
      • This troper finds it unlikely that something as major as the opening of purgatory, escape of the Leviathans and within a year not only have they stumbled onto a solution they would NEVER have tried on their own. Seriously how far down the list of what can kill this do you think the hunters around the world would have been before they discovered Clorox! Oh and then a tablet shows up telling how to kill them permanently and you don't think the big guy had this planned up to and including that Lucifer who really and truly didn't want to fight his brother would lose a battle of wills because his vessel caught sight of a plastic army man?
      • God didn't necessarily want the Plan to be carried out, hence why he enabled Sam and Dean to choose free will. In case the angels *couldn't* carry out the Plan, and in case somebody *did* try to unleash the Leviathans, God wanted to make sure that there would be a way to stop them, hence why he had Metatron write down the Word. Remember, God was worried that the Leviathans would consume everything if they were to escape Purgatory, and since he didn't have an overtly active hand in the event of the Apocalypse, he couldn't control whether or not somebody else would try to access Purgatory (Lovecraft had done it pretty easily before; decades prior to the whole Apocalypse scenario, so it's not even like this sort of thing is unprecedented). There is such a thing as taking precautions, you know.

  • How do ghosts/demons actually function when it comes to the salt issue? It confuses me because the Winchesters are constantly salting the doors and windows instead of a solid perimeter. Ghosts have been shown both passing through objects but also teleporting. I don't see why ghosts don't just walk through a wall. In the case of demons I don't see why they don't just punch through a wall or if that would be too slow drive a car through the wall. While we're on the subject why don't the Winchesters carry rock sale or salt licks and just salt the places they are staying. If I lived their lives demon proofing a place would be like locking the door. You do it every time, everywhere for obvious reasons.
    • Most magic operates on metaphor. By sealing the entrances to a space you're metaphorically sealing the entire space, which means effectively sealing it in a magical sense. As to why hunters don't do this everywhere they go, it may draw more attention than it's worth if it's not needed. If nothing else, you'd have to do it every time you went in and out of the room.
      • I very much agree with the metaphorical magic of just sealing the entrances. Regarding why hunters don't just spill salt everywhere: remember that, prior to the end of the first season, hunters didn't really encounter demons very often. They dealt with monsters and ghosts more than anything. Salt doesn't do anything against monsters, and one can reasonably expect not to be attacked in the middle of the night by ghosts, which tend to haunt certain areas. The only reason the Winchesters and other hunters are encountering demons all the time now is because A) Azazel's grand plan brought them into prominence and now Crowley's ambition is keeping them there, and B) they opened the gate to hell, which let a hell of a lot of demons out. Even now, though, the boys are good at keeping under the radar and most demon attacks are unexpected. They probably should make a habit of salting up, though.

  • What exactly is Lucifer's motivation? We spend an entire season with the devil doing all these awful things which made sense if he wanted to destroy the world. Then in Swan Song we see that Michael and Lucifer genuinely love each other and don't want to fight. After everything Lucifer had done up to that point I can see why Michael would willingly fight his brother to the death but I don't know why Lucifer did any of what he did instead of getting out of the trap and immediately taking out the demons because he felt responsible for them call up to Michael and tell him Dad's wrong. I'm not gonna wreck this place, I'm not gonna fight you instead doing every horrible thing a monster does and then asking Michael not to fight. It just seems like he would have been much better of negotiating with Michael before doing anything than after. Given what we know about the Angels it's not impossible, or even unlikely that the angels would have figured a way to frame Lucifer anyway. Lucifer seems to be overall a decent guy in the end.
    • A decent guy who tortured a human woman (Lilith) until she became a sociopath just to prove a point? He didn't suggest to Michael that they don't fight to spare the planet - he suggested that they don't fight because he didn't want Michael or himself to kill each other (or if you are more cynical, he didn't want Michael to kill him). He was still in full "puny hairless monkey" mode regarding the human race and killing off demons was only to show that humans disgusted him even in death (demons disgust him because they are what humans can become). Its quite clear that Michael, Raphael, Zachariah and any number of other angels, maybe even the majority, agree with Lucifer that humans are worthless trash- the only difference between them and him is that they were smart enough not to voice that opinion (or act on it via trying to actively torture and corrupt mankind). And bear in mind he unleashed and was directly ordering around the 4 Horsemen and all the other apocalyptic forces that were running around in season 5. His goal was to Kill All Humans and then ask God why he cared about them as much as he cared about him, when humans are pond scum and he, Lucifer, is like, totally awesome and the greatest guy around (he seems to think God is awesome only because God created someone as incredible as him, and maybe his bro Michael and the angels in general). Lucifer caring about Michael and the angels doesn't make him a "decent guy" if he still wants to torment and kill everybody else.
      • Have to point out one thing; Michael didn't hate humans. He never expressed any such sentiment. He was simply more concerned with achieving his "destiny" and doing what he thought a good son should do than he was with the well-being of humans. And really, he had no reason to be concerned about the humans, since from his perspective they would all either go to Heaven or get to live in paradise once he won.
    • Lucifer could be seen as a tragic character...if he didn't want to wipe the entire human race (and demons) out of existence. I mean, if you came home to your loving father one day and there were suddenly ferrets all over the house crapping on everything and chewing on your stuff and your dad said you had to love the ferrets more than him, and then had your brother throw you out onto the street for several billion years after you refused, you'd be pissed off, but you probably wouldn't a) torture a ferret until it went insane to prove a point or b) try to wipe out every ferret in the house on principle. As for the angels, it seems like some of them share Lucifer's opinion of humans, but they weren't going to openly disobey as Lucifer did. Or they could just be pissed off that the humans are screwing up and Dad's not around to deal with it. Just think of what Dean would have been going through if Sam ran around the motel rooms stringing toilet paper on the walls and screaming while John was out being a terrible father.
    • Lucifer is supposed to seem sympathetic and friendly. He's a silver-tongued, self-righteous manipulator who cajoles, coerces and tempts. That's where his real danger lies. On some level he probably believes that he is a tragic victim whose only crime was love. But that doesn't stop him from being a deeply destructive fallen angel whose contempt for humanity (and demons) is matched only by his jealousy of them. He will gleefully kill them all for that very reason - and to stick it to his father for his perceived betrayal.
    • Alternatively, Lucifer is a fallen angel, and we've seen how well angels do in regards to free will. It doesn't seem to go very well. Despite having fallen, Lucifer is shown to still require permission to get into a vessel, which means he's probably still bound by the angelic way of thinking, which includes being unable to handle having that choice. As a result, he follows the path of destruction because that's the path that he's told he is destined to have, rather than choosing to do something other than battle Michael.

  • Why did Lucifer torture Sam in the Trap? Remember here's the course of events. After a year of the two fighting each other Lucifer admits that he doesn't want to fight, Sam prevents that fight and the thank you he gets is being tortured?
    • For the Evulz, of course. And he doesn't "admit" he doesn't want to fight- he tells Sam whatever the hell would make him susceptible to a Satanic possession; pure manipulation. He is pissed off at being back in the cage and he doesn't really have anything better to do, so he takes his frustrations out on Sam. Remember that no matter how Affably Evil and nice and reasonable Lucifer may act on the outside, underneath it all he is a narcissistic, sociopathic sadist who thinks Sam and Sam's entire species should be utterly eradicated, and he's spent the last few billion years locked up in the deepest, darkest pit of Hell plotting spiteful revenge on the human race for his dad kicking him out for a petty misdemeanor (ie. torturing someone into turning evil and creating the race of demons). It would be more unusual if he wasn't such an Ungrateful Bastard.
    • There's also a theory that it wasn't really Lucifer doing the torturing: When Sam flashes back to Hell, he remembers being consumed by flames. Lucifer is confirmed to run cold and turn his surroundings to ice, but Michael has been shown killing people by setting them on fire. Granted, there's still the fact that Sam hallucinates Lucifer, but his mind is pretty scrambled by that point, and when Castiel takes on the hallucinations they change after a while, so Sam could have been misremembering.

  • What criteria does the Blood of the Fallen guide actually follow? Castiel is no longer a fallen angel (technically, he never even was one, he was just cut off from Heaven), so his blood shouldn't qualify. While the Word Of God could be asking for a fallen angel in a more metaphorical sense, there's really no way to quantify a metaphor. And on that note, is there something special about the King of Hell's blood? Theoretically, the King of Hell could be ANY demon, so how does the spell know the difference?
    • It was a poorly thought out Deus ex Machina to a poorly thought out arc. The whole Leviathan arc didn't make any sense, they were Informed Ability villains from the start - they are supposedly immortal and incredibly powerful, and yet the only REAL powers we see them show are shape shifting, throwing a person across the room, and standing around being beheaded - none of them put up a serious fight. There are literally DOZENS of ways they could have killed Sam and Dean at the drop of a hat - explosives topping the list. The guys posing as them for bank robberies? Why aren't they packing suicide vests and blowing both them and the Winchesters up instead of engaging in a wrestling match - they can heal, after all! Their leader is a billionaire, and they can copy anybody they want - why aren't they packing heavy automatic weapons? The FBI mole that saw the beheaded Winchester clones - why didn't he inform the FBI that they WERE NOT the Winchesters and let the country-wide manhunt continue? Hell, offer a reward of $10 million for information on the Winchesters, and buy air time in every media outlet in the country to advertise! To top it all off, the grand Leviathan plan DID NOT REQUIRE DICK ROMAN ALIVE TO WORK. They already had the drug to pacify the population, and they had already begun distribution of said drug. Literally all the Leviathans had to do was walk outside and start eating, and they don't because..... they're really, really distraught by Roman's death? Crowley claims he has an army outside to kill them... but if it was that easy, why didn't he do it at the beginning of the season and save everybody the trouble?
      • I was, um, kinda looking for an in-universe explanation, but I suppose that works too.
      • I don't necessarily agree, but can't necessarily argue with your assessment. I can, however, offer reasoning for some of it. Apart from the fact that having the leviathans just blow up Sam and Dean with explosive vests would prematurely end the show, Dick was aware that secrecy was their most important weapon, and concerned himself with keeping anything strange out of the public eye. Their efforts were somewhat hampered by that. I recall the reason that the manhunt ended being that bringing the Winchesters back from the dead yet again would strain credibility too much. In addition to that, the leviathans were just incredibly arrogant and, to their detriment, didn't consider the Winchesters to be a real threat.
      • Regarding the threat being over, it was heavily implied that the Leviathans had a strict hierarchy and would flounder without their head, plan or no. This is the downside to their frightening amount of organization - without their visionary, they pose very little threat. I think most or all of the commanders were taken out, and... well, that's just the reasoning that the writers went with. Obviously the Winchesters needed to find something capable of killing the leviathans, and the writers decided to make it a one-use item. They could have just as easily decided to make it a super-powerful weapon that could be used indefinitely and would easily kill any and all leviathans, but they decided that the leviathan lore would have them helpless without their leader - perhaps paving the way for encounters with more independent leviathans in future. It seems fair enough to me.
    • I don't know about the "fallen angel" thing, but the rest is just something we see all the time with magic. There's no real difference between the King of Hell's blood and a normal demon's, just like there's no difference between a virgin's blood and a non-virgin's, or between a saint's bones and a sinner's. Trying to make sense of magic is always futile.
    • It might be because I try not to read too much into tv, but I thought Castiel was a fallen angel when he got kicked out of heaven for helping Dean in Season 5 OR another explanation could be when he went on his entire rampage as God at the beginning of Season 7, killing people who disagreed with him, killing hundreds of his brothers and sisters and even declaring himself God- he lost his way, he fell out of favor. I also thought they made it clear that Crowley was the new King of Hell. Other demons are afraid of him, he tells them all what to do, and he even reorganized Hell when he took over- making everyone stand in line for eternity. I may be oversimplifying, but that's what I assumed when they brought up the blood they'd need for the spell.

  • When vampires, werewolves and similar monsters die, they go to Purgatory. There, they can be killed, again. So, do they respawn somewhere else in the forest, or what?
    • Or as Castiel put it in a later episode: "If you murder a monster in monster heaven, where does it go?". At least the question is here.

  • Was Alistair telling the truth about John being the originally chosen "righteous man" and spending 100 years being tortured at the same level as Dean but not breaking? Maybe I'm just biased against emotionally abusive and absent dads, but did John Winchester really count as a "righteous man"?
    • In terms of the people confined to Hell, he was close enough.
    • It would not be out of character for Alistair to have lied to Dean about it, the man is a master at torture and he knew exactly how much that information would hurt Dean. It's possible John did break but the seal remained intact, either because he's not a righteous man or because he isn't Michael's intended vessel (the demons may not have known about that last part, but the angels sure did, hence their interest in Dean). Then again, maybe John really is that stubborn. We'll probably never know for sure.
      • Thing is, we have no idea how much John knew about Azazel's endgame. We know that he knew about the Special Children, but not what they'd be used for or why, and if he made the connection between a righteous man shedding blood in hell and the first seal being broken. Had Dean known what it would have brought on, he'd have been just as stubborn as John presumably was.

