Discussion UsefulNotes / AspergerSyndrome

It's complicated. This article/interview kind of summarizes my thoughts.

Edith Sheffer, author of ''Asperger's Children", is really pushing the interpretation that Asperger was a villain and that we should throw out the Asperger's name. Honestly, it sounds to me like she's introducing an important corrective view against the former positive view of Asperger, but going a tad overboard with it and also getting her own agenda about the redefinition of the autism spectrum involved. Herwig Czech, author of “Hans Asperger, National Socialism, and 'race hygiene' in Nazi-era Vienna.”, doesn't go quite that far:

"Regarding Asperger’s contributions to autism research," he writes, "there is no evidence to consider them tainted by his problematic role during National Socialism. They are, nevertheless, inseparable from the historical context in which they were first formulated, and which I hope to have shed some new light on. The fate of 'Asperger’s syndrome' will probably be determined by considerations other than the problematic historical circumstances of its first description—these should not, in any case, lead to its purge from the medical lexicon."

From Steve Silberman, author of Neuro Tribes, we get:

I think the work of exposing the culpability of these historical figures is valuable and necessary, which is why I agreed to be one of the peer reviewers of Czech’s paper for the Journal of Molecular Autism. Because of my research on the Nazi context of Asperger’s work in “NeuroTribes,” the new information in Czech’s paper and Sheffer’s book did not come as a total shock to me. I had already rewritten the US paperback text of NeuroTribes—which has been out for two years—to reflect Asperger’s more problematic role, including his signature on Herta Schreiber’s death warrant. But there’s new information in Czech’s paper and Sheffer’s book that will have to be taken into account when appraising the totality of Asperger’s legacy.

For a long time, Asperger has been viewed mostly in a positive light; now the pendulum is swinging in other direction. But I suspect that the most realistic picture of Asperger is neither a Schindler-like savior nor a Nazi supervillain. He was, most likely, a complicated and conflicted man who belonged to a group of medical professionals that recognized the potential of “autistic intelligence” long before anyone else did but who was willing to go along with his Nazi bosses even when Jewish storefronts were burning in front of his eyes—an image that haunted me while I was writing my book, and coincidentally appears in Sheffer’s book as well. Czech and Sheffer admit that there is no way of knowing how many children Asperger may have saved from euthanasia by using his position—but one child sent to “permanent placement” at Am Spiegelgrund is too many. The willingness of clinicians to go along in the face of great evil is what made it possible for the Nazis to transform the Austrian medical establishment into an industry of death. If you weren’t risking your life by actively resisting, you became complicit in the horror that was created. That’s a heavy lesson for this historical moment, when government officials are routinely asked to ignore norms and ethics to fulfill various agendas.

A bit further along,

There’s a tendency to see the barbaric conditions in the Austrian institutions that Czech and Sheffer describe as purely a product of the Nazi ethos, but several of the American institutions I describe in my book were equally barbaric and brutal, even if the staff didn’t practice euthanasia. My book describes Ivar Lovaas, who led the development of Applied Behavior Analysis for autism at the University of California in Los Angeles, subjecting kids to experimental “treatments” for autism that can only be called torture, zapping them with electrified floors or bombarding them with ear-splitting noise. If we think unimaginable cruelty toward autistic people ended with the Allies’ victory over Hitler, we’re fooling ourselves.

I admire Sheffer’s scholarly work on detailing what she calls Asperger’s “slide into complicity.” Now more than ever, we have to be aware of how violence against stigmatized people—whether it’s Jews, immigrants, people of color, or kids with autism—can quickly become institutionalized, just a part of how society works, “common sense.” Believe me, when I was writing “NeuroTribes,” I never thought I’d see Nazis in the news so soon. Sheffer’s book is well timed. Unfortunately, in the epilogue, she makes a very offbase claim: “Ultimately, Lorna Wing regretted how she brought Asperger’s ideas to the English-speaking world and changed the face of autism.” I did one of the last in-depth interviews with Lorna before she died in 2014, and nothing could be further from the truth. Lorna considered her discovery of Asperger syndrome and the broadening of autism into a spectrum to be the crowning achievements of her career.

To conclude with Maxfield Sparrow:

When the chips are down, I will always join with my neurotribe. So I want to officially state that, while I still don’t personally want to be called an Aspie, I am ready to fight on behalf of my Autistic siblings who do connect with that identity—not as a euphemism for high functioning, but as a cultural marker of their understanding of themselves and the world we live in. No, you cannot take away the identity of thousands of Autistics! Asperger had deep flaws, but the identity that has grown around his name is valid and the people who identify with Asperger’s have the right to decide for themselves whether to keep his name or not.

Personally, I'm not yet ready to move on from the Asperger's name. It's taken on a life of its own, apart from the man it's named after, and there are so many people who have gained recognition and community by identifying with this label. Maybe the trend in the future is going to be to get rid of it, and it will sound kind of like the terms "negro" or "colored" sound today: former terms of solidarity and pride which eventually came to sound old-fashioned or even offensive. I'm of such a mind that if a new term that was both accurate and proud were to gain traction, I might be willing to let Asperger's go in the future, but I don't want to ditch it just out of a misguided sense of moral panic.

I think there's a certain hypocrisy in getting all worked up about Asperger's crimes when there isn't a popular push to re-name Porsche or Volkswagen for using slave labor during the Nazi era, or take the name off of everybody's Fords because of his anti-semitic publications. Edwaerd Muybridge, the grandfather of moving pictures, got off Scott-free for the cold-blooded murder of his wife's lover. Isaac Singer, of sewing machine fame, was a bigamist and domestic abuser, while James Watson of DNA fame went on that racist rant. It's an uncomfortable fact that many of the things we use today were invented by people who were jerkass or even evil, and while that horribleness needs to be brought to light, I think that names have a certain role in remembering history. I think it isn't always clear-cut whether the better thing to do is strike their names off the campus buildings, as it were, or keep them around as a reminder of the ambiguous and dark dimensions of history. Sometimes it may be appropriate to distance one's community from the name of a morally compromised person—I do support the idea of taking Confederate monuments out of public squares and into museums, for example—but I think we should have a serious discussion about this instead of rushing into it.

As an autistic person within the autistic community, the community stopped using the "aspergers" terminology before we even knew about the Nazi connection. It is inaccurate to separate out 'autism' vs 'aspergers'. It's all ASD. We're all just people trying to live in a world not built with us in mind.

My hesitation has finally gone away. I'm probably going to keep talking about Asperger's in conversations out of sheer habit, but it shouldn't be the main title of this page anymore. Let's make it UsefulNotes/AutismSpectrumDisorder with a redirect from UsefulNotes/AspergersSyndrome. In practice the text of this page is about a particular part of the autism spectrum, specifically those who would have been diagnosed with aspergers syndrome in the past. We can state in the opening paragraph that the terminology had evolved over time, and that the people now considered ASD may in the past have been diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome or called themselves Aspies. We don't necessarily need to wade into the mess of what Hans Asperger did or didn't do.

I think it's a better idea to wait until the new name(s) have caught traction in the wider world. They might not.

