History Headscratchers / Supernatural

5th Aug '17 8:17:18 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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** Lucifer and Michael are the oldest brothers, Lucifer is in his Samifer mode, Micheal is in Adam, while not Dean (none of the dramatic irony) still a true vessel, which means both are insanely powerful, only four things are stronger than they are, as for the fight, they were going to go all out, think Goku v Frieza levels of power, both are GenreSavvy enough to not go near each other or stabbyness happens, so they will go for the long range, Micheal will probably call down the strongest Laser death cannon that is smiting he can, Lucifer will probably call on all the demons he can (what Crowley did to Amara) Cas could at his strength wipe out a diner with a hand blast, imagine what two archangels can do (I reckon at least nuke a city on their own with one, also during the fight demons and angels would just simply break the masqurade, and start fighting each other, mosters will notice and either hunker down or use this fight to go "fuck it" and start attacking people in broad daylight, remember most monsters require very specific means to be killed, the implications of the prize fight is that it will cause global chaos by everything supernatural just dropping every pretense of civility due to the world ending.

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** Lucifer and Michael are the oldest brothers, Lucifer is in his Samifer mode, Micheal is in Adam, while not Dean (none of the dramatic irony) still a true vessel, which means both are insanely powerful, only four things are stronger than they are, as for the fight, they were going to go all out, think Goku v Frieza levels of power, both are GenreSavvy savvy enough to not go near each other or stabbyness happens, so they will go for the long range, Micheal will probably call down the strongest Laser death cannon that is smiting he can, Lucifer will probably call on all the demons he can (what Crowley did to Amara) Cas could at his strength wipe out a diner with a hand blast, imagine what two archangels can do (I reckon at least nuke a city on their own with one, also during the fight demons and angels would just simply break the masqurade, and start fighting each other, mosters will notice and either hunker down or use this fight to go "fuck it" and start attacking people in broad daylight, remember most monsters require very specific means to be killed, the implications of the prize fight is that it will cause global chaos by everything supernatural just dropping every pretense of civility due to the world ending.
28th Jul '17 12:19:54 AM SpocktorWho
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** I've been operating under the impression that the blood is "human" so long as the human soul remains in the body. Every time we've seen Castiel use blood magic Jimmy Novak is either alive, or Cas himself is the human. When he used the angel banishment sigil in seasons four and five, Jimmy's soul still occupied the body. The next time he tried to use it was on the Riet Zien in season nine, when Cas himself was human. There's even a line in the third episode of season 6 when Cas first comes back - he needs blood for a spell and grabs Dean's hand; Dean's irritated and demands why he doesn't use his own, and Cas says it won't work because he's not human. At that point, Jimmy was dead and Cas occupied the vessel alone, so the blood could no longer be classified as "human", but strictly angel.
14th Jul '17 12:24:16 PM ExarchofSechrima
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** We've got confirmation. the Men of Letters struck a deal with Crowley where Demons would not kill people normally, but anyone stupid enough to make a deal with them are fair game since they "deserve it" and presumably this extends to killing people as a part of the deal.
12th Jul '17 12:41:16 AM ApeAccount
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* How is Mary able to beat Lucifer back into the spacetime rift in the finale with just normal Enochian brass knuckles? One could give her the fist, maybe even the second hit based on Lucifer being shocked or impressed at her resolve, or even him just being arrogant enough to want to show her how futile it is to fight him, but she hits him unopposed like five times! At literally any point during the fight he could have torn her in half, or just snapped his fingers and annihilated her on a sub-atomic level, as he's done in the past. How does she manage to beat him?!