  • Castiel being a monster magnet in Purgatory. Apparently this is the reason he initially abandoned Dean, that's he afraid the Leviathan will come after him for revenge. But Castiel didn't kill Dick Roman, Dean did. Sure, Castiel helped, but that just means the Leviathan should be after both of them and not just Castiel. And apparently, it's not just Leviathan that are after Castiel, but every single monster in Purgatory. But Leviathans aside, Castiel is probably the single most badass guy in Purgatory. If anything, his presence should repel monsters -Given how easily he can roast vamps, werewolves and whatnot, shouldn't they want to stay away from him? It's like the writers wanted Castiel to be a burden, but really didn't think it through. And while we're at it, Dean being human apparently allows him to escape from Purgatory, possibly taking others with him. Is Benny really the only guy in Purgatory who wanted to capitalize on this? Everyone else just seems to want Dean as a quick meal.
    • For Castiel, it could just be that he's an angel - Leviathans have shown not to like them all that much in the past, and his being in Purgatory was sending out a constant, huge "ANGEL HERE" signal. Regarding the way out, it could be that the other monsters simply either don't know (neither Benny or Dean would be the sharing type) or don't believe them and instead think "Hey, a human. I remember those being super-tasty."
    • It doesn't seem like any of the other monsters know or care - most of them don't seem all that interested in talking, either. Maybe after a few hundred years in that place you just go feral. Plus, how many of those monsters have even seen an angel? Wasn't it like two thousand years between the last angel being on earth and their return? As for Cas being more of an asset than a liability, he wasn't exactly in peak form when they got dropped into Purgatory. From what we saw when he first got his memories back, it seemed to be taking serious exertion just to kill a few demons (although that may have been the memories coming back as well). Monsters hunting him probably just feel some sort of disturbance, head over that way figuring it's something to eat or kill, and find Cas. A theory as for him abandoning Dean - at that point, Castiel is looking for "penance" for what he did in Heaven, which when you consider what he says a little later on, can be taken to mean "getting his ass ripped to shreds by monsters for all eternity." He knows there's no way at all that Dean is just going to let that happen, so he tries to keep his distance to give Dean some cover, let him die, and take out as many monsters as he can on the way out. What confuses me is how there were Leviathans in Purgatory, unless some got left behind or were replaced when Cas put the souls back before being taken over at the start of Season 7, since the beheaded Leviathans are explicitly not dead dead, just disabled, and only Dick Roman was truly perma-killed.
      • Perhaps I wasn't paying attention but I thought the monsters in Purgatory could just sense Cas and headed in that direction. He left Dean because he was essentially a glowing neon light displaying 'Come and Get it!' to every beast in the place his penance was just him staying behind instead of allowing Dean to save him. As for why are their Leviathans in Purgatory two answers come to mind. First is that Cas simply didn't get them all, he got hundreds or thousands but there were simply more of them. The other is that Word of God be damned perhaps decapitation IS fatal for leviathan and it just takes a while before they starve, either that or the leviathans that have been decapitated after a certain amount of time simply decide to 'bib' themselves and take the trip back to Purgatory rather than live forever as a head in a box. Bibbing does seem to be perma-kill status as far as we can tell. Crowley also seems to imply at the end of the Season 7 finale that his demons did some clean up work once Dick was dead given the extreme risk of using the weapon to defeat Leviathan maybe killing one of them via those means was enough to break their immortality spell. Otherwise God left behind an awful weapon that requires incredibly rare ingredients to make, is one use only and essentially kills the wielder. How exactly did he plan for humanity or even Angels to fight off a plague using such an absurd tool?

  • Why is it, the whole time Dean and Castiel were in Purgatory, Castiel grew a beard, but Dean remained clean-shaven?

  • Is there an in-universe answer for why demons are so attached to their meat suits? I know the real reason is so keep the same actors and not confuse the audience but we know MOST demons don't have the power to teleport but they can all travel as smoke, which in addition to being faster than walking or driving it's also safer, and your enemies having no idea what you look like has got to make getting within striking distance with the enemy. In fact there doesn't seem to be any advantage to keeping the same body.
    • Well, to be fair, how many recurring demons that don't have the ability to teleport do we even see?
    • Firstly, well, they probably do become attached to their vessels. They likely carefully choose them in the first place. They take particular delight in torturing others, and their vessel is probably no different. Secondly, while demons are shown to be very impulsive
and indulgent, they probably know it wouldn't be a good idea to leave a long trail of recently-vacated vessels behind. If enough people start to raise a fuss about having been possessed and can give detailed information - or if enough suspicious suicides turn up - that just brings hunters down on them.
  • The most curious part is Meg repeatedly taking the same meatsuit - she abandons it after Bobby overcomes his possession at the start of Season 5, then reappears in the same body a few episodes later, just in time to get used as a bridge over a ring of holy fire by Castiel. Then she shows up in the same meatsuit - with the same outfit, no less - midway through Season 6.

  • Sam gave Amelia his real name. Sam Winchester. Not Sam Cole or Sam Jones or Sam Antilles. Sam Winchester. Why did he do this? Putting aside all the monsters and demons and leviathans and whatnot that might be on the lookout for Sam Winchester, as far as the general public is concerned he went on a shooting spree and killed dozens of people a year ago. What would have happened if someone at the hotel recognized him and called the police? Or if Amelia's dad, suspicious of his daughter's new boyfriend, decided to Google him and found a thousand articles about a mass murderer with the same name and face? Isn't Sam supposed to be smart?
    • Apparently the boys are the only ones that know how to work a search engine.
    • Because most people don't google their new boyfriends, Sam is dead so when someone sees Sam and recognizes him they probably shrug it off the same way people do Elvis or Rasputin sightings

  • Other than as a convenient plot device, was there ever really an explanation for John Winchester's odd actions in S1? Why leave cryptic and slightly dire messages like that phone call that cut off, send them on the SPN equivalent of a geocaching treasure hunt, and refuse to communicate with them? He was apparently getting all their messages, but didn't show up in "Faith" when Dean was about to die. Yeah, I know he explained he wanted to keep away from them "for their safety", but that doesn't really explain why he keeps them worried, sends them into danger, and doesn't show up when Dean's time is up. Is there an explanation other than narrative convenience and/or emotional abusiveness?
    • Early-Installment Weirdness. And John being the worst parent EVER. I mean, this is the guy who'd leave two little kids for weeks at a time with twenty bucks, a box of Lucky Charms and a gun, after all.

  • How the heck did a witch manage to cast a spell on a Leviathan? Seriously! They're monsters created long before even the angels, and as they put it "Leviathan beats angel". So how did a still-human witch manage to put a whammy on them to keep them immobile for three days? You can't even stop an angel with Enochian - you can only BANISH them! And if it's an archangel, holy oil doesn't stop them - Michael comes back to a few minutes later to fight Lucifer again. So how did the witch in "Shut Up, Dr. Phil" manage to bind a Leviathan?
    • The Leviathans in general tend to suffer badly from Informed Ability and Strong as They Need to Be, they're supposedly even higher on the badass hierarchy than angels, yet are conventionally less power than even low level demons. Demons have telekinesis, angels can kill with a touch, leviathan can... Punch stuff? Angels and demons are invincible to everything except for a select few weapons or lengthy rituals, leviathans can be defeated by any normal human with a hatchet. Leviathan have been beat by humans, witches, demons, ghosts, and vampires, all of which "grunt" angel Castiel can kill with ease. My guess is that the writers initially did not plan for Castiel to return after his would-be death in 7x02, but later changed their minds due to fan outrage, so they had to pull this "leviathan beats angel" thing out of nowhere for them to remain a threat once he was back even though it made no sense with their previously established abilities. That, or they're just really, really bad at keeping their continuity straight.
    • Don't think of it as a Super Weight hierarchy; picture it as more of an Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors scenario. You can shoot a leviathan, drop a car on top of it, cut its head off, use magic on it, etc., but none of that will kill it. However, it will still yield a physical effect - it'll still have an entry wound from the bullet, it'll still be ground into paste by the car, it'll still be rendered non-functional until it can reattach its head, and it'll still be paralyzed by the spell. Other than borax and the holy bone, the leviathans' primary weakness actually is their physicality - hence why Bobby was able to push Dick Roman around in episode 20. Bobby existed on a spiritual plane, and as such, Roman could not detect him or fight back. With the angels, the leviathans have the same ability as Eve in that they can sever an angel's connection to Heaven, which renders the angel helpless against the leviathan's onslaught. Leviathans and Eve have that ability because they are older than angels, but just because they have a neat trick that allows them to overcome beings who rely on a physical vessel and a power source doesn't necessarily mean that they have a blanket immunity against every other form of offense. Otherwise, the bullets/car/machete would just bounce off of the leviathan's body, and the spell wouldn't affect them. As for the Enochian banishing sigil, that doesn't kill angels because it wasn't designed to. It was designed to banish them. There may or may not be an Enochian spell that allows a person to kill an angel; we don't know (but if there were, it would probably be kept top-secret upstairs). Michael's resistance to holy fire stems from the fact that he is an immensely powerful archangel, which are much stronger than regular angels simply by nature, so holy fire isn't as effective on them as it is on generic angels. Additionally, the ability to block an angel's power doesn't contradict the previously-established abilities of the leviathans in the least, and it only seems like it was thrown in at the last minute because up until that point, we had never seen a leviathan come into contact with an angel and had no reason to think one way or the other on whether or not they could block an angel's powers.
    • The Leviathans are presumably based on "Leviathan" from the bible featured mostly in the books of Job and Revelation. The only distinguishing features of Leviathan were 1. Extreme size and mass (basically a giant kraken-fish-dragon); and 2. Legendary hunger. Leviathan's size was interpreted by the writers as there simply being so many of them. It may even be possible that the black ooze is what's left of Leviathan after so many years in Purgatory and it simply spread, manifesting as hundreds of different hungering personas. As for their apparent sissy-ness, if my above situation were true, then they would all just be fragments- mere fractions of the power of Leviathan. The true terror of the Leviathans is in their nature of being The Devourer. Their only motivation is to eat, and they approached the situation in a very encompassing and practical manner. Human society in capitalist America is most vulnerable to monopolization and disinformation. That being said the best way to do this, since we can only assume that they are aware of their vulnerability to folks with big ass knives, would be to quietly cultivate the human population and eliminate all chances for humans to stop them. Their only real power comes from the fact that they are really really hungry and, like most beasts, relentless in their search for food. Our heroes stopped the guy who had all the power to make this happen and any further attempts at the same plan would fail just as hard since Crowley is no longer (and never really was) bound to any contract with the deceased Dick Roman and hates Leviathans. When you look at it this way, we might actually be looking at Fridge Brilliance. Season 7 was pretty damn scary.
    • Also, the witch was Spike.

  • Why doesn't every hunter bless every body/container/etc. of water they can, every time they see one? It's never been explained if blessing wears off, or how far "blessing" extends into a large body of water (does it bless a whole river if you do the ritual at the shore?)—wouldn't "poisoning the well" whenever possible generally help their cause? This presumes, not unreasonably, that few hunters have learned about non-evil vampires such as Lenore, and would want to harm and hinder all of them as much as possible. (It's too bad you can't bless water that is part of a larger whole—humans are mostly water, and if you could bless that water they'd become essentially undrinkable.)
    • Unless it was a coordinated world wide one day strike against the forces of evil I don't think this would be a good plan. A lot of why the crap hunters pull works is because demons and vampires aren't particularly cautious. Why should they be? You're very unlikely to be prepared to deal with them at any given moment. If they lived in a world where every hose shot acid they'd start thinking ahead pretty quickly.
    • There's the above, and how many times do we see the various monsters drink water? If they drink at all, it seems to usually be beer or harder liquor, which might actually be a sort of precaution against this. The only two times I can recall seeing anyone on the show drink water at all is when Dean downs an entire bottle upon returning from Hell and when Sam takes a swig of holy water spiked with salt to prove he's not a monster. Although it'd be somewhat hilarious if Sam and Dean's solution to a warehouse full of demons was to make an absolutely massive devil's trap around the building before flooding the building with holy water.
    • Would holy water actually kill the demons, or just hurt them immeasurably? I'm pretty sure hunters only ever use it to expose, torture or temporarily immobilize demons. Now, sabotaging major media to play the exorcism everywhere at once would be neat, if hunters had the organization and technical know-how to do it.
      • As stated above this would be great for a single, world-wide strike against the forces of evil but not a whole lot else. We've seen enough demons come back from exorcism to know that the ritual kicks them out of the body, it doesn't kill them. What it would do would be to inform demons that this was possible and they'd start smashing computers and televisions and the like.