You don't suppose the redirect will take care of that? Anybody looking for aspergers syndrome should be able to find it, right?

Sorry, I was a little unclear: TV Tropes is not in the business of telling people what to think. As you yourself said, a lot of things are still named after people who did highly unethical things. For all we know the same will happen with Asperger syndrome. I think we need more time to tell how "Asperger syndrome" shakes out.

I'm not even thinking about the controversy over Asperger's career. To me that shouldn't really matter. I'm just getting used to the fact that the medical terminology had started moving on before this story even hit the news. Basically we're in a situation where the official diagnostic name is ASD, but the public is still in the habit of calling it Asperger's. I suppose one could just as easily argue either way whether useful notes pages about topics should bear the most technically correct name, or the most publicly familiar name. But I get what you're saying about how the most prudent action is to wait and see.

You can find the abstract of Hans Asperger, National Socialism, and "race hygiene" in Nazi-era Vienna by Czech, hosted on the National Institutes of Health website with pictures of the historical documents referenced. Type the url https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29713442 into the address bar.

Frankly I think you are the one who is out of line, One Man Cast, impugning people and insulting the mods for not shutting them down. You're entitled to your opinions, but not to castigate everyone who disagrees with you.

can we uh call it autism...? Not even 'high functioning autism' stuff bc it's a spectrum, just........... autism.

As an autistic person, I agree with the commenter above me. Why does autism need to be separated? We're all autistic.

just feel like Not Good With People could be added to the "Social Issues" point

Why do you list emotional things under sensory? Those are very different things, as emotions aren't one of the five senses.

It's about the way the brain processes and emotionally reacts to the stimuli, not "super-senses", hence emotional.

Asperger's Syndrome and High-Functioning Autism are two different syndromes - namely, the latter is a milder form of Kanner's Syndrome (Early-Childhood Autism, the classic image of autism), in which the afflicted has a for Kanner's untypically high IQ (anything between the "average" of 100 and intellectual giftedness). I (being an Aspie, thx) motion to remove the reference to a completely different part of the WHO catalogue's chapter on the autistic spectrum. As for Asperger's name, well. You might as well demonise the scientists who discovered the nuclear chain reaction - because we went and built the nuclear bomb from their work. Asperger lived in terrible times and made the best/the worst of it, but it is thanks to his work that people like us have A NAME TO STICK TO THE THING that rules our lives. Otherwise, you can also remove the word autism from the dictionary (since Kanner lived in the same times).

Hm, I dunno which kind of autism I do have, but I'm autistic ((((diagnosed)))) and my neuropsychologist told me my iq is in the 130s. I'd say I'm gifted.

Hi, tocp. Just about every geek I've ever known does that. One of the geeks I knew had Asperger's, but the other 100+ or so didn't.

I think there are a lot of mix-ups about Aspie characterics with geek characteristics or the characteristics of people who were bullied as children. Geeks are often people who were bullied as kids. Aspies usually get bullied as kids because they're different. So people notice that many Aspies have a characteristic in common and they attribute it to Asperger's, when in fact it's something that most geeks or most kids who were bullied have in common.

Well, repetitive behavior is actually a symptom...

It is? It is? It is? It is? LOL! Sorry, couldn't resist.

You're not talking about echolalia, are you? That's more common with more non-verbal flavors of ASD. Aspergers (back when it was still DSM) was notable for early, prolific speech - hence the "little professor" moniker. Over-quoting movies or jokes for attempted humor is geek; attempting to use quotes from movies to communicate because you lack spontaneous speech is something else.

hecuba, it's called "Scripting". There is both social scripting and echolialial scripting.

I normally don't do that, even being in the spectrum.

I think that's a great idea, but to prevent people from getting ideas, I'd advise adding something like this: "You may think that you can recognize this 'accent' but if you are reading this post, you are probably NOT an expert. It's unadvisable to tell people they have Asperger, and you might be wrong just as well as right." May need some polishing, but I'm not a very good writer...

I don't think "being a good writer" factors into your condescension Strijder. You come across as demanding and presumptuous. Fact of the matter is this. People shouldn't change to make you feel happy. I'm diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome and every day I feel like it is a curse. Telling people how to act won't change a thing. Particularly when you know how they actually think and feel.

Just because you're diagnosed doesn't mean you're not being a ableist jerk, internalized ableism is a thing.

My voice has a range of tones that no one's in my classroom has!!! It's happy and cheerful!! Teehee—!! :D ☆

Sure. If you can update it that would be great.

The things I've changed so far (and those being the only parts I feel comfortable editing without first proposing the change here):

"He called them "Little Professors" due to their ability to memorize facts. AS, as it is abbreviated, is on the autism spectrum. It shares many similarities with autism as a whole, but there a few differences. As of February 2010, Asperger's has been officially listed as a form of autism and not a separate disorder by the American Psychiatric Association."

I've changed this to put Hans into a bit more positive light (the man was pretty much the patron saint and founder of the modern they 'Autism rights' movement, by virtue of being one of the few respected men in his time willing to believe that people with Autism were capable of actually achieving something).

I've changed 'It shares many similarities with autism as a whole, but there a few differences.' (not enough, I now realize), because AS does not 'share many similarities with autism as a whole', is is Autism so saying it 'shares similarities' is as redundant as saying 'a word shares many similarities with a string of letters' and there are not 'a few differences', there are a few things that are distinct about it as a classification, to keep the 'word <-> letters' analogy it would be like saying there are differences between a 'word' and 'a string of letters' (which of course there aren't, 'words' are simply a form of 'strings of letters')

I've changed the part about the DSM to reflect that:

1. The change with regards to AS as a classification isn't official until the DSM-5 is actually finalized and published. Though unlikely, it may still change.

2. That Asperger's Syndrome has never NOT been considered a form of Autism and was never considered a separate disorder, only a classification.

I removed the mention of the APA. Though I wouldn't mind the mention being returned for clarity, I couldn't find a place to put it in without disrupting the flow of the sentence.

Starting to get too Wikipedia-like. Useful notes are meant to be useful for understanding how to treat the topic in a story. Stuff like pending DSM-5 entries is too granular. I'll do a little whittling on it.

I agree with a cutting it down a bit Eddie, but right now the page reads as if Asperger's is just the 'official' term for Autism (if you read between the line and get the wrong message).

Also no. The Main Useful Notes entry makes it clear that Useful Notes are meant to be useful for understanding how a topic works, not just in stories, but in 'reality' too. Mostly, I guess, because Biographies, Autobiographies, Documentaries and Encyclopedias use and have Tropes too. The whole DSM-5 part is important to know when you're comparing pre-February 2010 to post-February 2010 books about Autism (of which there are metric shitloads) since some writers who've noticed the declassification of Autism will stop using the term 'Asperger's Syndrome', while other writers are going to ignore it and keep talking about Asperger's.

As I noted above, I'm autistic, with a few more add-ons on top, so although I definitely am within the spectrum, I'm most definitely not a good representative to go by, and autistic have very different personalityíes the same as everybody else, but do you think that my attempt at listing the symtoms from my experiences with other autistic and myself to be reasonably clarifying? Your apparently greater expertise would be greatly appreciated.