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* How is Mary able to beat Lucifer back into the spacetime rift in the finale with just normal Enochian brass knuckles? One could give her the fist, maybe even the second hit based on Lucifer being shocked or impressed at her resolve, or even him just being arrogant enough to want to show her how futile it is to fight him, but she hits him unopposed like five times! At literally any point during the fight he could have torn her in half, or just snapped his fingers and annihilated her on a sub-atomic level, as he's done in the past. How does she manage to beat him?!him?!
** The plot seems to bend where the Enochian brass knuckles (or angel-dusters as I prefer to call them) are concerned. That Watt Lady was able to take on Dean and Cas easily in spite of Dean (who shouldn't have been impacted at all) having put up a much better effort against actual monsters and Cas having survived an extended period being hunted by heaven even while completely human. Perhaps they have some sort of magical ability to render any opponent unwilling to use their full strength against you?
1st Jul '17 3:45:48 AM SpocktorWho
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** I actually figured that Cas was a ''better'' vessel than Sam, because Cas's vessel was specifically rebuilt ''by God''. It took 40 million Purgatory souls and a stack of ''Leviathan'' to make it start deteriorating. God made that sucker durable. Also, it seems that Cas's vessel is a special case in that he does own it because basically God personally gave it to him. Jimmy's soul went to Heaven after Lucifer destroyed Cas, so when the vessel was reformed without the soul, its ownership went to Castiel. Even prior to his stint as a human in season 9, he was able to pop in and out of the vessel with no problem - he explicitly stated that he spent a year as a "multi-dimensional wavelength of celestial intent" before season 6, so he must have been out of his vessel during most of the civil war in Heaven. Presumably he could store the vessel in the ether or something and just grab it whenever he needed to visit Sam and Dean.
1st Jul '17 3:34:49 AM SpocktorWho
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** Three things in response to these questions:
*** 1) Anna could see demon's true faces, but there's no indication that ex-angels can immediately recognize each other. When Cas recognizes his Riet Zien brother, the guy just teleported into the house with him, so he ''knows'' he's dealing with an angel. He likely figured out which one through behavior and body language, whereas with April he had no reason to suspect she was supernatural. He also didn't recognize Hael in 9X01 as an angel until she told him she was. The fact that Gadreel was afraid of Cas being around him makes me figure that, while he didn't expect Cas to instantly recognize him as an angel on sight, he was worried that if Cas did realize Sam was possessed, he would, like he did with the Riet Zien, be able to figure out which angel it was after a brief observation, or at least figure out that Gadreel ''wasn't'' Ezekiel, whom Cas seemed to know personally.
*** 2) As to Reapers, I've dealt with that by imagining that reapers are related to angels, like some sort of cousins (the two do have some similar abilities, as would be needed to ferry souls to Heaven), but that angels and reapers generally don't interact with each other, as Cas didn't even bother trying to talk to the reapers in the Carthage - presumably they would have ignored him, although that might have had more to do with them being in some kind of thrall awaiting Death's arrival. However, with the gates of Heaven shut and the crapfest of angel skirmishes going on on Earth, the angels would naturally be running into reapers far more often and the two cousin species decided it was best to team up for the time being, especially since the reapers couldn't really do their regular jobs properly at that point. In fact, since the souls were just ending up stuck in the Veil, they probably ''really'' wanted to take out Metatron, moreso than the angels. Tessa was going crazy, and the other reapers likely wouldn't have been in much better shape, so the reapers would have been willing to work with the angels. Flash forward to season 11, and we've got Billie, who's not hanging around with any angels and whom Cas doesn't seem to really know. At this point, the bulk of angel fighting on Earth is over, so reapers like Billie would revert back to ignoring the angels again.
*** 3) What I thought was weird was that the Veil was ''still full of souls'' in season 11, which apparently the reapers hadn't bothered to clean up. I figured with Metatron booted out the souls would be back on track, but clearly not if Kevin was still in the Veil, so either Heaven can't figure out how to get its souls coming again, or the souls are coming in again but the ones caught in the Veil are simply stuck and nobody cares about them. I'm going with the latter. The angels probably don't consider it their problem to dig souls out of the Veil, and the reapers may have gotten used to the screams and don't care any more. Which makes the reapers douches, but who on this show isn't?




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** Well yeah, but I always assumed Cas's clueless shtick was because he refrained from combing through Jimmy's memories, something that would have violated his vessel's privacy. Pretty much every other angel seems capable of understanding stuff than Cas because they probably absorb all of their host's memories the second they step in, like demons. But since Cas is actually reasonably ethical, he used the body, but left Jimmy's mind alone.




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** Sanitarium.




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** There are plenty of monsters that non-magical guns can take out. Werewolves, shifters, skinwalkers, etc. It's usually the bullets that need to be special, like silver or salt for ghosts. It's just that Sam and Dean often take cases involving demons and stuff that other hunters might not be able to handle, so we see the special weapons come out more often with them.




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** The ghost dude trapping all of the other ghosts had some major spiritual mojo going. It's possible that he was somehow able to keep reapers out of the house, so they couldn't get the souls. Kind of a lame explanation, but it's the best I got.




