Sarah1281
From headscratcher page:
- I'm annoyed that Naruto hasn't given Sasuke a full blown What the Hell, Hero? speech to counter Sasuke's rants. I mean think about it, Sasuke lectures Naruto about not knowing anything on account of never having any family, but Naruto doesn't respond with, "You know what, you're right- I never had a family. I have absolutely no idea what it feels like to lose them because I never had the blessing of having a family in the first place. And you know what else, I'd trade places with you in a heartbeat if I could! While I had to deal with most of the village wishing I would just disappear, you had a mother's love! You act like you're the only one who's ever known pain, at least you had a family at one point! So how about it? Let's trade places! You can be the Jinchuriki of the Nine Tailed Fox, hated for your very existence by everyone around you with no family to protect or raise you, and I can be the brat born to a noble clan who has to bear the pain of losing that family in a single night! That's no more unreasonable than your demands! You think it's easy being alone? Go on, walk a mile in my shoes!"
- Well, bein fair this could probably be the counter argument: Yes, I had a mother, a Father, a brother whom I loved more than life itself, an entire Clan old and Proud and Happy. A happy childhood as you could ask. And one day when I was 7 I came to my Family Clan to find every single one of them Dead. Every one I knew and loved killed, their blood soaking the ground and In my house, the corpses of my parents and their Killer, my brother. He told me He never loved me, that he did it to test His Powers. And you know what? He show it to me. Remember Tsukuyomi? The Genjutsu that left our sensei in coma for a month?. Every single second, every single action, every single death, over and over and over again for 72 hours. Twice. I can tell you with explicit detail how Uncle Teyaki bleed to dead, How aunt Uruchi was burned alive. How my cousins where slaughtered like animals, the last look of My mother before the sword cut her troath. Each one as if it was seconds ago. He told me to Hate him, to loathe Him. And you know what? I did, I despised him to the very bone, I make my life to destroy him and in the end... he loved me. He died by my hand and Loved me More than his life, than his dreams, loved me so fiercely to became a monster and put the world in danger. He was manipulated, brutalized by the Village you so dearly love to do his dirty work. You only [[Canon faced]] solitud, loneliness, hateful looks but you still got the Sandaime, The Anbu to protect you, The Ichiraku ramen bar, Iruka and your "legacy". You have never faced the agony of betrayal, the hell of losing everything precious person, the pure torture of witnessing impotent your world be destroyed, to know your Clan was despised by the very Village they created, to feel a hate so profound that destroy your soul. So never compare My suffering with you paltry winning and excuse of a sad childhood. You are just a pathetic little boy crying because somebody doesn't like him and obsesive in making his "dream" come true and who, remind you, was going to let his Demon free because he couldn't find a answer to an absurd abstract question. So stop taking the high ground you hypocrite.
- Oh you faced betrayal by a person dear to you? oh were have I head that before? my missin nin friend who tried to kill me several times now only because I became a little stronger than you. Oh your dear one killed other precious people of yours? you mean like you almost did to Sakura? how you wanted to do that to Kakashi, and the whole village out of completely insane reasons? Oh the elders order the attack on the Uchiha, the Uchiha were the victims right? you know because we were suppose just let them throw a civil war right, and how you want to kill all of my friends because 4 people, two of which are already dead gave the order to kill your clan, I mean it's not like Madara "Uchiha" made the Kyubi kill my parents with no good reasons other than to gain power, and how he tried to kill me literally 1 MINUTE after I was born. All my life being an outcast, most of that time not even knowing why, even after you were left alone people still admired you, all the girls were after you and you were inherently good at this whole ninja stuff, while I had the blessing of being shun and hated by adults and being a failure since part of my chakra was being used to contain the demon inside me and because no one gave me any extra training outside of school like your dad or your brother did, at least I f***ing appreciate the good stuff you ungrateful backstabber. And don't make me bring Gaara in here to curb stomp you on this discussion. We were hated and worked to be accepted, you were praised and idolized and threw all that away for getting power "faster".