Let me say first off that my expertise is in no way greater. I've had some training in verbalizing it for people who don't know what it's like to be me (i.e. everyone who isn't me), but there are millions of people who are much better experts on their own Autism than I am.

Any way, I disagree (not generally since we share views on politics, the Vorkosigan Saga and several other things, but for now what matters is that I disagree on this issue) with Eddy when it comes to whether or not this page should provide an in depth look into the Disorder. By all accounts it should, because there is no such thing as a 'cliff notes' version of Asperger's Syndrome or the Autism Spectrum. And I bring that up, because I feel that yes, your input is clarifying. Though I do feel you might, on the whole, be a bit too bleak on the prospects.

Suicide for instance isn't more likely in kids with Autism/Asperger's for no reason than that they're watched more closely. However statistics do show children and adults with Autism have more 'suicidal tendencies'. This is because tests on the subject are dumb not direct and people with Autism are honest. When a test asks 'Have you thought seriously about suicide?' every Autist in the world will answer 'yes' unless they realize that what the question is really asking is 'do you plan and want to commit suicide'. Likewise such a test does not take into account that if you get a question about suicide in a test, you will be thinking about suicide, so if the test asks 'have you been thinking about suicide in the last week' the answer is also always 'yes'. So yeah. Skewed results, not as bleak as it seems.

Any way, I'll make it a personal project to improvify the page over the next month or so, starting with combining the current first and fourth traits ('Delays in social interaction' and 'lack of social empathy') into a single trait, since both stem from the same source and are basically the same thing (and I in no way suggest this as the title for the trait): Lack of 'aping'. Essentially the fact that Autists, Aspies included, learn the meaning of non-verbal communication cognitively (by thinking 'This man is doing something with his face, which I have learned is called 'a frown'. What does this mean? Last time he made this face he said he was angry, but the time before that he said he was confused. When he was angry, his voice was loud. His voice now is not loud. This man is confused. Why is he confused?') rather than 'subconsciously' ('Ah, that man didn't understand what I just said.'). Now to find a way to formulate that so it doesn't make us sound... Well... Stupid.

I am also going to add Autism vs. Asperger's i.e. the fact that some Aspies don't (want people to) think they're Autistic and why back in because quite simply it's a useful note on Asperger's. Though the bit about the DSM doesn't need to be part of that.

Deleted as possibly inappropriate.

I know that this is a comment more suited for Troper Tales, but, there isn't one for here, so I'm putting this here...

Whoever made this, thank you, thank you so much. As an Aspie, I often have difficulty describing what it's really like to people who ask me about it. And... I'm really glad that I can direct them somewhere and say "Yes, this is what it's like, these are what I am like."

Thank you again...

Deleted as possibly inappropriate.

There's starting to be some opinion creep in the article, I think it needs to be overviewed in places.

One thing I would add is that I am constantly asking myself in social situations, "Am I doing this right?" This unending self-examination is quite tiring and provokes a continual low-level anxiety. So all too often, it is simply easier to avoid socializing. For the last decade, I have had, quite literally, no social life outside of my family.

I think we should just nix these topics. Its quite clear none of you can handle it. You all literally beat around the bush to this same conclusion anyways.

"Adjust this here, because my autism's different!" "Change this there, because tvtropes is about fiction!"

Like, do you people ever even proofread your own posts?! Oh who am I kidding? Ofc not.

Go look up "bad faith" in the dictionary and STFU.

Um...please explain.

Um...please explain.

I never got that. I thought the page was sympathetic, noting advantages as well as disadvantages.

Okay, here's the detailed reason: Look at the start of the page saying "you will have run into someone claiming that s/he has this condition and were wondering what it meant. Well, we here at TV Tropes aim to fix you up with that info." and the end saying "It is fairly normal to encounter people...". They're saying it only for non-AS people. There's nothing in this page saying info DIRECTLY to the AS people.

I honestly don't think the page needs to cater to people with Asperger Syndrome. All that really matters is that it is informative as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, the vast majority of people out there don't have AS. Working on that assumption, a majority of the people visiting this page won't have it either, though the traffic of people who actually do have AS might be higher than is usual due to our inherent interest in the subject matter. I say the context of the information is fine as it is.

I agree. The page was meant to be informative, and the people who need most to be informed are the "norms", not the Aspies. So obviously it addresses the average Joe. Personally, for the most part I think this is one of the most informative pages on the web and frequently point people to it.

I just discovered the page today, but after having read through it, I thought of referring people to the page, too. It's very well written, overall.

I also didn't feel left out here, it was indeed very well-described and many points match my own experience, though of course not all of them.

Jonny B Hard disagree here. I think those with Aspergers Syndrome (also, please nix Aspie) need a hard boot of reality. Its already obnoxious that people have expectations of me that get completely ruined by people who think that those lesser than those w/o disabilities think they can condescend and tell those w/o the diagnosis that they "need" to be informed. Ofc they don't "need" to know. What possible incentive could they possibly have in order to "need" to know those with a neurological disorder? The correct phrase is "I want them to know" and it is telling that you think those on the outside "need" to understand "us". Pro Tip: Try to write away from an entitled perspective. "We" are the ones who need to understand "them". "They" are the ones who rule this social atmosphere. We're the damn dregs and that is reality.

More internalized ableism. Please, please, just shut the fuck up.

I've said 'I have this disorder and I think that's why either you just didn't understand what I meant or I just didn't understand what you meant' when I was younger and more naive towards the internet and found it responded to quite badly. Mostly because I was using it as an explanation, but the people I was talking to thought it was an excuse. While the same situation resolves itself fine if I drop the 'disorder' part and simply said that I thought there was a misunderstanding without mentioning Asperger's.

So yeah I think you're right on that account. And I've also, in the past, been accused of both stalking and intimidation. The stalking part was my fault. I thought I was simply 'taking an interest', but I took it way, way too far and I'm just glad that the person I did that to eventually decided on explaining to me what I was doing wrong and helping me to give me a good feel for personal boundaries. We're still good friends now and make it a point to get together at least once per month. The intimidation thing was more me not realizing that a seventeen year old girl in my college class when I was twenty three didn't appreciate me being direct about my disapproval of her slacking off on a group project, but then the college discovered I wasn't the first guy who she's reported after they disagreed with her (lack of) group behavior, so ultimately my having Asperger's didn't contribute much, beyond me not being aware I was giving her fodder to use against me.

And indeed one of the most important aspects I always address when I speak before a group is that we're not (all) precious little angels who never mean harm or take advantage of a situation... But most of us mean well.

I've also been accused of "stalking" because my social skills were so bad that I didn't realize I was being inappropriate. Fortunately a couple of young ladies in my social circle recognized me as someone with, if you'll pardon the expression, "special needs", and took it upon themselves to coach me a bit in social interaction skills. (No, not in that way, lol!)

I do think that most Aspies don't intentionally use their Aspergers Syndrome as an excuse, however sometimes I think it comes off that way because we generally have a hard time expressing ourselves. However, that's not to say that all Aspies are like that and that there aren't a few that are intentionally jerkasses and like hiding behind their Aspergers label.

