History Headscratchers / Supernatural

23rd Aug '16 6:22:28 PM Christy
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* It's very possible I missed something but at the end of "Criss Angel Is A Douche bag" why does Vernon end his friendship with Jay? I understand he was upset over Charlie's death but Charlie was using black magic to kill people! Yet Vernon is upset with Jay for stopping a murderer but he's fine with Charlie killing people if he gets immortality out of it?

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* It's very possible I missed something but at the end of "Criss Angel Is A Douche bag" why does Vernon end his friendship with Jay? I understand he was upset over Charlie's death but Charlie was using black magic to kill people! Yet Vernon is upset with Jay for stopping a murderer but he's fine with Charlie killing people if he gets immortality out of it?it?

*Two questions about the episode "Lucifer Rising". 1. Who changed the voicemail Dean left for Sam? 2. If Azazel's real goal was to find Lucifer's vessel and he only got the order in the 70s then who or what are the other generations of special kids he mentioned in the season 2 finale?
22nd Aug '16 10:58:43 PM Christy
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* What are reapers? Originally they seemed to be a distinct species/race presumably descended from Death himself who at the time was touted as God's equal. At least he claimed he would reap God when the time came and that neither of them could remember who was eldest. Amara makes no mention of a third and in fact much of her conversations about God seem to confirm that God created the Universe essentially because he was lonely. Later Reapers were revealed to be a job type for angels, similar to a Cupid. Now we've got Billie who doesn't seem to be just another angel who stepped up. For starters at this point an angel threatening Sam and Dean would need a bit of swagger to not simply get told off by Cas but when the S10 finale hits she comes through with a couple hundred thousand souls that apparently Cas didn't have access to and God seemed to not even know about. [[spoiler: In God's defense he was at death's door and possibly not thinking clearly.]]

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* What are reapers? Originally they seemed to be a distinct species/race presumably descended from Death himself who at the time was touted as God's equal. At least he claimed he would reap God when the time came and that neither of them could remember who was eldest. Amara makes no mention of a third and in fact much of her conversations about God seem to confirm that God created the Universe essentially because he was lonely. Later Reapers were revealed to be a job type for angels, similar to a Cupid. Now we've got Billie who doesn't seem to be just another angel who stepped up. For starters at this point an angel threatening Sam and Dean would need a bit of swagger to not simply get told off by Cas but when the S10 finale hits she comes through with a couple hundred thousand souls that apparently Cas didn't have access to and God seemed to not even know about. [[spoiler: In God's defense he was at death's door and possibly not thinking clearly.]]]]

* It's very possible I missed something but at the end of "Criss Angel Is A Douche bag" why does Vernon end his friendship with Jay? I understand he was upset over Charlie's death but Charlie was using black magic to kill people! Yet Vernon is upset with Jay for stopping a murderer but he's fine with Charlie killing people if he gets immortality out of it?
12th Aug '16 2:05:39 PM Morgenthaler
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** Because Dean Winchester is just ''that'' BadAss.
** ...No. I'm with the first guy -- he was in hell longer than he'd been alive. He'd pretty much consider hell to be his "home", and one would think have reacted a wee bit more enthusiastically in the premier when he got out of his grave. And I don't care how BadAss a character is, audiences and (hopefully) writers recognizes that hell is a '' pretty bad'' place to be stuck, and if you send a character there you cannot have them BadAss their way out of it.

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** Because Dean Winchester is just ''that'' BadAss.
badass.
** ...No. I'm with the first guy -- he was in hell longer than he'd been alive. He'd pretty much consider hell to be his "home", and one would think have reacted a wee bit more enthusiastically in the premier when he got out of his grave. And I don't care how BadAss badass a character is, audiences and (hopefully) writers recognizes that hell is a '' pretty bad'' place to be stuck, and if you send a character there you cannot have them BadAss badass their way out of it.
15th Jul '16 12:08:41 AM ChrisDen
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* "Season 7, Time for a Wedding!" ...is no one else bothered by the fact that Becky ''[[DoubleStandardRapeFemaleOnMale attempted to rape Sam?]]'' Sure, she specifically said that she hadn't raped him yet, which given the framing was probably an attempt to remove the UnfortunateImplications, but...wow. Really? Dean kills a kitsune on the somewhat-justified belief that she might kill again, but doesn't even lecture a woman who mind-raped and attempted to physically violate his brother? Ugh. I...for that matter, why would Becky even do that? She didn't seem all that evil before. Suddenly, willing to subject someone she supposedly admires to a lifetime of rape! Just...what? And as for whatever bullshit that demon guy told her...look, drugging someone and sleeping with them without their (non-mind-controlled) consent is rape whether they love you deep down or not. I knew the trope existed. I even knew it was widespread, but this? I didn't quite expect this.