- A few things...when did Sasuke want to kill Naruto only because he was stronger than himself? Sasuke's already been the objective of Mind Rape two times, he had to watch helplessy as his brother killed their clanmembers in cold blood while telling him how weak and pathetic he is. Kind of makes sense that he wants to get stronger to kill this Complete Monster of a brother. But wait...said brother was actually Good All Along and only wanted to protect him. That's harsh. Naruto and Gaara had to face loneliness, solitude and hatred, but their families (in Naruto's case non-existent and in Gaara's case hatred and fear) were not killed by their most beloved person. Since non of this happened to me I can't really tell which is worse, but Sasuke had someone he could hate so much to abandon his comrades and village to gain power from Orochimaru and when it turned out that Danzo and the village elders of Konoha made his brother go through hell and kill almost everybody of his clan Sasuke had someone new to hate and I hardly blame him for it. Naruto at one point had some precious people he wanted to protect and didn't have anybody specific to hate as a reason to obtain power. Gaara didn't have anybody specific to hate (or love, save for Yashamaru who tried to kill him out of hatred) either, but killed some random surrendering shinobi anyway. Like I said nothing of this happened to me so I can't really compare this three cases and say which is worse. That Sasuke wants to kill everyone in Konoha is not justified, although he is pretty much batshit crazy at this point, but I can't really picture Sasuke killing some innocent woman and her baby. It also annoys me that people say Sasuke is a Canon Sue or a God-Mode Sue while he's clearly suffering badly from the Worf Effect. In my opinion Naruto himself would qualify much better. And one last thing at the people who say that Sasuke is Too Dumb to Live or Completely Missing The Point regarding Itachi's sacrifice: Madara does call him out on this, but Sasuke says that Itachi cared for him more than he did for his own life, his clan and Konoha so Sasuke states that he feels the same way for his beloved brother too and therefore he wants to destroy Konoha. Insane and kind of selfish? Yes it is, but since he had to go through so much pain and hell it's not entirely unjustified. Sasuke will always be my favourite character next to Naruto and I'd say that people who want Naruto to change his mind and kill Sasuke already are Completely Missing The Point of the show (or maybe they just hate Sasuke that much). Sasuke's a Jerkass Woobie and a great and also sad character for me and nothing will change my view.
- First of all what are you talking about? this is not a Sakuke deserves no sympathy, but comparing him to Naruto, all in all my point still stands, Naruto and Gaara were hated by the adults and avoided a lot by the other kids and were able to rise up, while adults pitied Sasuke (since only Itachi and the elders knew the Uchihas were planning a civil war) and the other kids admire him, the girls even lusted after him, meaning he had a lot of good things, and he had a good and famous guy as his sensei, there was also the possibility of at least thinking of asking Jiraiya if he would train him too (he probably would had said no but he didn't knew that, in fact he's a genius in his mind if Naruto was taken why not him) and he abandons and betrays all those people at the first chance of gaining power faster it's not like he ever though he wasn't gonna get that strong eventually, just that with Orochimaru and his methods (enhancing drugs, cursed mark, etc.) he was gonna get it quicker, I mean damn no appreciation, he already had what Naruto and Gaara wanted (when they got it they even changed for the better) and yet still threw it away. Also 2 things, Sasuke used the Chidori in his first fight with Naruto (you know that technique he saw Kakashi go through Haku, the sake one he used to hurt and spill Gaara's blood even when he had a thick barrier of sand) just because Naruto was stronger than him at the moment after having beaten Gaara and learned the Rasengan. And later when he though of killing Naruto to prove he was stronger and to get the Mangekyo Sharingan (true he backed out in the end, but he tried and was going to). Finally I actually can see Sasuke killing innocent people, I mean he used Karin (who was his fangirl and saved his life before and who he actually came to consider important to him) as a human shield and later tried to kill SAKURA (you know the girl who almost threw her whole life to be with him, and countless other stuff) yeah there is a possibility he gets his soul saved, but right now his seat in hell awaits him.
- Did you even read my text? Have you even seen the anime/manga? Sasuke hates his Fangirls and it's clear that he doesn't want any pity. And the other students admired him for a good reason. Because he had to work his ass off to become the best genin. Also Naruto wasn't avoided by the other children. He was friends with Shikamaru, Chouji and Kiba. Sasuke had a good and famous guy as his sensei? Kakashi was the sensei of Team 7 and not Sasuke's personal teacher. He only trained him before the Chunin-exames (and for a good reason, because of crazy Gaara.) and Naruto had Jiraya. Sasuke went to Orochimaru, because he was curb-stomped and mind raped by Itachi and saw that dead-last Naruto has become really strong and finally got the crap beaten out of him by the Sound Four. He simply thought that he would never be able to kill his older brother if he stayed in Konoha. It's true that Sasuke had the things Naruto wanted,(well except for the slaughtering of his whole family by his older brother) but did you miss the whole revenge thing I've written? Sasuke shouldn't have tried to use his Chidori, but he only tried to use it after he saw that Naruto prepared his Rasengarn. Impaling Karin and trying to murder Sakura is his Moral Event Horizon, but after all he's been through I can't put him into Complete Monster territory. He's just a tragic Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds who snapped after the world put him through too much shit.