There's also a difference between using it as an excuse and being unapologetic. Even if I'm told that something I did was rude, if I can't understand why, even after it is explained to me, I won't feel bad about it.

I think that it's still worth keeping SOME form of the "aspies will often apologize profusely once informed they are being offensive" statement, if only because it really is incredibly common. There was certainly a bit of white knighting going on in this page, and that section needed revision, but it's still important for people to know that we rarely actually mean to hurt them, and with that section gone I don't think it comes out quite as strongly.

The biggest problem is that you still have a WHOLE LOT of people saying this without even being aspies. Of course some aspies will be .... Well. Let's stay polite. And use this as an excuse. But we're talking about defining the majority here, since in the end all aspies are different. On the other end, someone using this as a pretext if he isn't an aspie or anything will only be saying this in order to get away with anything. It is meant to be a definition with broad strokes, otherwise it would be a lot longer.

"aspie" is not a polite term.

"And on the less creepy side, there are plenty of Aspies who take pride in being superior elitists if they've grown up with high I Qs and are thoroughly jaded with the average-IQ mundanes around them."

This is accurate about me to a T. Aside from the "aspie" term. The ONLY good thing about the DSM V is the deathknell of the slang term "aspie". Now if only we could get rid of the neurotypical...

• Neurotypical terminology

You sound like those TERFS who scream "Qu Ee R iS a Sl Ur!!!!" at every opportunity. Just because YOU don't like the term doesn't mean others don't, and it's not established as a slur or an insult, so just STFU and stop expecting the world to revolve around what YOU want.

What is noted is that we do not have the same responses as Neuro Typical individuals have. We can go either the "feels nothing" route or hypersensitivity route. Some of us are a mixed bag, being hypersensitive to SOME things while being unaffected by what would drive a Neuro Typical person from the room screaming.

I'm legit disappointed in the amount of people content to be defined by their diagnoses. It is almost incredible the pure fatalism in terms like "aspie" and "neurotypical".

Just because you acknowledge something doesn't make it your WHOLE identity. Stop operating under bad faith and stop being an ableist shitbag.

Well, sometimes we as Aspies want to explain our condition in such a way that people understand. Not all the cases are like that, but still, it's a general idea.

Yes, they are to us with Asperger's Syndrome

I dunno. I just worry that they might promote stereotypes about people with Asperger's.

Do not ever use "Aspie" to define me, even loosely. K thnx bye. "We Aspies" is a disgusting way to use generalization fallacy.

They're not. Just like LGBT+ people who don't like the term "queer" are not part of the queer community, you're not part of the aspie community. Stop being a self-involved ableist shitbag.

Woah. As one person with Aspergers Syndrome/Autism Spectrum Disorder, who has known a lot of other people on the spectrum and gone to various groups/conventions, I was ignorant until now that someone found the term "Aspie" so cringey and offensive. I'm glad I know that now.

I've heard different demonyms for people with Aspergers, like Aspergerians or Aspergians, but I guess Aspie has fewer syllables and some people like me think it sounds nice or charming, so I assume that's why it's popular even though I happen to not be in the habit of using it. We could put "A Person with Aspergers" in place of every instance of "an Aspie", but it's hard to see how we can avoid using some kind of jargon or label when the passages concerned are about how people w/ Aspergers are different from people without Aspergers.

I have thought of "Neurotypical" as a word which has potential negative connotations, as in "people who aren't as special/unique/genius as people with aspergers/ASD", but researchers and journalists without aspergers have used the term without taking offense themselves, and it's kind of a compromise to avoid saying "normal people", which tends to Other or stigmatize Aspergers, or something insulting in the other direction like "normies". We should be able to talk precisely and neutrally about these two broad categories of people because Aspergers is something that exists relative to the broad norms of human cognition and social behavior.

Your remark about the "autist" who wrote this page strikes me as rather counterproductive to your argument not to use offensive labels. You and I are both considered to be on the autism spectrum. Why should we use autism as a term of abuse?

Redacted by moderator, poster is banned anyway

Tall people have a shorter lifespan than short people. So tallness is genetically inferior, got it.

May want to ask here for input.

While we're making the page more useful in terms of actual information, some actual epidemiological data might be nice, since a lot of the informational resources online are advocacy sites that basically make up numbers.

e.g. it's not really useful to list "it's fake" as a myth and then not elaborate on the actual incidence, which is something like "less than 1 per 2000 people" according to Ophalim and "less than 1 in 1000 people" according to the US's NIH.

An actual number on what it means that it's vanishingly rare but not nonexistent would give some perspective.

Redacted by moderator, poster is banned anyway

I agree, it's not a learning disability at all. In fact, it's somewhat the opposite. Someone with Asperger's can't help not learning and have aptitudes far above others at their age. Although we're also often Attention Deficit, so although we may be able to assimilate more information, it often doesn't do us a lot of good as we have trouble focusing.

I actually find that somewhat amusing. I was one of the big contributors to this page shortly before it got locked and edited a lot of things that were frankly inaccurate. But as an Aspie I had a tendency to not be satisfied and continually go back, edit, rewrite and reorder what I had done before. I was actually somewhat relieved when it finally got locked. I'm proud of the final product; while I think there are still some inaccuracies, I think it's a great place to point someone to, to get some "real dope" about Asperger's Syndrome.

Sorry if I'm missing something, but could you explain why you having AS explains you disliking schadenfreude?

High empathy; low filters; naturally honest and sincere; take things literally; extremely obsessive-compulsive; bombarded with constant intense hatred, distortions, sneer, ridicule that somehow assume that you actually do process and function in the same manner regular people do; anal-retentive and seeing almost everything in patterns including inconsistencies, insincerity, and full implications of moral systems and ideology; recurrently given mistreatment on a level that in sum total would actually be classified as torture by the Geneva convention, and so onwards...

It's not a good mixture combo, and in many cases "growing thicker skin, and trying not to take things seriously" is already strainingly pushed as far as it can get, but there is a lot of attempted false cheer in the face of overwhelming bigotry going on, and there are apparently networks that attempt to build up systems for filtering the constant onslaught.

Of course, it would certainly have saved me an awful lot of time and effort to have had the information at hand from the start, so if the parents are attentive early, young autistic have the opportunity to get much better training to accommodate to it from the start.

Really? Having bigotry piled on me at an early age made me LOVE schadenfreude. Empathy be damned.

I'm the opposite. The more people have bombarded me with unprovoked and distorted hatred and bigotry, the more I realise the necessity of the opposite; that torture and ideological sadism isn't the answer at all and won't help anybody, that all we have is each other, and our common focus should be our fight against nature, not each other.

At the same time true evil, not as the people infected, but as what it conceptually means must be exposed and defined to stop idealising and encouraging it (no, not by torturing it, that won't give any healing to yourself) and rather start breaking away from it. Of course instinctive lashout self-defense is far more understandable, and very far from true evil, you need systematic ideological sadism for that, but it should still preferably be avoided.