  • So what exactly is Sam's problem with Benny? Sam knows that it's possible to be a monster and not be evil (Madison, Amy, Kate, Lenore, etc.) so the whole "he's a vampire" thing doesn't hold much water, especially when Dean's made it clear Benny isn't hurting anyone and he's ready to kill him if he ever does. The thing with Martin wasn't Benny's fault and Sam hated him before it happened anyway.
    • I think this comes down to a few things. First of the "good" monsters several of them have had to be put down for one reason or another and between Meg, Ruby and arguably the angels as a whole Sam might simply be done giving the benefit of the doubt.
    • There may also be an element of jealousy, and of guilt. Dean is gone for a long time, and Sam doesn't even look for him. When Dean returns, he's accompanied by his new best bud who is constantly calling him 'brother'. Sam and Dean have never had any relationships that compete with each other before.
    • It was pretty obvious it was a reaction to Dean's killing the kitsune Amy Pond (no, not that one). Sam wants to give her a pass and Dean kills her behind Sam's back and basically calls him an idiot for wanting to let her go. After that, there's no way Sam is going to give Dean the benefit of the doubt for having a monster buddy.
      • Whether or not Dean did the right thing by killing Amy is a bit of a contested issue with the fanbase, but at least from his own point of view he was justified: Amy was killing people, and Benny is not. Sure Amy had a good reason, but she was still killing people (it was touched on as early as season 1 "Faith" that trading one life for another wasn't right, even if it's an Asshole Victim). At any rate, if Amy is truly the reason Sam wants Benny dead, then that suggests that he knows Benny is innocent and doesn't care, and that he just wants to kill him to hurt Dean, which makes him even more of a Jerk Ass.
      • Plus, Sam already forgave Dean for killing Amy and admitted that he was right to do it in "The Mentalists". However, that didn't stop Sam from bringing her up again in "Southern Comfort"...
      • He only mentioned her to point out Dean's hypocrisy; Dean allows Benny to live because Benny is his friend, but he refused to let Amy go even though he knew how much Sam cared about her. As for Sam being a jerkass about it, he has spent the entire series trying to convince Dean that not all monsters are evil, and each time, Dean has shut him down about it and thrown it in his face to call him naive. Now suddenly Dean is best friends with a vampire who admits to having killed people in the past—keep in mind that he murdered Amy out of his belief that any monster who kills even once needs to be put down—and it's actually pretty easy to see why Sam might be upset.
      • Plus, even though we knew (and thankfully he was proven as such) that Benny was innocent of those murders in "Citizen Fang," from Sam's perspective Dean was trying to defend a monster that was dropping bodies simply because he knew the guy, something that Dean had never let slide with him.

  • Season 8: Where are all the Leviathans? I get that after Dick's death their hierarchy would be in a bit of a shambles, and Crowley's goons dealt with a bunch of them in the s7 finale (all the ones in the building), but there'd still be a good number around America either setting up new plans or going on an unstoppable rampage.
    • Apparently it's past "a bit of a shambles." If Crowley is to be believed, Dick was the only leader they'd ever had since the beginning of time. It's unclear how many Leviathans there were exactly, but many of them were gathered at Sucrocorp when the boys launched their attack, and Crowley's demons apparently cleaned up after they took down Dick, which would explain how Sam managed to make it out of there. If there are any left, they're disorganized, uncertain of what to do, and more than likely scared shitless now that it's been decisively proven that yes, they can be killed. With implements that are quite easily obtainable, no less. I mean, not many people have machetes in their garage, but borax is pretty easy to come by.

  • Why didn't the angels intervene earlier? It's established that a) they knew Dean's importance, as well as Sam's, and b) they can heal someone recently or even long-dead, so long as they can get to the soul. Why didn't an angel - any angel, not necessarily Castiel or Uriel or even Zachariah - just pop down, fry the crap out of Azazel, and heal and/or resurrect Sam to stop the whole Dean's crossroads deal problem? Sam didn't even realize he'd been killed.
    • They could have done that, but you seem to be forgetting, that originally upper management kept the plan to let Lucifer escape secret, they originally made it appear to that they were trying to stop Lucifer breaking out, presumably to prevent rebellion or defection of the lower ranks, who were brought up believing Lucifer was heaven and gods greatest enemy. If they had started intervening earlier then it would have been clear they were trying to cause the apocalypse from the start, after all why protect the vessels if they weren't planning for the fight?
      • Because even if you're trying to avoid something, you keep your hole card handy. It's like the angels resorting to Adam when Dean wouldn't say yes. You don't have to be obvious about it. "Oh, they killed Michael's vessel. Sure, we don't want Lucifer to get out, but I say we don't get caught with our pants down just in case." For reasons of the plot, it makes sense, but it still bugs me.
    • In addition to the above angels aren't omniscient. It's completely unclear as to who knew what at what point and in addition between time travel, seers, fate and God for all we know the angels specifically let these actions take place because Sam and Dean were the only ones who COULD avert the apocalypse and every crappy thing that ever happened to them was part of the plan to make them strong enough to save the world and seal off Hell. We know for example that Azazel knew his plan would work because Sam and Dean told him it would. Lucifer knew the time and place of the Final Battle. The angels clearly didn't know much about the Seals if they had they could have just positioned Angels at them, and definitely could have told Sam and Dean that under no conditions is Lilith to be killed. Unfortunately there are simply too many moving parts in Supernatural which don't have to work in any particularly logical fashion to really figure out anything the writers don't tell us directly.
      • But they did know. They knew Lilith was the final seal, and who the vessels were. As you said, the archangels knew where the final battle would go down. And while the angels clearly knew at least what SOME of the seals were, they obviously can't track demons without looking at them, otherwise people would just be bursting into flames as angels ported in and fried them. The seals being broken still holds up, as while they may have known what the Seals were, they may not have been able to figure out where they'd be broken. I mean, two Reapers going missing could happen anywhere, and while it's implied that thousands of angels can be vaporized without putting too huge a dent in the angelic host's ranks, I doubt they have the manpower to stake out the entire planet. One gets the idea that they've also got other things going on. Maybe angels and demons are constantly fighting offscreen, which would explain why there are so few angels onscreen.
      • I don't think they did know about Lillith. Remember Upper Management wanted the apocalypse, they probably knew what was going on. It seems pretty obvious that Castiel for example wasn't in the know about Lilith or if he was he put on a very convincing act both before and since about both his ignorance and his desperation to prevent the apocalypse. If thousands of them can be vaporized without putting a dent in their numbers staking out a majority of the Seals shouldn't be impossible. Sure some could happen anywhere but others had very specific locations.

  • How come Castiel was able to make an angel-banishing sigil in his own flesh? It was said before that HUMAN blood was necessary. Even if it's the vessel's blood, it's angel blood (same for demons, right?)?
    • That was said by Dean while he was explaining the functionality of the sigil to John in "The Song Remains The Same", so it's unclear why he specified it as needing to be drawn in "human blood" as opposed to just "blood," especially since he had already seen Cas draw some in his own blood by that point. It's possible that he was trying to make it sound more dire in order to dissuade John from drawing his own sigils, or that he simply didn't know there was a difference between human and angel blood by then, but at present, it does seem to be a bit of a Continuity Snarl. However, in response to your second question; yes, it would be the same for demons, since being possessed by either an angel or a demon is known to alter the vessel's blood.
    • My interpretation: I think the requirement for the sigil is that it's drawn with the blood of a sentient being (so either human or angel works.) Dean said "human blood" because it sounds better than "sentient being blood" and only humans were present at that time anyway.

  • Why don't they ever use "Christo" to expose demons after the one episode? Certainly would have made things easier along the way.
    • Because the writers realized it made figuring out who was possessed too easy and quietly Retconned it away.
      • Ah. Yeah, that makes sense. Plus most of the time the demons just reveal themselves anyway.
    • I always figured it was just less effective, the more the boys learned. If you say "Christo", yeah, you'll figure out it's a demon, but now the demon is aware that you know and not incapacitated in any way if it wants to take you out. Throwing holy water or playing it safe until you can trick the demon into a demon trap is a safer way of handling things.
      • On the other hand, considering how much of their demon disposal method involves getting the crap kicked out of them, that may not be all that different from normal.

  • The French Mistake. Why do the boys have such trouble acting? They impersonate federal agents, health inspectors, etc. all the time. I could understand them having trouble with the marks, but isn't it sort of like Cast the Expert?
    • Some sort of stage fright? The difference between pretending relatively minor details are different and having to follow a script and direction? Rule of Funny? There are definitely some options here.
    • They aren't just pretending to be FBI agents. They have to pretend to be Jared and Jensen, people they don't know, and on top of that they have to act as themselves. It's a mind screw just for us to think about.

  • Why doesn't anybody care about Jimmy? Sure, he agreed to becoming a vessel and he has to remain one for Castiel to hang around, but Sam and Dean have met and talked to Jimmy. He admitted to being at least semi-conscious the whole time and said the experience was extremely unpleasant ("like being chained to a comet"). They villainize demons for doing the exact same thing, so why don't they care about Jimmy?
    • Jimmy consented to it knowing full-well what it would entail. Simple as that.
    • There is also the fact that they like Cas and don't know Jimmy very well. It's not like the Winchesters don't have a rather serious case of hero based morality. How many assorted demons and monsters have they simply developed blinders for?

  • The French Mistake as well. Sam and Dean are teleported to an alternate reality where Supernatural is a television show just like in real life, and everyone thinks they are Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles. Where did the in-story Jared and Jensen go? They are not seen or heard from after Sam and Dean enter their reality, so:
    1. Did the Winchester brothers permanently take over their bodies somehow?
    2. Were they outright deleted from existence?
    3. Or were they teleported to the mainstream Supernatural universe in some sort of trans-dimensional person switch?
The third is the least likely, since they are not stated to have shown up there either. In any case, there's now a universe in the show where a cult horror TV show was most likely shut down after part of its cast were brutally murdered by a madman who claims that he's an angel, and the two primary stars have vanished from the face of the earth.
  • Maybe they did end up in the Supernatural universe, but were quickly killed off by some minor evil entity that thought they were the Winchesters.

  • Why did Dean have Castiel erase Lisa and Ben's memories? It doesn't make any sense. It won't protect them, because even though they don't know who he is, he still cares for them so someone could kidnap them again to get to him. And now they won't have the benefit of knowing what's happening because they don't remember anything about demons.
    • Making them safe from demons wasn't the point, Dean wanted to erase himself from their lives so that he could let them go and they could move on. If somebody tries to kidnap them again then he'll save them just as he would anyone else; there's always a danger of that happening (although since Dean has broken ties with them, it's less likely that anyone would bother going for them when there are other people out there who are a lot closer and more important to Dean).
      • Thing is, did Castiel just airbrush Dean out of their memories, or are they now missing a year-plus block of time from their memories?
      • Presumably the former; the latter would be too conspicuous.
      • Good point. But what about all the other people that knew Dean was living with them? The episode with the pod-children established that yeah, Lisa had talked with other people about that weekend she'd spent with Dean, and then he spends a year in town. Sure, someone could think that Dean just left as suddenly as he came, but what happens if he comes up in conversation?
      • I'm not sure. I suppose that even if he does come up in conversation, her and her friends will probably just chalk up her memory gap to some form of amnesia brought on by the "car wreck."
      • Original poster here: Lisa's lack of memories of Dean probably wouldn't come up, because Dean had them move to a different town after the djinn attack.

  • What is the deal with Demon eyes, White eyed demons are supposed to be the strongest right? what about Abaddon, she's the oldest after Lilith, if any demon should have White eyes it should be she.
    • Abaddon isn't exactly "the oldest after Lilith," she's just one of the oldest demons. The thing is, demon eye color seems to be an inherent trait that can't be changed, hence why Crowley still has red eyes despite his elevated position. Abaddon was most likely always a black-eyed demon that was simply imbued with some extra powers by Lucifer (the episode said that the Knights of Hell were hand-picked by Lucifer, so it's probable that there are Knights with other eye colors as well).