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** This is part of my response for another couple of questions, but I'm just going to repeat it here. I imagine that reapers are related to angels, like some sort of cousins (the two do have some similar abilities, as would be needed to ferry souls to Heaven), but that angels and reapers generally don't interact with each other, as Cas didn't even bother trying to talk to the reapers in the Carthage - presumably they would have ignored him, although that might have had more to do with them being in some kind of thrall awaiting Death's arrival. However, with the gates of Heaven shut and the crapfest of angel skirmishes going on on Earth, the angels would naturally be running into reapers far more often and the two cousin species decided it was best to team up for the time being, especially since the reapers couldn't really do their regular jobs properly at that point. In fact, since the souls were just ending up stuck in the Veil, they probably ''really'' wanted to take out Metatron, moreso than the angels. Tessa was going crazy, and the other reapers likely wouldn't have been in much better shape, so the reapers would have been willing to work with the angels. Flash forward to season 11, and we've got Billie, who's not hanging around with any angels and whom Cas doesn't seem to really know. At this point, the bulk of angel fighting on Earth is over, so reapers like Billie would revert back to ignoring the angels again.
18th Jun '17 3:39:59 PM Xyzzclix
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* Why doesnt Dagon just possess kelly kline and just carry the nephillim to term that way?
** I know this is at least partially Buffy logic, but when Darla was pregnant - and the baby had a soul - Darla was temporarily a vampire with a soul because technically a soul was inside her. By similar logic, even if the baby-daddy is Lucifer... Lucifer's still an angel. The baby has angel's grace, and who knows what that will do to a Prince of Hell's system. Plus, according to Dagon, nephilim always, without question, kill the mothers and Dagon probably doesn't want to take the risk.

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* Why doesnt Dagon just possess kelly kline Kelly Kline and just carry the nephillim to term that way?
** I know this is at least partially Buffy logic, but when Darla was pregnant - and the baby had a soul - Darla was temporarily a vampire with a soul because technically a soul was inside her. By similar logic, even if the baby-daddy is Lucifer... Lucifer's still an angel. The baby has angel's grace, and who knows what that will do to a Prince of Hell's system. Plus, according to Dagon, nephilim always, without question, kill the mothers and Dagon probably doesn't want to take the risk.risk.
** Later in that season it's established that Lucifer's child will protect its mother, even to the point of resurrecting her after her suicide (though it is never stated whether this is true for all in-utero Nephilim). This troper would say it's not too much to say that it would have smote Dagon if she had attempted to possess Kelly.

* How is Mary able to beat Lucifer back into the spacetime rift in the finale with just normal Enochian brass knuckles? One could give her the fist, maybe even the second hit based on Lucifer being shocked or impressed at her resolve, or even him just being arrogant enough to want to show her how futile it is to fight him, but she hits him unopposed like five times! At literally any point during the fight he could have torn her in half, or just snapped his fingers and annihilated her on a sub-atomic level, as he's done in the past. How does she manage to beat him?!
30th May '17 12:47:14 AM ApeAccount
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** Just a couple of things to mention (some of them from the above discussion). First, the wording was, "five things in all of creation". Arguably, God, Amara and even Death don't count as in creation and so wouldn't be on the list of five. Second, I'd think Cain should be included (at the time the statement was made, the mark wouldn't let him die). Third, if we accept that the statement only applies to some archangels and not others, we do need to consider the question of how you'd know that (it's easy to know someone's immune; the Colt doesn't kill them, but hard to know the Colt can kill them unless there was a weaker archangel or equivalent being the Colt did kill). Finally, the list of five would of course not include any being not in existence at the time the statement was made.

30th May '17 12:20:38 AM ApeAccount
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** Dean being in hell for decades, doesn't discount the ability of time being fluid in hell and being able to be sped up for particular reasons as was stated above. I'm struggling to remember a time when the time difference has been shown or mentioned since hell has become a frequent visiting place. If time is fluid and normally doesn't move differently to Earth that makes perfect sense, particularly explaining the thing with the phone but if it's supposed to be different all the time it should at least come up now and then.
15th Apr '17 1:43:09 AM DarkCyberWolf
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* Why doesnt Dagon just possess kelly kline and just carry the nephillim to term that way?

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* Why doesnt Dagon just possess kelly kline and just carry the nephillim to term that way?way?
** I know this is at least partially Buffy logic, but when Darla was pregnant - and the baby had a soul - Darla was temporarily a vampire with a soul because technically a soul was inside her. By similar logic, even if the baby-daddy is Lucifer... Lucifer's still an angel. The baby has angel's grace, and who knows what that will do to a Prince of Hell's system. Plus, according to Dagon, nephilim always, without question, kill the mothers and Dagon probably doesn't want to take the risk.
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