I haven't learned anything new per se, but it's helped clarify and distill some things, vindicate others (I KNEW the fact that my narrow focus shifts over time wasn't a barrier to being "real" Asperger's when all the other symptoms are there in spades except to the extent I've learned to cope by trial and error)! I think the page is incredibly informative for people who aren't familiar with it, or worse, think they are...

This page helped me understand my boyfriend better actually. It puts a lot of stuff into some kind of context, and makes me feel slightly less neurotic about a crapton of stuff. Plus I couldn't help but chuckle at the notion that the more you hang around someone with Aspergers, you may start taking on some of their traits, because I swear it's slowly happening to me. Our reactions and discussions about the recent shootings in Norway would get us strange looks and would be frowned upon as an inappropriate response.

Only that I hate my diagnosis more while you cliche tokens get to be the definitions

Audio Sensory Issues: I literally listen to metal and loud rap. People with Aspergers aren't supposed to be able to handle it due to "audio sensory issues".

Aspergers Patients are terrible with social cues,etc.:

This is basically what is implied on this site. I'm literally going to run for Governor of my State. Screw off with this. The only reason why I tolerate this garbo being on this website is because it has become a cliche to have all of these misconceptions in the first place. I don't suggest adding in real world clarifications. The real world has no place in fiction. If you want to not see Autism Cliches, don't watch stories and films within the Hollywood Autism trope. Idiots. No wonder the mainstream doesn't respect people with autism. Every time I come on here, I feel less respect for myself. I mostly come on to this section to see if something I said has been given a response.

Speaking of which,

Technical mods, can you run a notifs feature? So that I don't have to tolerate the autism in these threads? Notifs would be far more appreciated than having to scavenge around to look for any.

Deleted as possibly inappropriate.

Sorry if this is in the wrong spot, I just need to publicly respond to yet another "there are THOUZUNDS of evil assburgers who use asperger's as a license to be a typical Internet user" comment:

Their post: "Calling someone an autist is new, but autistic/ass-burger are long-standing insults ever since some kids decided 'I have Asperger's (citation needed), and so did some smart people (citation needed), I AM A GENIUS (forget citation, it's a delusion)? AND HAVE AN EXCUSE TO BE A FUCKWIT!'"

My response: So... where are these wannabeaspies? Could someone point them out (aka throwing Citation Needed right back in your face)? There HAS to be legions of them for the insult to be in such common vernacular (meaning one or two outlier examples are insufficient).

Or is it as I suspect: just a mostly-nonexistent BOOGIEMAN* used to uphold a bullcrap position, not unlike the munchkin, the black metal elitist, and the dorm-prowling rapist hiding in every bush.

Until you lippy jerkoffs — incapable of even a speck of creativity in your entire lives — come forth and prove me wrong, I'm going with my conclusion of you being insensitive PRICKS.

• I tried very hard not to say 'strawman' even though it is factually accurate.

Uh, yeah, posts like this are why it has such a bad rep. It's the needless whiteknighting and over-aggressive defensive against perceieved, hypothetical slights.

Not to mention that it has the assumption that anyone claiming Asperger's to get out of being a dickwad must not actually have it, which is patently false. Plenty of people use legitimate diagnoses and actual research to back up their fuckwittery. It doesn't make them RIGHT, but it does happen, and I don't think we should ever doubt someone's diagnosis in such a way just because they call attention to the more unpleasant aspects of being an Aspie.

Also, you with just the ISP name, lying has always come naturally to me. Every professional I've seen since 1996 has agreed that I've got legit Asperger's. Sociopathy has never once entered into it, even before my diagnosis. Honestly, this website is the only one I've ever seen that tries to insist otherwise.

I think the idea is that for a lot of people it's mentally taxing and disconcerting in logistic terms (I have that experience, certainly), not that people on the spectrum don't feel the urge to.

By the way, the key distinction between Asperger's and Autism, as I understand it, is developed and often continuingly impaired verbal communication: people with Autism are more likely to need special therapies to learn to talk and interact with others at all, whereas people with Asperger's are likely to dive right into a conversation and kill it in a line or two.

"... and kill it in a line or two." That made me laugh out loud. So true! I've learned to be a fairly social animal, but I can still kill a conversation cold if I'm not paying attention and let the inherent traits of wanting to dominate the convo with some lame thing that only I am interested in take over.

As for lying, I am an Aspie that has a really hard time with it. Although I can say that I've learned to be better at it over time (as with all things Aspie, the up-side to our syndrome is that we have the gifts necessary to learn to overcome most of our symptoms if we apply ourselves), it is still something that isn't natural to me; I generally tell the truth, even when it comes out blunt. (I've learned tact but I'm not good at it.) You're right, it is easier to tell the truth; lying takes effort (and a certain amount of skill). The downside of this is that I'm also fairly incapable of telling when someone is lying to ME, and tend to be overly trusting, and therefore often gullible.

Regarding the dickwards and trolls hiding under the cloak of Aspergers' Syndrome: Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of the media playing up Aspies as crazies, and getting equally tired of scriptkiddies and hackwits using Aspergers as an excuse for just plain poor behavior. As for me, I was instilled with a strong sense of moral behavior, a code of honor if you will, from an early age, and to me, my Aspergers merely intensified the need to hold to that code, as I didn't understand normal interpersonal interactions but this code I did understand. These trolls that use Aspergers as an excuse to be jerks disgust me; they have no honor.

"These trolls that use Aspergers as an excuse"

Give examples, as I've never seen one. In fact, it is my belief that it is little more than a boogeyman to discredit those who have asperger's by assigning them imaginary villains. It's really no different than the hate smear campaigns against gays by saying they're responsible for AIDS.

No, it's completely different. I don't recall any aspies being dragged out of their homes and killed over it, or lynched, or victimised in the streets. This kind of hyperbolic, self-gratifying comparison is precisely why claims of ASPERGERS! get a bad name.

"Victimized in the streets."

Maybe not in the streets, but in the halls? Have you ever been forced to be in a special education room? Do you know what kind of shitstorm that brings? Unfortunately, anyone who saw you entering the room, or getting off of a short bus, or heard that you did either of the two will harass you relentlessly.

@Acritdy I totally agree! How dare those assburgers and their filthy apologists complain about people saying bad crap about them, and how dare they and their dirty apologists NEEDLESSLY defend them. Just like how women have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL sexism, gay people have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL homophobia, and black people have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL racism. No cognitive dissonance there at all.

@Zenimax Shakespere I wasn't referring to people in this forum; I'm speaking of in the media, you hear of such and such a person committing a crime, then they say they have Aspergers as if somehow that makes what they did alright. I see it in the news all the time; recently it seems to have become a fad to do something odious and then say "Aspergers" to try to excuse it. Or the media will pin it on the person, as if that makes it ok, like saying "they're just retarded" used to be, now it's "they just have Aspergers."

@Jonny B: Whenever I've seen the media comment on the fact that a criminal has Asperger's they don't seem to be trying to use it as an excuse. To me at least it comes across as an attempt to sensationalise the condition and imply it has a link to criminal behaviour. For example there was a lot in the press about how the Virginia Tech killer had AS. I worry that the condition will become demonised in the same way as schizophrenia.

@Zenimax Shakespere

I only need to cite your own self. You're being an ass. Shut up.