  • This may be asking for a fight, but why was Dean so upset about Sam not looking for him? I understand that not bothering at all was a dick move, and it's possible Sam still wanted out after dying twice and spending so much time dealing with Hallucifer and being soulless, but think about it. Upon Dean and Cas getting zapped to Purgatory when Dick blew up, Bobby was dead, the hunter network was toast, Garth hadn't come on-scene as a replacement for Bobby yet, Cas (who had been loopy at best) had vanished with Dean, and Sam had no way of knowing if they were even alive, or if they were dead, where they'd ended up. He has no leads, cracking open the hole to Purgatory or the Devil's Gate isn't going to help, the demons aren't going to assist him (considering that Crowley had just neutralized two of his major opponents), and the angels (the only side he had left to turn to) aren't exactly rushing to render aid, considering everything that's happened. All of this could be easily inferred, but a one-minute-long exchange covering all this could have plugged this hole had they said that Sam didn't even try to look. All this said, it doesn't even seem like he did anything Dean didn't want him to.
    • Sam did have a lead on Dean - Crowley. His dialogue in Sot F indicated he knew what had happened to Dean and Castiel or at least had an idea, which is something for Sam to start on. He also snatched Kevin and the Word of God, which Sam had no excuse for not going after (Indeed, in 8x01 Dean seems even more upset about this than he is about Sam abandoning him). But really, lead or no lead, I don't think it mattered to Dean. What hurt him wasn't that Sam failed to get him out, it was that he didn't try. Sam had no idea how to get Dean out of Hell between seasons 3 and 4, but he still looked for a way. Dean didn't have any idea how to get Sam out of the Cage between 5 and 6, but he still tried (and eventually succeeded thanks to Death). Between 7 and 8... Sam just didn't bother. Dean gets back from Purgatory, having spent the last year fighting for his life 24/7, apparently having lost Cas, and what does he find? Sam's been shacked up with some girl completely ignoring the problems of the Supernatural world so he can go live his perfect apple pie life. Quite frankly, it's amazing Dean was the only character to have a problem with this.
      • I don't see how Crowley is a lead; he's not likely to help and Sam trying to break into Purgatory just seems like a bad idea. You have a point with Kevin, but that may be down to Sam just freaking out (he had just watched his brother and Cas vanish into thin air). And IIRC, Dean didn't try to get Sam out of the Cage between S5 and S6; he went and shacked up with some girl, just like Sam did after S7. Dean definitely stopped hunting, which is one of the things he has a problem with Sam doing in between S7 and S8.
    • I acknowledge the dickery of not looking for Kevin and simply retiring instead of continuing to hunt, but I have to contest Crowley being a lead. We've established putting him under a Devil's trap and trying to negotiate only gets you a hellhound to the face, and Crowley has literally nothing but trouble to gain by helping Sam in any fashion. On the other hand, you're right, there's no sign that he even tried to contact Crowley or the angels in any way. He just freaked out and started driving.

  • Crowley, King of Hell, spends all of season 6 trying to find a way into Purgatory. Then season 8 reveals that Hell has a door that leads to Purgatory. What.
    • Hell doesn't technically have a backdoor that leads into Purgatory; Purgatory has a back door that leads into Hell. Sam had to remove the rock before he could actually use the portal to enter Hell, so presumably, the portal is only two-way once the rock has been removed. When it's sealed on the Purgatory end, there's no functioning portal on the Hell end. Besides, Crowley's goal was to open a portal to Purgatory and absorb the souls, not to actually enter Purgatory (as he would have most likely been consumed by leviathans should he have actually gone there). Simply going into Purgatory wouldn't have done him any good (on the contrary, it would have put him in danger); he needed a spell that would allow him to absorb the souls in Purgatory, and assuming that he was able to complete the ritual, it would benefit him more to be on Earth than in Purgatory, since the only thing he could use his soul-augmented god powers for in Purgatory would be... nothing, really, since it'd be an empty wasteland with no more souls (as they would all be inside him).
    • Unfortunately, when Sam rescued Bobby from Hell, he left the damn thing open.

  • The first time we saw Hell, it was an endless web of chains in a dark green stormy sky. The first time we saw Heaven, it was a labyrinth of dreams. By contrast, Purgatory appeared as an oddly material afterlife, something I assumed was meant to reflect how monsters and leviathans never manifest as spirits. But now it seems that Heaven, Hell and Purgatory have all become places that you can visit in the flesh and through which you can fight your way using physical weapons.
    • Angels have been shown to be capable of wearing their vessels in Heaven since Season 6, and it makes sense. There's no reason why three-dimensional beings shouldn't be able to exist in a higher-dimensional plane.
    • Not to mention that Heaven and Hell seem to be whatever whoever's in charge wants them to be. Azazel and Lilith wanted Hell to be chains and meathooks, but after Crowley took over it's been replaced by endlessly waiting in line. Presumably God or Michael set up Heaven and Purgatory to be the way they are.

  • So...Lilith's death was the final seal. What, exactly, was she going to do if the Winchesters got in a car accident or struck by lightning or something? Commit suicide to pop the last seal?
    • The angels would have probably brought them back to life.
      • The answer is likely two-fold. Lilith probably didn't know that killing her was the final seal. The only hint we get that she "knew" was that she knew she was going to die before Lucifer came to Earth. Knowing that you're going to lose a given fight and knowing that your death is the seal aren't exactly the same thing. Also there is no hint that Lilith and the Angels were in this together. So yeah, the angels would have brought the boys back but Lilith didn't know that and couldn't have been planning on that.
    • OP here. I meant that Sam caught her in the middle of a ritual to do...something, ostensibly breaking the last seal. Had Sam arrived twenty minutes later, what exactly would have happened in the meantime? Was she just going to wait?
      • There is no proof that she knew that her death was the final seal, only that she knew she wouldn't survive to see Lucifer rising. Had Sam been twenty minutes late Lilith most likely would have still been there trying to figure out exactly what went wrong with her ritual unable to fathom why it didn't work. Sam would have arrived and the same scenario would have played out. If he was later than that she'd probably move on to research and the Angels, the Higher Ups who were in on the plot, would have put Sam back on path to kill Lilith. As we learn in the Season 5 finale Lucifer's cage doesn't seem to have a physical location on earth since it's opened in a church (to free him), then a random building (when he fakes out Dean) and finally in a seemingly random field (where Sam takes the plunge) so killing her in a fourth random location would likely have had the same effect. This question really hinges on the idea that Lilith knew she was a seal which she may or may not have.
      • She literally goads Sam into killing her. Why would she have done that if she didn't know she was the seal?
      • She probably knew by then, since she would have to have been instructed not to fight back much and kill Sam. Maybe the "ritual" she was doing was fake so that Sam would think he was interrupting an attempt to break the last seal.

  • In "On the Head of a Pin," Uriel mentions that other angels have joined him with the goal of busting Lucifer out of his cage. When he gets shivved, what happens to the other rogue angels? Did they just fade back into the woodwork?

  • Why in the world would Azazel keep the Colt loaded after giving it to Jake? It only has one round in it, that's literally the one thing that could kill him at the time (Sam's psychic powers having been prepubescent and Ruby's knife not introduced yet). It would have taken him literally ten seconds to disassemble the Colt, pop the last round out, and reassemble it. Did he just grab hold of the Idiot Ball or something?
    • Azazel outright challenges Jake to shoot him, but convinces Jake that the satisfaction of doing so will pale in comparison to the rewards and comfort that he and his family will receive if he simply does what Azazel tells him to do. Also, Azazel was very overconfident, and did intend to shoot Dean with it. (Some have speculated that killing Dean with the Colt would annihilate his soul and make it so that Michael had no vessel to use when the Apocalypse came, thereby ensuring Lucifer's victory.)
      • Except they have a brother and do we even have a reason to believe that Azazel was in on Lillith's plan specifically instead of just releasing demons because Hell sucks?
    • Alternatively, maybe the lock on the Hellgate was designed (either physically or magically) so that the gun had to be loaded in order to open it.

  • What does Hell really look like? In 'No Rest For the Wicked,' it showed Dean strapped to a rack (and it's also been said that he was). Yet, in 'The Man Who Would be King,' Hell was waiting in line for eternity. And then, in 'Taxi Driver,' Hell was just a bunch of cages?
    • Likely it has something to do with Crowley's 'Remodel of Hell' from the start of Season 6. Since Bobby was on Crowley's 'no fly' list it's also likely that anyone he actively doesn't want to reach heaven (Or just plain doesn't like) gets put in this special section for him and his goons to torture at will, everyone else probably still goes to the line.
    • Also, the reason why he converted it into a waiting line in the first place was because it was more efficient and because Hell was full of masochists who liked the torture, but according to Crowley, "nobody likes waiting in line."

  • In "Clip Show" (Season 8, Episode 22), why was Castiel breaking an egg and dumping its contents on the floor of the convenience store? I could understand him leaving the refrigeration unit door open and accidentally knocking over a shelf because he was preoccupied, but the egg just seemed to be... I don't know, him trying to look like some sort of crazy person? It had nothing to do with Dean's gift basket, as far as I could tell.
    • Castiel is an Angel, he probably doesn't understand how humans consume eggs and was investigating it, I thought that was the purpose of the seen, just a confused Castiel grocery shopping.
    • Castiel spent the entirety of the previous episode being horribly injured, after weeks if not months of constantly moving from one place to another with nothing but coffee to keep his strength up, and then when he finally manages to get back to Sam and Dean, Dean is angry with him and won't accept an apology. The poor guy was mentally and physically fried, and trying to regain enough control over himself to do something as simple as shopping must've been quite difficult for him. Hence the uncomprehending child-like actions in the grocery store.
      • It is peculiar though, that Castiel can remember bits of obscure trivia such as humanity's first discovery and consumption of coffee beans, but he does not understand eggs. However, the real headscratcher was his near-smiting of the convenience store clerk over the lack of pie. Cas had spent weeks teleporting from one restaurant to another to evade angelic pursuit. By that point the concept of if-this-store-doesn't-have-it-then-go-to-another-one should have been obvious to anyone with intellect greater than a child. Hence the reason many fans perceive the whole scene as having been yet more Ship Tease on the part of the writers, as opposed to just Cas holding the Idiot Ball, again.
      • It's possible that Cas knows how eggs work in theory, but had never touched one. He picked it up out of curiosity, didn't realize how fragile it was, and it broke. As for the pie thing, I agree with the below poster that it was probably frustration. Another possibility: Cas was too weak from his wound to teleport much at that point (explaining why it took him so long to teleport to meet Metatron at the restaurant that Metatron's crepes had already come out; Cas had to muster up some strength first.)
    • First, I assume that Cas and the eggs was a shoutout to Clerks. I might be wrong and it's been a while since I watched that movie but I swear that scene is straight out of that movie. Second, I think Cas is checking the eggs for something. He's an angel and can probably see some qualities that we can't. As for the near smiting of the clerk he's frustrated with the entire situation. As is mentioned above he's had a rough (couple of years) and pretty much everybody he ever knew is either dead or upset with him. Some are both.
    • If you look at the scene closely, he accidentally sets the six-pack of beer on top of the carton of eggs. He probably noticed it leaking, opened the carton and was wondering what in hell he'd done now. As for his behavior with the clerk? He's frazzled, worn down, probably still off his game from being shot in the gut by Crowley, lost the angel tablet, lost Dean's confidence in him, and is in the process of screwing up the supply run, so the guy is probably on a shorter fuse than normal.

  • Live Free or Twihard. Why oh why if Sam is so smart and quick thinking, didn't he just immediately reassure Dean that he was going to be fine because Samuel had a cure for vampirism? It would have made so much more sense, and would have explained why Sam was so calm. By lying, he just made things unnecessarily complicated - not exactly in-character behavior for someone whose MO was Cutting the Knot.
    • The whole no-empathy thing seems to have impaired his ability to predict people's emotional responses to stuff. Maybe he expected Dean to understand it's necessary and get over it. Maybe he's just being as much of an irrational moron as the Winchesters always were, except without empathy.

  • Is it just me, or should we really NOT be rooting for Sam not to take the final Trial here? Yes, Sam will die, yes, Dean would be devastated, but how can the writers really expect the audience to not put every single Demon related death on Sam and Dean now? Yes, the sacrifice thing had been done, but so much time had been put into the trials this season and now it just seems pointless, yes I get that Dean finds Sam to be more important then strangers that they have to save, and vice versa, but at the same time, this is not a lucifer vs michael situation where the planet would be roasted if either or both of them said yes, this is not a deal that lands them in hell, at worst, they go to heaven, and have a chance of being thrown out and put back on earth. They are soldiers in a pointless war that one or both of them will end up dead in a much more horrific way anyway, so why can't Sam and Dean accept the fact, that they will be saving thousands of lives with only ONE fatality? And more importantly, how are we supposed to cheer for them after this? Because, like I said, every single demon related death that happens from now on is THEIR fault.
    • Are we supposed to cheer them on? I understand that they're the protagonists, but they still do plenty of things that we shouldn't be cheering on. If the writers expect us to side with Dean on this one, then what the hell writers? But if they're just telling us a story that was a perfectly interesting development.
    • Besides, is it just me, or does Sam look like he's dying anyway?
      • I think the point here is that Sam and Dean have spent their entire lives sacrificing everything they ever cared about save the world. It's not at all healthy to martyr yourself constantly (an idea that has been brought up on the show before.) Sam only has one life, Dean only has one brother. That Dean was unwilling to sacrifice Sam is understandable, and he justifies it with the idea that they can find a better way, Take a Third Option. Yes, it's morally ambiguous, but isn't everything on this show?
      • Sam only has one life? Are we watching the same show cus by my count he's on at least his third go round. It's mentioned by Joshua that God wanted them to remember Heaven that time so considering Dean's been to Hell and Sam to Purgatory they've clearly gone down, canonically, at least twice each at this point.
      • Except it isn't morally ambiguous, it's clearly the wrong thing to do, and again, you cannot put one persons life in front of thousands, perhaps millions of people just because they are your family, yes it's sad, but at WORST, Sam goes to heaven and Metatron, while a massive asshole to the Angels, he likes humans and likes the stories they have to tell, so I doubt Metatron is going to fuck with Sam when he has no reason to, so really what downside is there that makes the death of so many people okay?
      • Why not? It would be different prior to say season five but the brothers are aware that Heaven is real. They are aware that you apparently don't need to be a saint to get in and worse the angels as a whole are only slightly better for mankind than demons. Even as of Season 8 if anybody but the King of Hell was trying to prevent his home dimension from being cut off forever we'd be cheering him. He really hasn't done anything Jack Bauer wouldn't.
    • Season 9 hasn't addressed this directly with Hell, but we see that since Heaven is sealed, souls are clogging the Veil between Earth and Heaven instead of moving on. Presumably if Hell had been sealed, something similar would have happened, and "bad" souls, instead of going to Hell, would likely have wound up turning into vengeful spirits with no where to move on to, and therefore almost impossible to get rid of. Of course, the brothers had no idea about this at the time, but in hindsight, not closing Hell may have been the right move.