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* "Season 7, Time for a Wedding!" ...is no one else bothered by the fact that Becky ''[[DoubleStandardRapeFemaleOnMale attempted to rape Sam?]]'' Sure, she specifically said that she hadn't raped him yet, which given the framing was probably an attempt to remove the UnfortunateImplications, but...wow. Really? Dean kills a kitsune on the somewhat-justified belief that she might kill again, but doesn't even lecture a woman who mind-raped and attempted to physically violate his brother? Ugh. I... for that matter, why would Becky even do that? She didn't seem all that evil before. Suddenly, willing to subject someone she supposedly admires to a lifetime of rape! Just...what? And as for whatever bullshit that demon guy told her...look, drugging someone and sleeping with them without their (non-mind-controlled) consent is rape whether they love you deep down or not. I knew the trope existed. I even knew it was widespread, but this? I didn't quite expect this.



* Okay, so Chuck writes the Supernatural books, and until he meets the Winchesters, has absolutely no idea that they are anything but products of his own imagination. How is this possible? Many--Hell,most--of the Brothers hunts are bound to get national coverage, that's generally the way it goes with serial killers, yet Chuck never notices that this gruesome series of murders in Anytown USA bears an uncanny resemblance to one of his books? This is especially true for the murders that turn out to be to be caused by human beings (Family Remains and The Benders), there's no way a Serial murdering Redneck family in the backwoods of Minnesota isn't going to be plastered over every news channel for at least a month.

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* Okay, so Chuck writes the Supernatural books, and until he meets the Winchesters, has absolutely no idea that they are anything but products of his own imagination. How is this possible? Many--Hell,most--of Many--hell, most--of the Brothers brothers' hunts are bound to get national coverage, that's generally the way it goes with serial killers, yet Chuck never notices that this gruesome series of murders in Anytown USA bears an uncanny resemblance to one of his books? This is especially true for the murders that turn out to be to be caused by human beings (Family Remains and The Benders), there's no way a Serial murdering Redneck family in the backwoods of Minnesota isn't going to be plastered over every news channel for at least a month.



*** You're vastly over estimating their expenses. Two good laptops as of Season 9 (which is Circa 2013) would run you around a grand, the suits maybe five hundred bucks, the phones are most likely prepaid a hundred or so a piece. Hustling that much money in a week if you're good at pool is implausible but far from impossible. The arsenal isn't that expensive they mostly use melee weapons, you can get cuffs at Toys R' Us for less than ten bucks and carve the devil's trap in. Remember it's the magic holding the demon, most likely a snap on bracelet with a devil's trap written in crayon would work just fine aside from how silly it would look. Most of these things they could obtain over a few months of hard work, only they've been at this for (as of season 9) nine years as a team and most of these items would last that long. And Dean is implied to have been working with his father until he disappeared right before season one prompting him to find Sam. They probably sleep in the car a lot even if we never see it. They also probably in many ways do less driving than we actually think. Everyday most of us commute back and forth Sam and Dean drive across country. . .then sit in place probably on average for days or weeks at a time with little to no driving.

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*** You're vastly over estimating their expenses. Two good laptops as of Season 9 (which is Circa 2013) would run you around a grand, the suits maybe five hundred bucks, the phones are most likely prepaid a hundred or so a piece. Hustling that much money in a week if you're good at pool is implausible but far from impossible. The arsenal isn't that expensive they mostly use melee weapons, you can get cuffs at Toys R' Us for less than ten bucks and carve the devil's trap in. Remember it's the magic holding the demon, most likely a snap on bracelet with a devil's trap written in crayon would work just fine aside from how silly it would look. Most of these things they could obtain over a few months of hard work, only they've been at this for (as of season 9) nine years as a team and most of these items would last that long. And Dean is implied to have been working with his father until he disappeared right before season one prompting him to find Sam. They probably sleep in the car a lot even if we never see it. They also probably in many ways do less driving than we actually think. Everyday most of us commute back and forth Sam and Dean drive across country. . . then sit in place probably on average for days or weeks at a time with little to no driving.