I find it a bit jarring that this part of the Useful Notes page says that; what's to say about me, who admittedly does lie and has a bad habit of doing so. Of course, being a habitual liar doesn't make me a convincing one (I've been told I have a very obvious tell, which tends to make me a Bad Liar), but still...

I'm diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome and I'm a politician. So...

Ehh.

Nevermind. I made a slight change and an addendum that I think suffices to mitigate the original perceived harshness of the OP's addition as well as shed more light on the perception of religious Aspies.

But see, that's the thing. There is no logic in faith. There is no logic in religion. Just Post Mortem rationalization. A "Oh, the institution of religion creates accountability". There is nothing inherently "logical" about religion or faith. You just happen to venture outside of "the spectrum".

The DSM IV ***IS*** vague in the diagnostic criteria. Having Asperger traits does not mean that one has Aspergers. One must have multiple traits from several categories in order to get the DX. Also, there *is* a VERY strong Aspergers community out there, and doing that will push a good deal many Berserk Buttons.

Asperger is still in the ICD-10.

Better keep the way is now, at lest until de ICD-11 is released in 2017. This revision so far is doing something similar to the DSM-5, but since ICD-10 still valid and used for diagnosis doesn't make much sense combine asperger's to autism and create a single useful note yet.

About being more narrowly defined, as said by Loken, DSM-IV is vague, but maybe is necessary to put emphasis in the fact than this traits should be present since childhood.

I disagree with the inclusion of the ASD. Merging it with a disease notorious for low functioning people from social perception, is wholly irresponsible. Aspergers Syndrome individuals should not be in the same classification as those of lower functioning.

It's as equally well founded as your own anecdotal evidence. A hell of a lot of people claim to have aspergers syndrome regardless of their actual mental health - or lack thereof - hence the irritation with how common it seems.

And bollocks about being 'intelliophobia'. Asperger's is not a super power that gives you amazing intelligence, nor does anyone rage at people who claim to have it for that reason.

@Acritdy I totally agree! How dare those assburgers and their filthy apologists complain about people saying bad crap about them, and how dare they and their dirty apologists NEEDLESSLY defend them. Just like how women have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL sexism, gay people have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL homophobia, and black people have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL racism. No cognitive dissonance there at all.

@Expose Them All- Care to give a link to just 1 person claiming to have AS, on any public forum, anywhere on the Internet, and using it as en excuse for bad behaviour? I've never seen it and I have been on the internet for a while. Please enlighten me.

About sexism- there is a very clear, obvious and measurable difference in the wages of males and females working in equivalent roles. Or you could look up the public school funding for state schools and compare that to the ratio of "black" people in the school's region (in the U.S. of course). As for this homophobia- "faggot", "fag", "poofter", "homo" are all used as insults, all refer to homosexuality, it's not a coincidence.

As a general thing aspie's like to "know" things, while most people seem content to just "know about" them. That extends to wanting other people to "know" instead of just "know about". So I want to "know" who are these people that are trolls and using it as an excuse to be a jerkass, just "knowing about" them existing is not enough. I also want that this page be a true reflection of AS so other people can "know" the real circumstances of AS, so unless this proof can be shown I think the trolls<=>AS part should be removed.

Asperger's is often thought to coincide with above-average intelligence, even with the tendency for IQ tests to evaluate ASD individuals poorly.

@Expose Them All, I've never seen anyone try to use it as an excuse for anything. I've seen it used to explain behavior, usually accompanied by an apology and a noticeable effort to fix the offending behavior, though.

Also, you're a troll.

EDITED: I realized that first line came out wrong, the first time. (Going on three years ago, I know).

"It's a documented fact that Asperger's tends to coincide with above average intelligence."

Turnabout is fair play. Can I see that documentation? And frankly, even if this is true, to equate anti-Aspie sentiment with intelliphobia is to implicitly say that high intelligence and Aspergers are the same thing, which is patently not true. It also just comes across as saying "you're just jealous because I'm totes a genius!"

And Expose Them All is clearly trolling, though, considering the subject matter, one would be forgiven for not realizing that.

As far as the question at hand, I think it's less a matter of people pretending to have AS to excuse their bad behavior, and more a matter of people assuming they have it because they are socially awkward and fancy themselves a misunderstood genius. I'm sure that they genuinely do think that they have AS, but without a diagnosis, it really is not "explaining" behavior at all. Until you have a diagnosis, everybody else has no choice but to assume that you don't have AS, and behavior is just...bad behavior. And I could, in fact, give an example of at least one person, on This Very Wiki, who thinks they have AS but are reluctant to be diagnosed. I would rather not have to go tracking down the exact post right at this moment.

And why are people reluctant to be sympathetic? Well, when somebody has said or done something that offends you, when they tell you, for all intents and purposes, that they couldn't help it, whether true or not, that's kind of a bitter pill. Also, when someone has been offended, they frankly do not care what the reason is. They don't want an explanation, they just want the apology. Explanations always sound like excuses, regardless of whether or not they are true, or whether or not they actually do excuse the offending behavior. They don't care why you offended them, they just want to know that you're sorry, and that it won't happen again. My advice is to leave off the explanation, unless they ask you point blank why you paid no heed to their feelings.

I want to tell them to stop taking everything so fucking personally. Not everyhing is about them.

To address a few things in this thread.

1)One of the requirements for an Asperger's Syndrome DX is at least average intelligence, which means the average and mean for Asperger's Syndrome will necessarily be above average.

2)Someone with Asperger's Syndrome may be unintentionally rude, and may bring up the Asperger's syndrome to explain that it WAS unintentional, but that is not the same as saying "I have Asperger's so deal with it". In fact, most, once the offense is explained will be horrified and attempt to make amends.

3)The anti-aspie sentiments expressed are very disturbing, phobic, and are the typical comments I would find from racists explaining their hatred for "those people"

Folks, this is not an autism forum.

@Sir Logi C

“Care to give a link to just 1 person claiming to have AS, on any public forum, anywhere on the Internet, and using it as en excuse for bad behaviour? I've never seen it and I have been on the internet for a while. Please enlighten me.”

People in my own anime community have used it in the past as an excuse for being an arsehole and irl people will give free reign if someone’s being an arsehole if they tell others they have it. People are generally sanctimonious. Clearly, you’re no exception.

“About sexism- there is a very clear, obvious and measurable difference in the wages of males and females working in equivalent roles.”

Major false assertion, proven by the fact that the only “discrepancy” is the amount women work. They generally work less hours than men do, due to the load of work a male can take on being more than a female’s. It is why women only want office work and administration. Whereas men drastically work more hours and will take any job whatsoever. A misandrist like me shouldn’t be forced to defend males, but your mentality’s too stupid to defend. “Or you could look up the public school funding for state schools and compare that to the ratio of "black" people in the school's region (in the U.S. of course).”

COMPLETE Non Sequitur. This neither has correlation nor causation. Misleading, pseudointellectual drivel.