  • Burning bones kills demons. Does that mean that anyone cremated is automatically saved from Hell?
    • That's...that's a damn good question. It prevents them from becoming vengeful spirits, that's the reason hunters are typically cremated (what with their tendency to die violently and all) but we know it doesn't pull them out of Heaven (Adam got cremated, and his soul was still in Heaven), so burning bones doesn't exactly "delete" a soul, for lack of a better word. I guess not, considering John was cremated and was still in Hell, although that may have had something to do with him having made a deal. I suppose they have to become demons (or vengeful spirits) before torching the bones can kill them.
      • Yeah, I would think that they have to become a demon before having their bones burned affects them. Basically, the deal would be what got John stuck in Hell, and from that point, burning his bones didn't affect his soul just like burning Adam's bones didn't affect him in Heaven. It kinda makes me wonder if, since he had no bones left, he could even become a demon. If so, then he would definitely have a leg up on all of the others.
      • There's actually an early season episode where Sam and Dean have to stop a little girl ghost who is haunting a painting and killing each new owner only to find out that the girl was cremated and there were no bones to burn. I can't remember which episode it is, but Dean ends up burning the girl's doll, which happened to have used some of her hair. So it doesn't have to be bones, just a piece of their body or something closely associated with the dead person. Bobby was anchored to his flask even though his body had been cremated. So, I'm going to say that cremation does absolutely nothing to prevent ghostification or anything else when it comes to the supernatural.
    • Well, as of late in Season 8, it apparently does. "Bobby in Hell? We burned his bones. Once we did that, it was over. End of story." I guess they forgot about John being in Hell after they burned his bones. Maybe it only matters if you make a deal.
    • It's possible that burning the bones doesn't actually do anything to the soul itself. The bones or hair or whatnot serve as an 'anchor' so the spirit can remain on earth.

  • If only 4 angels have seen God, as Anna says in "Heaven and Hell", and Metatron was one of these angels, which of the 4 archangels never saw God? This assumes that Joshua, the gardener angel who talked to God, was not one of the 4 angels who saw God.
    • There's Michael, Lucifer, Gabriel, Raphael, Meta - crap, you're right. Retcon, maybe? Or maybe Raphael never saw God, which would explain his inability to recognize Chuck. If Chuck was God.
    • It's Supernatural and that goes double when dealing with angels. If something said contradicts something we've seen assume we have an unreliable narrator. It's not like the the Higher Ups in Heaven haven't been lying through their teeth for thousands of years. Best guess assuming that's wrong is that Metatron and/or Joshua haven't seen God but the former is more likely.
    • Okay, new theory! Anna wasn't counting the archangels, just plain grunt angels, which leaves Joshua, Metatron, and two other halos who met the old man.
    • Maybe "seeing God" and "talking to God" are different. The archangels actually saw Him, but Joshua and Metatron only ever heard his voice, similar to how the angels can communicate to their vessels with their true voice. Unless I'm forgetting something and it was explicitly said that Metatron saw Him face-to-face; didn't he just write down His will on the tablets?

  • How exactly did the wheelchair-bound Bobby make it to the poker game with the witch in "The Curious Case of Dean Winchester"? If he can't walk, how would he drive?
    • There are automobiles designed to be driven by paralyzed people, as well as people with other disabilities.
      • Alternatively he took a cab or some other way of being driven.
      • Except we see him grab his keys. Unless he's had his car re-fitted, it's still a plot hole.
      • Original poster here - his Chevelle doesn't make another appearance after he gets injured, he's driving a van now. Presumably he just had one on hand in case he or someone else ever needed it.

  • I guess the easiest answer is Early Installment Weirdness combined with Winchesters never learn but in the pilot why are they freaking out that their father had laid salt out? In their line of work I would probably have a ring of salt around my car, in every doorway I ever passed through up to and including the shower door. That should have been evidence that he had been there but not evidence that he was in trouble. Then again we're eight years in and the brothers don't seem to have learned basic precautions either.
    • Possibly because a thick salt line is obvious and leaves noticeable traces, and hunters try to stay off the radar. On the other hand, the boys only ever lay down one line of salt at a time for some weird-ass reason.
    • Also, in the season 1 finale Bobby said that demonic possession was previously extremely rare -he'd hear about a couple cases of it a year- and that demonic activity around the world had only recently increased to the levels we see on the show. Ghosts, on the other hand generally don't target hunters unless they're aware that the hunter is trying to destroy them (or that hunter was involved in their death) so they may have thought John wouldn't have bothered with it unless he thought something was coming after him.
      • Also, a salt line around someone you're defending is a sure sign you're fighting a ghost, as they're tethered to a specific area or object. A salt line around where you're staying? That means something is coming after you, which means a demon.

  • This may be me forgetting about something, but how exactly does Charlie know about Castiel in "Pac-Man Fever"? As far as I can remember, there's been no mention about Chuck actually publishing the books that would represent seasons 4 and 5, as the book series ended with Dean going to hell. Cas is not mentioned whatsoever in "The Girl With the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo" and "LARP and the Real Girl", so unless Charlie's been doing some hard-core stalking (which I wouldn't put past her), she read about it in the books. (It's definitely implied that's where she found out about it too, as she calls him 'dreamy' and I doubt anything else she's going to find on the internet will describe Cas in quite that way.)
    • Either Chuck's publisher or Becky probably published the season 4 and 5 manuscripts after Chuck disappeared.

  • Going back to early in season 6, "Two And A Half Men". Of the previously-encountered shapeshifters, two of the three had Motive Rants, and they both referred to having been monstrous from birth (and thus being treated as a monster), and only later on learning how to become someone or something else. In this episode, the baby shapeshifter looks... like an ordinary baby, who just so happens to spontaneously shapeshift once. This goes against both "shifters are born monstrous" and "shifters learn to change later in life". What?
    • Original Troper here, and I've come up with a couple possible ways to justify it. Either that baby is a fluke and not at all representative of how most shapeshifters are... or, the developmental arc is a bit more complex. Perhaps shifters are born with the potential to shift, but they don't know it... and accidents result in a monstrous appearance. (Horribly disfigured face where the nose, cheekbones, chin, mouth and eyes have all shifted independently of one another; one ear missing because it got pulled off, and they don't know how to grow it back; perhaps even distorted bodily proportions, because some of that has changed.) That leads to the ostracism that the shifters in Skin and Horror Movie talked about, and what they learn later on is how to actually control it, and be what they want to be instead of producing accidents like those. You folks' thoughts?
      • The fact that baby shape shifters tend to disgustingly explode into a new person every once in a while probably has something to do with it as well.

  • The entire basis of Season 5 was that if Michael and Lucifer fought, the collateral damage would have been massive, requiring the Winchesters to Take a Third Option. But we see tons of fights involving angels, including Lucifer vs. Gabriel, and in every single one the collateral damage is minimal. In fact, Angels only seem to cause collateral damage when they aren't operating through a vessel. What made Michael vs. Lucifer special? Raphael caused a lot of damage on his way to possess his vessel, but Michael managed to possess both John and Adam without much collateral, so that can't have been the issue.
    • Michael is more powerful than Gabriel, so he would have been able to put up a bigger fight against Lucifer, which would have probably resulted in them going for the big guns instead of just using angel swords. And if the Biblical Apocalypse is anything to go by, there would have been many more angels and demons involved in the prize fight (or at least warring it out in the periphery) as well.
    • I figured it was less of the fight itself and more of the implication of the aftermath. Lucifer wins, he wipes humanity and demons off the face of the earth and then...I guess cracks open a beer and reigns over the lump of charcoal that the Earth would be at that point. Michael wins, he...pulls the Biblical Judgment Day? Zachariah was the first one to say that massive numbers of humans would die ("How many humans die in the crossfire, huh? A million? Five, ten?" "Probably more.") but it's entirely possible he was talking out of his ass.

  • Why on earth did the demon in "Goodbye Stranger" call Meg... well, "Meg"? It's fine for the Winchesters, since that's the first host they saw her in and they don't know her real name, but why is another demon—who presumably knows her real name—calling her that? Did the writers just forget that it's not her real name? Were they too lazy to come up with a real name for her? Or ''is'' that her real name?
    • Probably for the same reason the angels appear as their hosts in heaven. Laziness, lack of creativity or inconsistency between the writers. The only in-universe reasons I can think of is that the demon didn't know her real name, or maybe demons just don't like bringing up their human lives.
      • Them appearing as their hosts in heaven is probably both to save on CGI (Zachariah has three faces and one of them is a lion!) and for our convenience so we don't have to figure out who is who for the brief scenes that happen in heaven. Considering Hell and Purgatory seem to be physical locations you can get to by taxi it's entirely possible the angels with vessels do take them to heaven with them. As for Meg maybe that is the name she goes by.
      • This is outright confirmed by Zachariah in 'Darkside of the Moon' (Also he has six sings and four faces, not three, one of which is a lion!) Sam and Dean and presumably the viewer see them as humans because they are limited. So it is explained in-universe though out of universe it's to save on CGI or avoid having multiple twinkling lights conversing.

  • Why, oh why would Azazel put Sam (Lucifer's true vessel, I remind you) in the line of fire at the end of Season 2, knowing how pissed Lucifer would be if he wound up dead? It seems like anyone could have broken the devil's trap in Wyoming and opened the gate, and Sam was presumably the "very special child" that Lucifer told Azazel to look for in 1972. I somehow doubt that Azazel was aware of the plan to have Dean wind up in Hell and break the first seal, and I also doubt that Lucifer was in on it.
    • He likely didn't know if Sam was the vessel or not, otherwise, why even bother making the others? He probably just figured if he made them kill each other, the one that survived would be the strongest and most worthy of Lucifer. Also, if you believe Alistair was telling the truth in OTHOAP about John being their first attempt at breaking the seal, then Azazel was in on it, but either they didn't know the seal would be broken by Michael's vessel or they didn't know that Dean was Michael's vessel (which ties back to them not knowing Sam is Lucifer's, what with the connection being their relationship as brothers).
    • Why would Lucifer be pissed? From what we can see bringing people back from the dead isn't particularly difficult for Angels, certainly not for people on Lucifer's tier. Personally though I don't think Azazel or even Lillith really knew what the game plan was. Remember Crowley seems to be the only demon who suspects that Lucifer will destroy them the moment they aren't useful.

  • When Dean killed Sam's Kitsune friend, a couple episodes later he attempted to justify killing a monster that killed four people for her child that he has to do the hard things and make the hard decisions. As far as I can tell, that girl did not need to die and the efforts were justified considering the people she was killing. They were much worse in general than she was, and commmitted much more damage to society. It feels like Dean doesn't have a leg to stand on.
    • Dean draws the line with monsters at killing, and Amy had crossed that line, even if she had sympathetic reasons for doing so. Also, just because somebody is an Asshole Victim doesn't mean they deserve to die or make killing them any less of a crime. I don't think either brother was supposed to be completely in the right about the Amy situation, but Dean's actions were justified, at least from his own perspective, even if you don't personally agree with them.
      • In addition Dean has a very strong pro-human stance. One that doesn't seem to be particularly warranted in the Supernatural-Verse but there's that. In a recent episode he found a group of kids who were hunting and killing innocent vamps and they weren't just forgiven, the idea that they were doing something wrong was barely addressed. That's just how Dean functions and just like real people have their hiccups do does Dean.
      • Or in other words, Dean is a racist asshole. Get used to it.
      • With some exceptions. Of the two brothers, it's Dean who's had a vampire BFF.

  • In "Point of No Return" (Season 5, Episode 18), Adam says that his mom worked the graveyard shift at a hospital, and that he had to make his own dinner and put himself to bed. Graveyard shift is usually midnight to 8 AM, or a similar timeframe, depending on the job. Wouldn't she be home to make him dinner and put him to bed? Obviously she had to sleep, but she would have had ample time to do that between getting home and going to work.
    • "Graveyard shift" more or less is any shift that runs through the wee hours. 8 PM - 4 AM would be perfectly fine to call a "graveyard shift", which would miss both dinner time and bed time in the home in which this troper grew up. 6 PM - 2 AM could technically be called a graveyard shift, too, though it would be be a bit odd.