*** We Are going by American God Logic Because the creators cite it as an inspiration

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*** We Are are going by American God Logic Because the creators cite it as an inspiration inspiration.



* The fact that we, considering the state of Raphael's Vessel in "Free to Be You and Me", aren't going to meet Michael. I am sure he would have been awesome.

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* The fact that we, considering the state of Raphael's Vessel vessel in "Free to Be You and Me", aren't going to meet Michael. I am sure he would have been awesome.



* What is the deal with Demon eyes, White eyed demons are supposed to be the strongest right? What about Abaddon, she's the oldest after Lilith, if any demon should have White eyes it should be she.

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* What is the deal with Demon eyes, White white eyed demons are supposed to be the strongest right? What about Abaddon, she's the oldest after Lilith, if any demon should have White eyes it should be she.



* So...Lilith's death was the final seal. What, exactly, was she going to do if the Winchesters got in a car accident or struck by lightning or something? Commit suicide to pop the last seal?

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* So... Lilith's death was the final seal. What, exactly, was she going to do if the Winchesters got in a car accident or struck by lightning or something? Commit suicide to pop the last seal?



** I really don't understand any of the above logic. First off, all it takes is one person to capture a monster and take it to a TV station for the secret to be out. They could do this for a number of reasons from fame, money, to trying to help the general public. Why would any hunter want the world to be in silence in the first place? All they would be doing is adding more soldiers and preventing people from easily dying. Them not telling would be akin to knowing what causes a fatal disease and not telling anyone about it but running around with multiple cures and healing people individually. People might freak out at first but I'm sure most people would be happy knowing there was an afterlife and they`d be able to see their dead loved ones. The truth is, the only reason they general public doesn't know is to keep the main characters with work to do. Essentially it would ruin the show, not the show's world.
** OP here - there are a lot of good reasons here for why hunters might not go out of their way to educate the general public about the supernatural world, but the question is, why does the general public not know regardless? I came up with this question after watching the episode "It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester" and absentmindedly reading up on the real-life history of Samhain, where I read that in medieval Ireland, people would make a habit of carrying bars of iron and salt on that day in order to ward off evil spirits. Since, unlike in real life, evil spirits and supernatural creatures are a very serious threat to people, why would superstitions like that have died out, to the point where only the hunters know about them?

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** I really don't understand any of the above logic. First off, all it takes is one person to capture a monster and take it to a TV station for the secret to be out. They could do this for a number of reasons from fame, money, to trying to help the general public. Why would any hunter want the world to be in silence in the first place? All they would be doing is adding more soldiers and preventing people from easily dying. Them not telling would be akin to knowing what causes a fatal disease and not telling anyone about it but running around with multiple cures and healing people individually. People might freak out at first but I'm sure most people would be happy knowing there was an afterlife and they`d they'd be able to see their dead loved ones. The truth is, the only reason they general public doesn't know is to keep the main characters with work to do. Essentially it would ruin the show, not the show's world.
** OP here - -- there are a lot of good reasons here for why hunters might not go out of their way to educate the general public about the supernatural world, but the question is, why does the general public not know regardless? I came up with this question after watching the episode "It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester" and absentmindedly reading up on the real-life history of Samhain, where I read that in medieval Ireland, people would make a habit of carrying bars of iron and salt on that day in order to ward off evil spirits. Since, unlike in real life, evil spirits and supernatural creatures are a very serious threat to people, why would superstitions like that have died out, to the point where only the hunters know about them?



* Where is Michael and Adam in the Cage? When we see the cage in season 11 only Lucifer is in it.

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* Where is are Michael and Adam in the Cage? When we see the cage in season 11 only Lucifer is in it.



* Whatever happened to the three other horsemen rings? I know from an out of universe perspective the explanation is simply that there was never an interesting time to reintroduce them. However, you basically have three of the most powerful artefacts from the show, conveniently pocket sized, with no established long term harm, and they can be worn by a human character. Given how powerful Dean became when wearing Death's ring (if he still had the ring he could just walk up invisibly behind someone and kill them with a touch) it definitely seems like they should have come up at some point when facing one of the enemies they don't know how to kill (even if just as something to be dismissed as too dangerous to use).