“As for this homophobia- "faggot", "fag", "poofter", "homo" are all used as insults, all refer to homosexuality, it's not a coincidence.” A)Slurs are not a phobia. B)Co D Bois use it all the time outside of the sexuality context. You forget that words can have no meaning sometimes and are just blurted out for no reason. Many YouTubers do it with zero ill will towards the LGBTQ+ community. C)You forget that homosexuality is not the only definition for said words and are, in fact, a co-opting. Just like they’re trying to co-opt terms like “trap” and “femboy” as being trans when in fact they’re terms for “nonbinary males”. So, you’re wrong on all fronts here. “As a general thing aspie's like to "know" things, while most people seem content to just "know about" them. That extends to wanting other people to "know" instead of just "know about". So, I want to "know" who are these people that are trolls and using it as an excuse to be a jerkass, just "knowing about" them existing is not enough. I also want that this page be a true reflection of AS so other people can "know" the real circumstances of AS, so unless this proof can be shown I think the trolls<=>AS part should be removed.” You’re living proof fam. Saying you, as a person with Aspergers Syndrome (I will never use that disgusting term you idiots use) WANT TO KNOW who the people are that use it as an excuse to be a jerkass, while being a jerkass in how you make false assertions and accusations while being pretentious and posturing AF, predicated on desiring to “know”. So you’ve got your proof and you’re wrong about everything. GG no re. Also, ffs Septimus your claims hold no water at this point when you let a post about NAZIS of all things, continue to stand the test of time despite it being a completely irrelevant Non Sequitur while citing VOX of all places.

I was professionally diagnosed with Asperger's at a relatively late age (late 30s after seeking treatment for depresssion) and think that this section is just generally somewhat misleading. While it's true that AS doesn't define your entire identity in the sense that people with AS/HFA have different personalities and intelligence levels, comparing it to having red hair or a limp as the quote does is just absurd and even comparing it to dyslexia or alcoholism is very dubious. For a start those conditions (if it's appropriate to refer to having red hair as a "condition") can all be treated and overcome (except dyslexia, although the ways of managing that are somewhat easier to implement that those for managing AS).

AS and other AS Ds are the result of atypical brain development from as early as 4 weeks into foetal growth which continues into the early years of childhood and beyond (when people argue about the causes of AS Ds they are arguing about what causes this atypical development rather than the fact of it). This means we have hundreds or maybe thousands of neuro-chemical reactions going on at a vastly different intensity to that found in neurotypicals with very likely some reactions being entirely missing or novel when compared to neurotypicals (research, as they say, is on-going). That's why it's a pervasive developmental disorder (emphasis on pervasive). The brain is where your identity or personality or whatever you want to call it "lives" so to suggest that this radical change in the wiring and cognitive function has as little effect on identity as red hair or even alcoholism is wrong headed. The quote itself looks like something that someone with AS got from a CBT therapist. It's a bit of a truism among therapists that young people (which for these purposes means under 30) with AS will almost always ignore Occam's Razor and seek alternative explanations for behavioural quirks which can reasonably be explained by AS because they aren't ready to deal with the ramifications of a serious mental health problem that will be with them the rest of their life and limit the choices available to them compared to neurotypicals. Some therapists see this as harmless because it gives them a hook for CBT and makes it easier to help the patient manage their condition, others worry that it makes the ultimate reckoning worse.

To hopefully illustrate what I mean take adult sexual relationships as an example. Aspies have huge problems with these and many books (not all of them helpful) have been published discussing the issues. The problems range from things like fear of intimacy (which often manifests as being sex repulsed) to problems communicating sexual desire (the male AS partner will generally assume that a woman doesn't want to have sex with him unless she expressly says she does and a learned fear of misreading social cues will generally prevent the AS partner from initiating anything in case he's got it wrong and might commit a sexual assault, this continues even as the relationship develops and it's a common complaint of wives with AS husbands that he never shows any sexual interest in her. There has been a recent move for Aspies with these type of issues with sex (especially those relating fear of intimacy and sex repulsion but others as well who have decided sex is all too much bother) to declare that they are asexual. It's perfectly possible they are of course. However, it's an asexuality caused by the AS rather than the type of asexuality an asexual neurotypical will have. Functionally they might seem to give the same result but the mechanism the by which result has been arrived at (the "model" of asexuality if you will) is very different and this tends to lead to No True Scotsman style arguments and, ultimately, a schism between the Aspies and the neurotypicals.

The sad fact is that, unless you're lucky enough to have an exceptionally mild case, everything about you will be affected and defined by the AS and the limits it imposes on you whether you realise and accept it or not (which is NOT to say that everyone with AS is the same ). Looking back I realised it happened to me and I didn't even know I had it (although I knew something was wrong with me, I suspected one of the forms of schizophrenia for which AS was often mistaken although when I persuaded by parents to take me to a child psychiatrist she said I was fine, this was couple of decade prior to AS being an acknowledged diagnosis) for the vast majority of my life.

The page possibly should also mention the frighteningly high levels of depression and suicide among Aspies compared to neurotypicals (see http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/278678.php for levels of suicidal ideation and Attwood "Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome" pages 140 to 142 for a discussion of depression rates, in reviewing the literature he says that about 1 in 3 will experience at least 1 episode of clincal depression in their life, other researchers have estimates as high as 65%).

You say you were diagnosed with it late: In your 30s. In 1990, when I was 42, my youngest son, who was then ten, had tremendous difficulty socializing in school, so my wife and I took him to a psychiatrist. The shrink said that our son had Aspergers, and described the classic symptoms. My wife and I looked at each other, and said, almost in chorus, that he was describing me. It runs in my father's family: My father had it, his father probably had it, my youngest son has it, my twin brother has it, his daughter has it quite severely.

One effect it has had on me is that I have considerable difficulty in keeping a job — the longest I have ever worked in one place is five years. Yet I am a truly first-rate computer programmer. (Aspies tend to be either very good or very bad at mathematics — I'm one of the ones who is very good at it.) To go along with my difficulty in keeping a job, I positively dread going on job interviews, because I am so bad at things such as reading people — and now that I am in my 60s, age discrimination has made it far more difficult to find a job.

I can manage. I have gained the skills and experience to "fake it," more or less.

My real life-line has been my wife. We have been married for 42 years, and she has supported me throughout our time together. I literally could not get along without her. Most surprising of all, she loves me even when I am not at all lovable. I thank God daily for her.

Folks, this is not a forum for ASD discussion.

Septimus, your words hold no water when you didn't even erase a pure non sequitur.

^ I agree wholeheartedly. Would like to add that I myself find it hard to write down because my 'inner worlds' tend to expand on all 3 spatial axies and the timeline in both directions simultaneously, so where do I start, and then when I have a starting point a lot of writing will actually be history to the actual characters.

Can we stop using the term "Aspie" please? Its disgusting and exclusive. Tyvm.

Also, most of the "representative quotes" have problems.

For instance, society has far more irrational issues than whatever it thinks of me (or us), and claiming not to have an accent isn't something only aspies do. Just about every allistic you'll meet feels that way about their own accent, that they don't have one while everyone else does.

Please do not use this discussion page for general ASD discussion. Take It to the Forums instead.