  • Castiel said that dean's necklace burns hot in the presence of God, and dean wears it all the time, but when he met Chuck, it did nothing, so how would Chuck be God?
    • Well, in Dark Side of the Moon Joshua basically said that if God didn't want to be found, that necklace wasn't going to give him away. Which kinda makes the whole bit about it being a God-detector pointless, but whatchyagonnado.
    • Plus, God kinda, you know, created the universe. If he doesn't want that necklace to detect him, it's not going to detect him, since he can just warp reality around it in a flash.
    • In addition it's entirely possible that any combination of God wasn't on Earth and couldn't be detected because he wasn't here, he didn't want to be found (either of which are supported by Joshua's claim and the fact that in the thousands of years since he vanished the Angels never set up a search party with it) Chuck might not be God and even with Wordof God supporting that he is perhaps just like the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are "separate entities" that are all God perhaps it only reacts to one of them or doesn't react to one of them and whichever is true Chuck was fine and Joshua was really saying 'don't waste what little time you have left boys. If God was going to help he would have answered your prayers' which frankly he might as well have said.

  • If the world and humanity was supposed to end back in season five, then why did god assign prophets for the years after (such as Kevin)
    • Because He works In Mysterious Ways.
    • It's mentioned that Castiel knew all of the possible prophets, with their names "seared into his brain." If Chuck died, they could simply activate Kevin or one of the others. Also, over on the WMG page it's speculated that the apocalypse was less of a scheduled event and more of all of Creation's final exam - if they could pass the test and avert the apocalypse, they were ready for free will, and further Prophets would be necessary.

  • So, Raphael's goal in Season 6 is to restart the Apocalypse. Just how was he going to proceed with it? Bust out Lucifer and Michael, so that they could duke it out on Earth after all? How exactly?
    • Pretty much what you just said; he wanted to let Michael and Lucifer out so that they could pick up where they left off.
    • Yeah, seems simple enough. He was stalling so he could unite Heaven so he wouldn't have any pesky rogue angels sandbagging him. Then he cracks open the cage (presumably with the Horsemen's rings), beats the ever-loving crap out of Sam and either Dean or Adam until they give their consent, and away they go.

  • Okay does anyone else have a problem with Azazel telling Dean that Sam wasn't all Sam and never elaborating on this??!?!?!?! I mean sure Dean questions Sam's well being for a while but we never figure out what he meant by that.
    • Season 3's plot ended up being changed significantly due to the 2007 writer's strike (Originally, Dean would not have gone to Hell and angels wouldn't have been introduced) so this is probably just another element that ended up being dropped. I believe in-universe, Sam's darker behavior was explained as him trying to toughen himself up and be more like Dean. Azazel's dialogue could be Hand Waved as him having lied just to mess with Dean, which would be disappointing but in-character for him.
    • Becomes Fridge Brilliance when you consider season 6, in which the Sam that is resurrected is legitimately "not all of Sam".

  • They say, many times, that Azazel always makes his fateful visit to his children exactly six months after they're born. This sounds like it means six calendar months—a birthday on January 1 means Azazel comes on July 1, March 2 means he comes on September 2, and so on. But notice that this sounds like an exact timetable, but it isn't. An exact timetable would be something more like 180 days, or "half a year" (183 days). For it to be exactly six months, Azazel would have to be scheduling his operations in such a way that he uses the human system of dates. And the demons in Supernatural, and Azazel in particular, don't seem to be all that integrated into human society.
    • They do seem to have some sort of commonality with human society - ten years on the deals, after all. They have to be somewhat aware of human time.

  • Why are Sam and Dean still killing demons in Season 8 rather than just exorcising them and at least trying to save their hosts' lives? I mean, if they're planning on sealing the Gates of Hell forever, automatically banishing all demons from Earth and permanently trapping in Hell, that's as effective at stopping them for good as killing them is, and has the added possibility of the hosts surviving and being able to go on with their lives. Didn't Sam and Dean use to feel, you know, bad whenever they didn't save the hosts? Sam and Dean never actually seal all the demons away, but they didn't know that when they were going around stabbing tons of people to death.
    • Yeah, they did feel bad in the past. They've gotten a lot darker and more ruthless, if you look at their Season 1 personalities compared to now. Besides, when the demon is actively trying to kill you there's not a whole lot of time to trap them and exorcise them. The only reason they got away with that in Meat Swap and when Crowley was holding Lisa and Ben hostage was because the demons didn't want to kill the boys.
    • They haven't really shown much concern for killing the hosts since at least season four or five. Nothing quite like the very near end of the world to give you a perspective change. Besides a lot of that was back before they had the colt and the demon killing knife. Lets face it if we learned anything from Meg it's that demons aren't usually too careful about what happens to their meat suits and going through the motions of trapping and exorcising them is a lot of personal risk to take on for no guarantees where as in the earlier seasons an exorcism was literally the only way to deal with a demon that had any chance of taking.

  • What ever happened to Jimmy Novak? Especially now that Castiel is human. Is he still in there?
    • I'm pretty sure his soul is in Heaven because Castiel died multiple times, and so he probably wouldn't survive, although his vessel did
      • Cas' dialogue in My Bloody Valentine indicated Jimmy was still present inside him during that episode, and at that point he had already been killed and resurrected once. Unless God just decided to do it differently the second or third time, he was probably still there.

  • In 'Defending your Life' Dean is captured by an Egyptian god of vengeance and put on trial and it reveals that he feels at least some guilt for things. Some of things he feels guilty for are debatably his fault but the lynch pin in the trial seems to focus on the idea that Dean is somehow responsible for Jessica's death because he went to get Sam to help look for their father. This late in the story (season seven) that shouldn't have flown. By this point it had been revealed that everything that happened to Sam and Dean during the first five seasons was a deliberate plot involving Azazel (Yellow Eyes) and the Arch-Angels to destroy the world and get Sam and Dean to accept Michael and Lucifer as their hosts. Had this happened before all the time travel that revealed the deal their mother made or before the angels fessed up to the plan it would make sense for Dean to feel guilty about what happened. The circumstances certainly fit but given their current knowledge his guilt makes very little rational sense. It would be one thing if they'd made it clearer that he wasn't responsible, at all, for those things and that his guilt was irrational but they play it like he has reason to feel guilty or at the very least like his innocence is confirmed not because those things didn't happen because of him but because he had no way of knowing they would happen in advance.
    • It's acknowledged in the show that those things aren't his fault, but he still feels guilty for them. It's even mentioned. If Dean doesn't feel guilty, he's not. The only reason that Dean was pronounced guilty was because he didn't want Sam to find out that he'd killed Amy and gave in to Osiris.

  • Why didn't the other angel recognize Ezekiel when he saw him? That seems rather suspicious. Castiel recognizes the name, so there is an angel named Ezekiel out there, but what if it's not really him?
    • Because it wasn't really Ezekiel, and Gadreel - who the angel actually was - had been locked up in "Heaven's deepest dungeon" for an eternity, so virtually no angels knew what he looked like.
      • That's still a bit of a problem. Angels seem to all recognize each other on sight, presumably because of a "true face" similar to demons. So while it makes sense that Gadreel has been MIA so long that nobody recognized him why wasn't it immediately obvious that this WASN'T Ezekiel unless he's also on some kind of severely extended vacation.
      • Knowing that somebody exists is not equivalent to knowing what they look like. Just because some angels have heard of Gadreel does not mean that they met him personally or know what he looks like, and thus, they would not recognize him upon seeing him.
      • Of course not, the fact that nobody recognizes Gadreel makes perfect sense. Why didn't anybody recognize that he wasn't Ezekiel though? Just because I cannot identify who you are doesn't mean I can't call you out for not being who you claim to be. So the real mystery is why doesn't anybody know what Ezekiel looks like despite angels apparently being few enough in number that Gadreel choose a name people would recognize presumably so they wouldn't ask too many questions he could answer instead of claiming to be Bob from the 8th Choir's 51st Garrison.
      • He never actually told another angel that he was Ezekiel. He told Dean when Dean stuck him in the holy fire ring after the other angel had already been taken care of, Dean told Cas over the phone and Cas never saw possessed!Sam during the first half of the season, and the only angel he met face-to-face was Metatron, who already knew (presumably because he'd been watching from Heaven). It's likely why he didn't want Cas to stay in the bunker; he was afraid Cas would see him at some point and the story would have to come out, and Cas would be able to realize that it wasn't Ezekiel.

  • Historically speaking, why is it necessary for hunters to keep the existence of monsters, demons, and other supernatural creatures a secret from the general population? After all, it is obvious that people once knew that the supernatural was real (that is where all the myths, legends, and lore come from), but since monsters, in the Supernatural-verse, are demonstrably REAL, why did people ever stop believing in them, especially since they are obviously quite dangerous to humans? In short, what is the purpose of The Masquerade?
    • Maybe it was a way for the monsters to keep themselves from going extinct because humans became really good at hunting.
    • There doesn't seem to be much of an effort to keep things secret for the sake of The Masquerade. Hunters only lie about the things that go bump in the night because if you tell a cop you're hunting a vampire and show him all your gear, he'll lock you up. They've revealed the truth to a number of people. As for why the average citizen doesn't believe in them? I suppose it's possible monsters went underground for a couple centuries so people started dismissing them as myth, or demons did something to eliminate all the "official" records of vampire or werewolf attacks.
      • It seems more likely that there is no official Masquerade in this world and never was. It was always considered a bit crazy to believe in monsters because they were sufficiently rare in most cases that most people didn't see them. There were occasionally people who told stories just like the real world has Santa Claus, Yetis, honest politicians and Elvis sightings on a regular basis and enough that people are familiar with the lore but they aren't real. Supernatural still has roughly the same religions as the real world which it shouldn't since God is so MIA that most Angels only believe in him in theory because they've never seen him, Angels are so MIA that even hunters don't believe in them prior to season 5 yet there are enough gods and sufficiently powerful monsters running about that they should have their own little religions because they are both real and ACTIVE.
      • Yeah, I have to agree with the above post. It seems that the likeliest answer is that the supernatural is simply rare enough and usually leaves behind little enough conclusive physical evidence that most people who never encounter it don't have much reason to believe it exists. And seeing as Hunters mainly deal with dangerous supernatural creatures, and their main goal is to stop them from killing people, they rarely have the opportunity to bring a werewolf or a vampire in alive to prove it to the world or much inclination to do so.
      • In addition very few supernatural beings can even remotely be brought 'in' safely. Demons are supposedly rare until the Devil's Gate is opened and most other critters don't even have something as safe as a circle you can draw to hold them in place. While the more recent seasons introduced the Men of Letters which suggests that modern (meaning the last few decades) of hunters may have been much less efficient than hunters old it's easy to forget how much modern equipment the hunters use. Without a national weather service, and cars and freeways to travel the country tracking supernatural things is incredibly simple. Those storms that form patterns Bobby is able to google up over a weekend would have taken weeks (or someone much more paranoid than Bobby) to track down as recently as the early 90's.

  • Why, when Sam rescued Bobby from Hell, was their having salted and burned his bones a problem? It's been well-established by that point that angels can re-build a body from a shattered wreck (in Dean's case) or a salted and burned pile of ashes (in Adam's case) without much problem. So it's not like they couldn't bring him back, it's just a matter of the trials. Why even bring it up?
    • They weren't really on good terms with Heaven at that point.

  • In the flashback scenes of "Slumber Party" Dorothy says that she cut off the Witch's head. Obviously she either reattached it or grew a new one. Which brings up the question of why she couldn't do the same thing with her tongue.

  • While Judao-Christian mythology clearly takes the lead, is there any official word on the origin of the world or if we're taking Cas's word for being there before there were people, where all the other Gods came from? In Hammer of the Gods it outright states that the various Pagan Gods at least believe that they were around prior to God and resent him thinking he has the right to end the world at his leisure. So are they just monsters that have bought into their own hype?
    • This is mostly conjecture to the point of Wild Mass Guessing, but considering Jesse's power was that of human belief fueled by demon blood, maybe all humans have minuscule amounts of this power naturally. Let's say a Norse warlord named Odin and his son Thor win almost every battle they participate in. The word of mouth makes people believe they're superhuman, so by the power of common belief, they develop demigod-like powers. Their following grows and their village, Asgard, and their people, the Aesir, are look upon like gods, and so gods they become. Today, every one is a little more skeptical, so urban legends don't automatically become true, but there was a time when if people believed with all their soul, a human could become a god.