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* Whatever happened to the three other horsemen rings? I know from an out of universe perspective the explanation is simply that there was never an interesting time to reintroduce them. However, you basically have three of the most powerful artefacts artifacts from the show, conveniently pocket sized, with no established long term harm, and they can be worn by a human character. Given how powerful Dean became when wearing Death's ring (if he still had the ring he could just walk up invisibly behind someone and kill them with a touch) it definitely seems like they should have come up at some point when facing one of the enemies they don't know how to kill (even if just as something to be dismissed as too dangerous to use).
1st Jun '16 2:02:34 AM ApeAccount
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** I think if anything, especially given their apparent reliance on having followers for their power and their number of contradictory creation myths, the Gods featured in the shows are most likely tulpas like in "Hell House". In that episode, a spirit came into existence because enough people believed the story of it. It's the same idea with a god. Though the show's mythology might be based on the idea of a Judao-Christian God having created the universe, if enough people believe in the Norse gods then the Norse gods would come into existence and so would the Hindu gods etc. Of course, since in each of their respective mythologies the gods have histories dating back to the start of creation the gods would all believe themselves to have always existed (even if the tulpas only actually came into existence long after the myths were already formed). This would allow for them to all have different beliefs about the creation of the universe and the end of the universe as part of their own tulpa backstory. This would also explain the obvious power imbalance between THE God and a room full of gods, who (though in their own mythologies may have been able the most powerful beings in the universe) were shown in "Hammer of the Gods" to be less powerful than a single archangel. It also neatly explains why there is lore on how to kill some of the gods even though those gods are apparently very much alive and apparently haven't ever been killed before (in "Hell House" the fact that people believed something would kill a tulpa meant that it would kill a tulpa).
1st Jun '16 1:37:18 AM ApeAccount
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** We now have the confirmed answer for this: [[spoiler: like was basically said above, he's God and he just turned it off.]]
1st Jun '16 1:28:08 AM ApeAccount
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* Presumably once someone becomes a demon, they no longer need their bones or any other item to anchor them to the Earth. However, they're still "linked" to the bones and can be killed by burning the bones, because they will experience any damage that occurs to the bones. However, if the bones were destroyed when they were just a soul in Hell the link may be temporarily "disconnected" and so they wouldn't suffer the damage. As a consequence, if someone is going to become a demon it's actually much better for them to have their bones burned in advance.
1st Jun '16 1:07:42 AM ApeAccount
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*** When Dean arrived, he discovered he was wearing makeup. Given Dean wasn't wearing makeup before he jumped through the window (presumably) this suggests that he hadn't swapped places with his counterpart from this universe. Rather, when he and Sam jumped through the window Jensen and Jared did so at the same time (on the set) and Dean and Sam then took possession of their counterparts' bodies (though managed to keep the key). Presumably, Jared and Jensen were still in there but, like with normal possession, could only watch. Then when Sam and Dean jumped back through the portal to their own universe they left Jared and Jensen's bodies causing Jared and Jensen to remain in their universe with control returning to their bodies.
* In "The French Mistake" if there was no magic, why did the whole phone call by a bowl of blood thing still work? Is that a valid way to save on long distance in Hollywood?
1st Jun '16 12:39:35 AM ApeAccount
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*** I believe the question is whether we agree with the demons. Personally, I don't think so. When you love someone, you sacrifice for them. Most of us just aren't faced with tragedy all around us and don't have the option of sacrifice by demon to fix some of it. I'll also add Samuel to the list who definitely made a deal with the devil (well a demon anyway).
1st Jun '16 12:21:31 AM ApeAccount
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** As a comparison, apparently time in the cage with Lucifer has pretty much shattered Michael's psyche even though presumably being on equal footing in power terms means Lucifer isn't capable of subjecting Michael to constant physical torture in the same way Dean was subjected to it. While it's true he was in the cage for longer than Dean was in Hell, relative to their own lifetimes Dean's was still a lot longer (Michael having existed since before basically everything). Of course, that's also assuming that Hell time really is consistently faster than Earth time which often hasn't been shown with events in Hell sometimes being shown simultaneously to events on Earth and people even talking on the phone between Hell and Earth on occasion. If anything, it would seem to be implied that time may be altered to allow torture to take place more quickly in Hell (so that you can torture a Winchester for decades without everyone having to wait around for decades while it happens) but that regular time in Hell passes as normal. If that's the case then it would suggest that Sam's soul only spent a year in the cage and Michael has only been in the cage a matter of years.
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