I could say the same about you and PDL Septimus. Where in the literal hell have you been to delete his post? It has literally nothing to do with the actual page, but you still let it go on. Maybe not be a hypocrite? If you're going to let PDL run his mouth about irrelevant Nazis, you might as well let the floodgates open. I'd prefer it if you just nuked PDL's remarks, but eh. Do whichever. If you get to do what you like, so do I.

Not sure that's a typo so much as an alternate spelling.

Both are acceptable terms for this thing.

It is a good article, isn't it?

That is a condescending comment, isn't it?

Same. I also have AS, and lying comes very naturally to me.

...How do we know that wasn't a lie?

DUN DUN DUN.

Same here. I have a lot of practice lying to my mom since she yells a lot (something she was told to do when I was diagnosed with ADHD.) Now they think I have AS which is connected to ADHD in some way.

Lying is traumatic to me. I am terrible at it, and hate people who lie.

I have Asperger's Syndrome, and all of these ring true to me except for "difficulty lying".

Some people said it well, maybe without knowing it, but the thing is: an aspie CAN lie. White lies and real ones. But. First, he must learn to do it. This comes with time and when you go through a lot. And second, he still usually doesn't like to do it. But still. An aspie can lie, he must just learn to. It's "normal" to be able to learn to if you're old enough. After all, it is a logical thing if you understand the why and many other things. It's like reading body language: an aspie can do it, but it will be conscious analysis instead of automatic, and he will have to learn to do it.

Here is one of the main issues I have with Aspie characterisations: lying. It isn't that we cannot lie, it is that because we are very literal, we take everything that is said to us at face value; truth, lies, sarcasm, all of it. What it means when it comes from us is that while we are not good at lying in a pinch, we are good at making up a story or obscuring the truth, or even omitting it altogether.

Personally, I like people to tell me the truth at all times, as I prefer to tell others the truth as well. A 'treat others as you would want to be treated' kind of mindset.

Methinks that this discussion tab is not the ideal place for discussing autism. May I suggest this forum topic instead?

As for me, I find it very difficult to straight up lie to someone, unless I'm telling a joke, I however am quite capable of and quite enjoy properly wording what I say into deceptive truths. My basic philosophy when being asked to tell the truth is "Lie to you I did not. Just because you misinterpreted what I said does not make what I told you a lie and although what I said was true neither does it make it 100% accurate. It is your fault if you never bothered analyze what I said through different interpretations and meanings and think on their possible implications." Also doubles as the excuse I give when someone feels I lied to them.

I'm a terrible liar. Obviously, technically I can tell a mistruth. But when I do, it feels like I'm wearing a coat two sizes too big and it's pretty much transparent. Sometimes I can use double meanings so as to not hurt somebody's feelings, but that takes some thinking out.

I'm afraid one of my lines even now is "Do you want the truth, or the lie that makes you feel better?" On the plus side, that does tend to make people laugh.

If it's not going to hurt somebody's feelings, I just don't bother.

Filed a request here. For future reference, edits on locked pages are requested there.

You never see anyone get described as "person with green eyes", "a person with blue eyes", "someone who has red or brown hair"…

Personally, I, having been diagnosed with AS, agree, i am much too cripplingly shy the majority of the time to use my ridiculous vocabulary, which, by the way i gained by reading to escape from all the bullies in my life. However, when in places i know are safe and around people i trust, or just online, i make full use of it in conversation just like i alwaus do din my mind.

Agreed. I also have AS, and have been writing since I could read and can have a pretty colourful vocabulary when I want (even though I pretty much talk like any other kid my age does, using "like" and "bro" a lot). Never read any books from the POV of someone else who has it (mainly because I'm not very big on novels in general), but I can sort of imagine it and it'd bug me a lot.

Seriously. We have to have a place to add Abed from Community.

[deleted]

Deleted as possibly inappropriate.

Chris dude, a simple yes or no would have done.

No way. An in-depth examination of a disorder is just nowhere near what we are here for. All that sounds like it might be useful in a place where people are looking for that sort of thing. Just not here.

Maby instead we could have a link to Wrong Planet somewhere on the page, so people can tell their tales there.

Huh. Well, whether it's what you're here for or not, the page as it stands now is pretty much THE best "not just a clinical note sheet" description of the actual experience of being on the spectrum I've ever encountered. Keep it, it's wonderful. >.>

...Narcissism isn't a disability. I don't see how any professional doctor could get them confused. Anyway, it's also generally not about disliking interacting with people/being antisocial as such, as most autistic want experiences and to take part in the world, it's about not being able to connect in the head how to initiate or structure social contacts, and also extreme (but usually not shown in full) awkwardness/tension and mental exhaustion when having to fixate on someone else for prolonged periods. Greater additional problems can arise from unbelievably inefficient treatment approaches and overmedication of medicines developed for neurotypical brains, but isn't a fundamental definition as such.

Still, I was classified as autistic not as Aspergers, even before it merged into the main diagnosis this year (effectively making Aspergers an outdated term to use for the page title btw).

So would switching the page title to autism be better?

I meant narcissisitic personality disorder. Here is the page I read about the connection between npd and aspergers syndrome. Aspergers syndrome is also mentioned on wikipedia, in the differential diagnosis section for schizoid personality disorder. Though now that I think about it the avoidant personality disorder probably has more in common than the schizoid.

Well, new information is appreciated, although the very limited text available on the linked page the author may or may not do a couple of downright dangerous "outsider looking in" assumptions, as the blurb text doesn't deal with that autism has plenty of severe diagnosis criteria beyond the social ones, and different autistic, who very much did have extremely visible multiple general dysfunctions since near-infancy, have very different personalities beyond the diagnosis, and ways of dealing with the condition.

Still, the author likely goes into better specifics inside the book, and might very well have a point about some misdiagnoses due to some thin surface layer overlap in this area, but things are not nearly as convenient and trivial as the book summary writer makes them.

There already is a seperate page for high-functioning autism. The last time I looked at it, the page pretty much said most autistic people have high functioning autism and that the category was only made to help psychiatrists with the psychiatrist, parent, child relationship.

"..Narcissism isn't a disability. Autism is more like fifty disabilities packed into one. I don't see how any professional doctor could get them confused."

The vast majority of my peers vocally assumed that my vocabulary, grades, and tendency to violate social norms reflected nothing except an oversized ego, and pretty much every child psychiatrist I ever saw had to, effectively, be dragged kicking and screaming away from the assumption that my being bullied was because I was "just a brat." Both narcissists and people on the spectrum tend to behave in ways that others find offensive, and many people on the spectrum are intellectually or artistically gifted and unapologetic about it, which an unreasonably unsympathetic listener could easily mistake for self-aggrandizement. I can see why a person with an arrogant disregard for what's actually going on in the minds of sufficiently "other" others wouldn't be interested in drawing this distinction.

No, you're not alone about it. It plays into misconceptions. In fact, I think certain partso f the page itself plays into misconceptions, which is why I made my own attempt with the list, but again I'm supposed to be "fully" autistic, so I'm not sure how much it differs.

Would anyone object if I removed the quote? The more I see it the more it gets on my tits. I still don't see how it's adding anything informative to the page.