  • What the hell is dead blood? How can blood be dead? The only way I can see blood being "dead" is when it's outside the body,in which case it(usually)dries pretty quickly once exposed to air. So how exactly can the hunters poison vampires with it?
    • If it's similar to some vampire lore and Interview with the Vampire it's the blood of a dead individual. It's mentioned a few times in the Anne Rice novels that that's the reason vampires don't just rob blood banks, there is no way of knowing if the donor died at sometime between when the blood was collected and when it was used. It's possible that blood only remains alive for a set period of time outside the body, magic is funny that way but unless new information is revealed I would stick with the assumption that they meant the Blood of a Dead Man and that's been shortened to Dead Blood.

  • In 9X3, Dean comments re: Castiel having sex with April, "Our little Cass, he gave it up to a Reaper!" Except, Cass *was* married briefly in season 7 (whatever became of the woman is left unexplained); did Castiel ever specifically tell Dean off-screen that the marriage was never consummated, or what?
    • Considering they met when Cas was a naked, dazed amnesiac with barely any demonstrated sex drive, they might have found it weird to try that out.

  • How many angel vessels *are* there? In 5X1, Lucifer (granted, he's a liar) informs his prospective vessel that there are "very few people" like him—but now in S9, angels are finding vessels left and right, often in groups such as choirs or Bible studies, and somehow every member of these groups is eligible. We do know from 9X3 that some people are absolutely not fit to be vessels, and will explode violently if they try; Bartholomew's nonchalant response suggests that this isn't unusual enough to warrant more than a shrug. The fact that Castiel had to use Claire and not Amelia Novak in 4X20 is explained to be due to the fact that Claire inherited Jimmy's potential, so the implication is that if he had used Amelia it would not have ended well for her either. Is the probability that any particular human is eligible to be a vessel simply subject to whatever serves the story best?
    • While yes there are as many angel vessels as the plot demands Lucifer is a special case. Like Micheal and Raphael he has a very specific vessel. That's why his vessel was slowly dying, it couldn't handle the strain of an Arch Angel but a standard angel would likely have been just fine for as long as he wanted. There are probably lots of possible vessels, maybe even a 50/50 ratio. It's clearly high enough that the angels are willing to adopt a try and see method and low enough that when one pops they shrug and try again.

  • Why doesn't Abaddon know where the MoL Bunker is? She was right there when Larry gave Sam the coordinates! At some point after killing Larry and taking Sam hostage, wouldn't she take the coordinates from Sam and find out where the Bunker (that she was planning to go to) is? And even if she didn't (for some dumb reason), why isn't she trying to pry the Bunker's location from Sam and Dean—she must have figured out that they have been to the Bunker while she was incapacitated, since they got both the location and the key. Sure, she's got her sights set on conquering Hell now, but surely all the objects of mass-destruction and tons of secret occult information stored there would help her in that? She heard Larry say how incredibly useful they'd be to her in causing the chaos she loves so much. Did that bullet to the brain scramble her mind or something?
    • Aaand now Gadreel has turned against the Winchesters and he knows full-well where the bunker is. Which means Metatron can find out where the bunker is from him. But they're apparently not doing anything about it. Wow.
      • He killed the prophet and without a prophet to read the tablets Metatron and Gadreel just aren't concerned about the Winchesters. At all. It's been established in the past that Crowley is just about the only supernatural being that actually respects the brothers. It helps that as far as we can tell Metatron was so far off the grid he didn't know about the Apocalypse and Gadreel's been out of commission as well. So they both have no real idea who they are screwing with.

  • At the end of Swan Song, Chuck aka God states family is what it is all about. But coming from him isn't that a load of BS? For starters, God abandoned his own children the angels and his treatment of his other "children" the Leviathans is not much better. Michael is forced to choose between his father and Lucifer. Apparently good is less important than family, but Lucifer was a monster who wanted to destroy everything that were not angels. Michael at worse allowed humans to exist because it is what his father God wanted. His other options were to vaguely carry on with the world letting humans suffer and Lucifer rotting in a cage or trying to make paradise and doing what his father wanted. What was the other choice? Side with Lucifer and watch all of creation be turned into hell? And if the whole thing was a test fro Sam and Dean was Lucifer correct? God made Lucifer the devil for the sole purpose of proving humans were superior to angels? Is God then just a big hypocrite and for all the talk of family BS and more like a child favoring one set of toys over another?

  • In season 9 how isn't Sam aware that he's being possessed? Jimmy described it as being chained to a comet and Sam has been possessed by an angel before. I know Gadreel wasn't in control most of the time and wiped Sam's memories from when he was in control, but wouldn't Sam notice the 'chained-to-a-comet-ness'?
    • Presumably Cas was making no effort to conceal his presence from Jimmy.

  • In 9X10, Cass and Dean decide to recruit Crowley to help cast the angel out of Sam. Why don't they just try the sigil from 9X09 again, and guard it this time to ensure that nobody tampers with it?

  • Was the Colt ever explicitly destroyed? S 5 E 10 'Abandon All Hope' seems to be the last episode it was seen in and Castiel failed to retrieve it but since then at least four years have gone by in universe and I doubt Leviathan and Demon Knights round out the the five things the Colt can't kill.

  • How is Dean in such good shape? I don't think we ever see him work out, his diet is very high on sweets and fatty foods, he drinks a lot, and he spends most of his time sitting in a car. The guy should have a lot more blubber than muscle.
    • Part of it is probably just good genes. I know people who live that life style and stay in halfway decent shape into about their thirties. Dean is only (as of this writing) 35 in Earth years, it is difficult to impossible to know if time flows differently in Purgatory, it's flat out stated that Hell is much faster but there doesn't seem to be any change for it. Also there are probably a ton of adventures the boys go on that we don't see, just standard find ghost, find bones, burn bones. Dean and Sam probably get a lot more running around than we see because a lot of their adventures are fairly mundane. They also probably drive less than it seems. Seattle, Washington and Miami Florida (chosen for being on completely opposite sides of the country and pretty close to as far apart as you can get in America) are "only" 52 hours apart assuming you're driving the speed limit. It's unlikely that they are always forced to make that trek, they mostly seem to stick around in middle America likely within ten or so hours and they probably stay in each town until the next job comes up giving plenty of time for exercise which again aside from fan service for the ladies they wouldn't show because again it's boring. They certainly never seem to be more than a few hours away from Bobby's place. To use a real life example pro wrestlers in the 90s were routinely driving around the country, drinking and doing all sorts of drugs if the stories are true and most of them were still in better shape than Dean.
    • This tropette was actually more worried about Sam's diet than Dean's—think about it, even though neither of them often "works out" (as in deliberately goes to a gym with the express purpose of burning fat/building muscle), many of their activities do require high levels of physical exertion. Even a basic "salt-and-burn" task involves digging some pretty deep pits, and while we usually dissolve from breaking the ground to finding the body, in reality they're probably spending hours at it. And of course, running for your life, sometimes while carrying the victim of the week over your shoulder, is pretty taxing energy-wise as well. Throw in the fact that both Sam and Dean are well above six feet tall, and they *should* be consuming probably in the ballpark of 4,000 calories per day. That Dean eats this much is perfectly believable... but Sam? Salads, bananas, and organic smoothies just aren't going to cut it.
      • They do do some pretty physically strenuous stuff, but it usually seems like they have a day or two where they dig graves or get into fights, followed by several days of little to no physical activity, which is just about the worst way to stay in shape.
      • While he's older than I am that worked pretty well for me as a Marine. They probably get a decent work out every couple of days though.
    • Sam, at least, is shown working out in recent seasons when not on hunts, and even eating real food other than salad. While Sam doesn't drink like Dean does, he does also go through a decent amount of beer, so probably gets some calories/carbs there as well. Dean is the poster boy for unhealthy living aside from exercise he gets from hunts, but seems to have lucked into some great genes. Even apart from his greasy food habit, he's suggested to be a full-on alcoholic at more stressful points in the series and you'd think you'd see some ramifications from that as well.
    • On a related note, rumour has it that Jensen Ackles actually requested fewer "Dean chows down on burgers" scenes, as in real life, he can't eat like Dean does and stay in shape!
      • Jensen just doesn't want to. Micheal Phelps (Olympic Swimmer) eats more for breakfast than most of us eat all day and is better shape than Jensen. I know they don't work the same schedule or profession but I have a hard time believing that even with multiple takes that Jensen can't handle eating an extra burger or two a week. It's not like he's eating in every scene nor do they film every day.

  • What is the deal with Sam and Dean's break-up, so to speak, in season 9? It's not believable, and it's just kind of weird. Sam says he wouldn't bring Dean back if Dean had almost died. Is this supposed to be suspiciously out of character, or are we supposed to buy it? What changed about Sam that he wouldn't bring Dean back to life? And what's up with the whole "we can hunt together or we can be brothers, not both" ultimatum? None of it seems to have had any logical build up that led to it, other than Sam wanting to die after the trials. This show has a bad habit of dropping things and never addressing them again, and I'm worried that this is going to be one of those things, rather than a RoboSam case, where there turns out to be an explanation.
    • I actually don't think Sam's claim that he wouldn't bring Dean back is out of character—given the *exact* same circumstances. Sam is not saying he doesn't love Dean, or that he wouldn't want to save him (although that is what Dean is hearing, thus generating a lot of tension). Sam is saying that he would not *violate Dean's will* even in order to save his life, but where Dean wants to live, Sam would absolutely fight for that; this is evidenced by both "Thinman" and "Captives," in each of which Sam saves Dean's butt from the week's bad guys. Sam also doesn't literally mean he doesn't want to be brothers—he means he doesn't want to keep playing the "brother" card Dean always has to justify poorly strategized, morally dubious, or dangerous actions "because we're family."
      • But Sam did want to live, in both Sacrifice and I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here. In both cases, he made a clear and conscious decision to keep living. In the latter case he didn't know exactly what he was agreeing to, but he did know that Gadreel was offering him a chance to stay alive and he took it of his own free will. Any attempt at claiming he was ready to die before Dean intervened is just him retroactively changing the story to push all the blame on Dean, because at any point he could have simply said "No" and carried on dying.
      • He freely chose life, that much is true (which invalidates the argument some have made that Sam was suicidal and thus in no mental condition to make what was essentially a medical decision on his own behalf). But he thought he was choosing an unspecified plan that Dean himself offered, and he never in a million years would have thought Dean would conspire to violate a well-understood, long-standing desire on Sam's part not to be possessed by any angel (especially after the trauma with Lucifer), especially without telling Sam that's what the plan would entail. Sam trusted Dean and Dean betrayed that trust. I don't think Sam is blaming Dean for talking him out of finishing up the trials, I think he brought that up as evidence for his case that Dean's motivation here isn't to save Sam so Sam can have a life worth living—it's so Dean can have Sam. Were it not for the Gadreel fiasco, I don't think Sam would harbor any resentment at all for Dean's speech in the church at the end of s8.
      • But Dean made this decision knowing full well it could destroy his relationship with Sam. And it did -Sam and Dean are absolutely miserable together now. He even initially left to work on his own once Sam found out about it. That's why I don't buy that Dean acted out of his own interests -He's probably even less happy with the current situation than Sam is. He just places a higher priority on Sam's life than on Sam's or his own happiness. His decision was also coming on the heels of their talk in Sacrifice, where Dean had to reassure Sam that he came above all else. It's a fine line Dean has to walk between loving San too much or not enough, and whenever he guesses wrong, Sam flips out. Also not helping Sam's case is that he can't seem to make up his mind what he's upset about -In "First Born" it's getting Kevin killed, in, in "Sharp Teeth" it's not being able to trust Dean, in "The Purge" it's that he was ready to die- which makes him come across as being angry for the sake of being angry, and the fact that in hindsight Dean's decision was objectively correct. Had he not dealt with Gad, Kevin might be alive (Metatron ordered his death independently of the deal, Sam's possession gave them a window to try, but he might have found one anyway since Kevin wasn't staying in the bunker 24/7) but Sam, Cas, and Charlie would be dead, their spirits would be trapped in the veil like Kevin's is, and Dean would probably either be dead or possessed by Abbadon, none of which Sam has acknowledged.
      • It's unreasonable that Sam should be angry about more than one aspect of Dean getting him possessed by an unknown entity and this getting a friend of his killed? He has to pick one thing he didn't like about it and stick to it so it doesn't look like he's seesawing on his position? How about he was ready to accept death and move on but then his trust in Dean was betrayed (by Gadreel pretending to be Dean to get Sam to say yes and also by Dean agreeing to this without consulting Sam and helping Gadreel keep it secret from Sam so he couldn't make an informed choice on it) just when he thought that they had finally cleared the air between them and they were finally on even footing again? To Sam, that doesn't reflect well on Dean—it means Dean doesn't respect or value his choices as a person when they conflict with Dean's wants, that Dean refuses to learn that maybe they should stop working with shifty monsters he knows nothing about and has no reason to trust, and that Dean also refuses to stop screwing with the natural order and risking another Apocalypse by not letting Sam die when it's his time to go. In Sam's opinion, all of that is really, really shitty. Regardless of whether or not it would've happened anyway, Dean's decision to have Sam possessed also got Kevin killed by something using Sam's body. In Sam's opinion, that's also really, really shitty. It's also kind of shitty to say that Dean's man-pain matters more than Sam's in this situation, when Dean was one of the ones who did this to him. Dean's unhappiness that his brother is mad at him shouldn't exonerate him because he hasn't even apologized and has instead made it clear that he doesn't regret it and would, in fact, do it again ("The Purge"). As for what would have happened if Dean hadn't chosen that route, Sam, Cass, and Charlie's spirits might not have been stuck in the Veil since Charlie's soul apparently went to Heaven in "Slumber Party" and that happened after Sam and Castiel would've died, so they probably would've also gone to Heaven; the gates of Heaven were only closed later. Kevin may or may not have been killed by Metatron, since Kevin would've been in the bunker and Metatron had no idea where it was, so he wouldn't be able to get to him even if he wanted to. As for Dean, it depends on what he would've done if Sam died and if he couldn't save Cass or Charlie (assuming he was around for those), but if he killed himself, again, he probably would've gone on to Heaven. If he stuck around long enough for Abaddon to get her claws on him and he couldn't get away, yeah, he probably would've gotten possessed and been going through a Fate Worse than Death while Abaddon used him to get into the bunker, kill Crowley, and lay claim to all the Men of Letters' knowledge and artifacts for herself and the forces of Hell. That probably wouldn't have gone well. It's hard to weigh whether Gadreel possessing Sam was a good thing in the long run or not in a wider sense because we can only speculate, but so far in the show it's being painted as a bad thing that Dean did to Sam with the end-result of an innocent casualty and also Sam's trust in Dean being broken. (Despite this huge rant, this troper isn't really sure what her personal view on it is—she's seen both Dean stans and Sam stans' stance on it. To be honest, she doesn't really care because she's over the brother drama and only cares about the demon storyline anymore, but the tons of hate Sam is getting made her want to try her hand at defending him since he used to be her favorite character. Old loyalties, you know.)
      • As can be seen above, this has been a very divisive issue in the fandom, but to answer the actual question, there does not appear to be any supernatural influence on Sam, and he was just that pissed. Further along into the season, and also suggested by actor Jared Padalecki, it's becoming apparent that Sam's harsh words were more him lashing out in the moment, and do not reflect his true feelings towards Dean. Many have taken issue with what Sam has said, but in fairness, he was reeling from quite a bit at the time. As the poster above mentioned, he was simultaneously coping with the fact that he had been possessed for months, that the person he trusts and loves more than anyone else tricked him into it and lied to him for months, that someone else he was close to died by his own hand, and the usual Winchester should-be-dead survivor guilt. Additionally, while the viewer knows how badly Dean felt about doing all that, Sam has seen little of that- indeed, Sam's harshest speech, in The Purge, came after Dean doubled down and said he did the right thing and would do it again, not acknowledging the parts of it that caused Sam pain- though in fairness to Dean, it seems like the Mo C was affecting him by then. Even taking out Sam's desire or non-desire to die, which the writers have admittedly not been consistent on, it's reasonable to assert that Sam would have preferred to die than be possessed by an unknown entity for an undetermined period of time. Finally, it's important to remember Sam's history here- his whole life, supernatural forces have made Sam their plaything. He finally thought he had been freed of all that as of "Sacrifice," only to discover that Dean, of all people, put him at the mercy of yet another supernatural force instead of just letting him go on in peace. This conflict is actually being handled better than others in this show (like, say, S8...), as each brother has a pretty valid standpoint. We understand why Dean would go this extreme to save Sam. We can also understand why Sam would never be okay with it, even if not everyone likes his reaction to it.
      • As for saving Cas, Charlie, etc, one good point I've seen is that if Sam were an object, it would be fair to debate whether or not the possession was objectively a good thing. Since Sam is a person, he really should have had some self-determination over his body and how it was used.
      • The thing with Charlie was a continuity error or her just being mistaken. Kevin's dialogue makes it clear that no soul has entered Heaven since the angels fell.
    Kevin: I couldn't. I can't. No one can. Heaven's closed for business. Everyone who's died since the angels fell are just stuck inside the veil, waiting. And it's bad in here. Like DMV-line-times-infinity bad.
    • Ah, Metatron probably thought that Charlie was the only one worthy of being in Heaven with him and let her and her alone into Heaven. (I wrote that as a joke, but the scary thing is that the writers would probably agree.) Yeah, you're right—unless something had happened to save them all, they'd all be stuck in Limbo.
    • Additionally, while the MOC doesn't seem to affect Sam at all, it certainly affects Dean, and that affects how Sam reacts to him. As mentioned previously, Dean did feel quite guilty over the possession, trickery, and deception- until he got the MOC. Even when Sam was initially de-possessed (pre-MOC) Dean fully expected Sam to be pissed as hell in the aftermath, and felt so guilty and screwed up about everything that had happened that he left to hunt alone. The problem is, Sam and Dean didn't really discuss the possession at all until after post-MOC, and then Dean's attitude started shifting and he started doubling down, saying that they should just move on and forget about it (Sharp Teeth), that he did the right thing and he'd do it again (The Purge), and that he basically didn't know what was up with Sam these days (Thinman). These responses are all in marked contrast to the first half of the season (to be clear, I'm not attempting a Dean bash here, simply describing how the MOC has affected his attitude and character- it is a dark arc, after all). Jensen Ackles has since said that Dean has become a much more black and white thinker because of the MOC- in his current state of mind, all he can reason is that Sam's alive and that's good, therefore the possession was good. Dean's failure to acknowledge (to Sam, who, we must remember, didn't see all of Dean's guilt earlier in the season) the crappier parts of what he did (or, seemingly to Sam, that Sam has a right to be upset at all) is almost guaranteed to be maddening to Sam, since there were bad things around the possession, and to him, Dean is just refusing to admit it. It didn't help at the time that Sam was barely aware of the MOC (and apparently too deep in his own issues at that point to look into it), certainly didn't know how it was affecting Dean, and couldn't put Dean's approach to their argument in that context. But since the MOC isolates the person wearing it, Sam's words did inadvertently make things a whole lot worse for Dean, emotionally distanced him, made him less inclined to even try to connect to Sam, and fed further into their rift.

  • In the episode "In The Beginning" why does Dean start asking young!John about smelling Slufer and cold spots? John wouldn't become a hunter or even find out about the supernatural until Mary's death. This just doesn't make sense to me.
    • I don't remember the context, but this is a routine question. They ask pretty much everyone that if they're worried there's been a haunting (cold spots) or possession (sulfur smell). You don't have to be a hunter to smell sulfur or feel cold.
    • OP here. That's true but Dean wasn't on a case. He'd just realized that he'd been sent back in time by an Angel and the young guy next to him might be his father. Additionally in this case Dean's questions sound like he's trying to verify that this John is his father but as John was not yet a hunter,Dean's questions don't really make sense. He should be well aware of exactly when his father started hunting but here it comes off like Dean thought that John randomly had knowledge of the supernatural before Yellow eyes/Azazel killed Mary. That is why I find this confusing.
    • At what point did Dean find out that his father wasn't a long time Hunter? It's been revealed now that he wasn't involved at all until Azazel killed Mary but I don't think Dean knew. He was five when that happened so he might not remember much before that. He refers to monster hunting as the Family Business which implies that he thought it was going on longer than just his father. While it turns out that John was apparently just that damn good his combination of know how and contacts suggested that he didn't piece this together on his own. It's easy to think that Dean believed he came from a long line of monster killers. Which he did, just not on his fathers side. His father's side was apparently a long line of nerds.
    • Re: the sulfur and cold spots, Dean asked those questions because Cas didn't say why he sent Dean back. So in a way, it is a case. He's pretty much asking the questions he'd normally ask of civilians to try and gauge what he's dealing with here, demons and ghosts being the usual suspects. He does try and deliberately frame the questions so they don't sound crazy. As for when Dean found out how long his dad had been hunting, it's established in S1 episode "Home" that he found out the truth from Missouri Moseley (she tells Sam and Dean this). John went digging because he suspected something strange about the fire, and she told him about the supernatural.
  • Abbadon is mining souls to create demons? Flat "What.". We know that creating demons takes decades at the least, centuries is probably more realistic. Time passes much more quickly in Hell and Dean spent I believe 60 years in Hell during his trip and didn't come back with any powers. Without the time lapse that Hell provides trying to create demons on Earth is clearly far to time consuming to be practical by any estimation. If her supposed reasoning wasn't that she didn't want to wait for the rank and file demon to pick a side it would be a fun side project but as it stands it's a little like going into your enemy's house with a handful of seeds while cackling that that one day the tree will destroy his fortress.
    • Not only that but how and why do demons suddenly have the power to harvest souls that (I'm assuming, since they were all said to be nice people beforehand) were not destined for Hell, had not made any deals, and thus the demons had no claim to them? Why haven't demons been using that way all along to turn the whole human race into a massive army of about eight billion demons (plus however many pre-existing demons are around)? Why bother with crossroad deals at all?
      • This is given a Hand Wave earlier. Abbadon calls out Crowley on being a bitch with his deals and that demons should simply take what they want. Abbadon (and Cain) throw a fair amount of kinks into the established mythos however that are difficult to work around.
      • We know that a soul's time of reaping pertains to the Natural Order, and Abaddon, being a bloodthirsty warrior instead of a carefully-thinking leader, is reckless and likely doesn't care about the consequences of her actions. Plus, every leader of Hell in the series thus far has followed the rules, so those rules may come from very high up. However, as of right now, the cosmic order is completely out of whack, so there aren't many entities left who could do anything about her. Death seems to be AWOL, Metatron is setting himself up to be Chuck 2.0, and the archangels are all indisposed. And as for the torturing thing, Abaddon may have other methods of torture that are more effective, or maybe she has a quicker method that has the downside of producing weaker demons. That would explain the need for multiple factories; compensating for their weaker power with raw numbers. At any rate, here's something that could apply to both points: Aside from Crowley, Hell's culture has always been quite resistant to change. Abaddon's methods, ironically in a manner similar to Crowley's, may have been rejected for being too reckless and extreme.
  • So, the sigil for the Knights of Hell is "pre-Enochian." Except Enochian is the language of angels, and there's no indication that it was ever predated by another angelic language. The angels themselves predate the Earth, and thus the human race, and thus the demon race. By all rights, Enochian should be the oldest language on Earth. So why are the Knights using a dead language far older than they are, how did they find out about it, and what beings did this language even belong to—leviathan? Whatever God and Death are?
    • Maybe it is an older language and Lucifer taught it to Cain who taught it to the other Knights.
    • It could be she meant "pre-Enochian" not with respect to the Enochian language, but rather the time period before Enoch, the ancestor of Noah after whom the Enochian language is named. She could've said antediluvian and meant roughly the same thing, but since this tropette doubts the show is currently interested in working the Flood into its mythos, they avoided a word that would've called attention to it.
  • Why were the soulless people harming themselves, writing on the walls with their own blood, and killing themselves? That goes against everything Soulless Sam established about his increased sense of self-preservation. For that matter, why were they so easily angered when they were supposed to be emotionless?
    • Sam suggests that each person reacts differently to being soulless and it seems to be true. In his case he was driven and willing to take any risk. Maybe these people had something about them that was truly screwed up and they felt they needed to be punished?
  • The First Blade. Did Crowley have so much faith in the Winchesters ability to overcome Lucifer and Raphael that he declined to mention the First Blade because he wanted to have an ace in the hole in case Abbadon came back from oblivion? It's like the leviathan and Purgatory all over again where one has to wonder why Cas and Crowley didn't try THAT to stop the end of the world. Just how many super awesome we should have used this earlier weapons are there?
    • First of all, we don't know if the First Blade could kill a leviathan or an archangel. It wasn't said to be a kill-anything blade.
      • Unless it's specifically a kill Demon Knights blade and nothing else needs fear it I would have put it on the list of things to try. Same as I would have put open Purgatory on the list. They didn't have time for that and it might not have worked but that's not a reason not to try.
    • In S5, it appeared that Crowley earnestly believed the Colt would kill Lucifer and it didn't—after that, he probably figured that there was no way the Winchesters would trust him again with another plan to use a special weapon to kill the devil. Note how he waited until Dean was alone—at a very low point and quite vulnerable—before approaching him with the proposal to try the First Blade. Alternatively, maybe Crowley just didn't have the knowledge/resources to track down the Blade in previous seasons.

  • So did Sam and Dean take an afternoon off from the worst estrangement they've ever had to hit the mall and buy spiffy new suits before "Captives?"

  • Why does the hitherto abandoned and vacant MOL bunker have electricity and water? The boys are obviously living rent free, but did they get the utilities hooked up?
    • Considering Dean's shock at finding that they have those utilities set up I think it's clearly some kind of magic.
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