- First of all what are you talking about? this is not a Sakuke deserves no sympathy, but comparing him to Naruto, all in all my point still stands, Naruto and Gaara were hated by the adults and avoided a lot by the other kids and were able to rise up, while adults pitied Sasuke (since only Itachi and the elders knew the Uchihas were planning a civil war) and the other kids admire him, the girls even lusted after him, meaning he had a lot of good things, and he had a good and famous guy as his sensei, there was also the possibility of at least thinking of asking Jiraiya if he would train him too (he probably would had said no but he didn't knew that, in fact he's a genius in his mind if Naruto was taken why not him) and he abandons and betrays all those people at the first chance of gaining power faster it's not like he ever though he wasn't gonna get that strong eventually, just that with Orochimaru and his methods (enhancing drugs, cursed mark, etc.) he was gonna get it quicker, I mean damn no appreciation, he already had what Naruto and Gaara wanted (when they got it they even changed for the better) and yet still threw it away. Also 2 things, Sasuke used the Chidori in his first fight with Naruto (you know that technique he saw Kakashi go through Haku, the sake one he used to hurt and spill Gaara's blood even when he had a thick barrier of sand) just because Naruto was stronger than him at the moment after having beaten Gaara and learned the Rasengan. And later when he though of killing Naruto to prove he was stronger and to get the Mangekyo Sharingan (true he backed out in the end, but he tried and was going to). Finally I actually can see Sasuke killing innocent people, I mean he used Karin (who was his fangirl and saved his life before and who he actually came to consider important to him) as a human shield and later tried to kill SAKURA (you know the girl who almost threw her whole life to be with him, and countless other stuff) yeah there is a possibility he gets his soul saved, but right now his seat in hell awaits him.
- A few things...when did Sasuke want to kill Naruto only because he was stronger than himself? Sasuke's already been the objective of Mind Rape two times, he had to watch helplessy as his brother killed their clanmembers in cold blood while telling him how weak and pathetic he is. Kind of makes sense that he wants to get stronger to kill this Complete Monster of a brother. But wait...said brother was actually Good All Along and only wanted to protect him. That's harsh. Naruto and Gaara had to face loneliness, solitude and hatred, but their families (in Naruto's case non-existent and in Gaara's case hatred and fear) were not killed by their most beloved person. Since non of this happened to me I can't really tell which is worse, but Sasuke had someone he could hate so much to abandon his comrades and village to gain power from Orochimaru and when it turned out that Danzo and the village elders of Konoha made his brother go through hell and kill almost everybody of his clan Sasuke had someone new to hate and I hardly blame him for it. Naruto at one point had some precious people he wanted to protect and didn't have anybody specific to hate as a reason to obtain power. Gaara didn't have anybody specific to hate (or love, save for Yashamaru who tried to kill him out of hatred) either, but killed some random surrendering shinobi anyway. Like I said nothing of this happened to me so I can't really compare this three cases and say which is worse. That Sasuke wants to kill everyone in Konoha is not justified, although he is pretty much batshit crazy at this point, but I can't really picture Sasuke killing some innocent woman and her baby. It also annoys me that people say Sasuke is a Canon Sue or a God-Mode Sue while he's clearly suffering badly from the Worf Effect. In my opinion Naruto himself would qualify much better. And one last thing at the people who say that Sasuke is Too Dumb to Live or Completely Missing The Point regarding Itachi's sacrifice: Madara does call him out on this, but Sasuke says that Itachi cared for him more than he did for his own life, his clan and Konoha so Sasuke states that he feels the same way for his beloved brother too and therefore he wants to destroy Konoha. Insane and kind of selfish? Yes it is, but since he had to go through so much pain and hell it's not entirely unjustified. Sasuke will always be my favourite character next to Naruto and I'd say that people who want Naruto to change his mind and kill Sasuke already are Completely Missing The Point of the show (or maybe they just hate Sasuke that much). Sasuke's a Jerkass Woobie and a great and also sad character for me and nothing will change my view.
- ok hear me clearly this time this isn't a sasuke deserves no sympathy thing, it's a Sasuke compared to Naruto, the fact that Naruto went through more than Sasuke yet he didn't become a backstabber. But if you want, fine. First of all Sasuke has been stated many times that he's a genius, in fact in the databooks Kakashi states that it's boring teaching Sasuke because he learns so quickly, he didn't bust his ass that much specially not nearly as the other simply because that's what being a Genius means. Sasuke didn't hate his fangirls he just didn't care and that wasn't my point my point was that he had a better time than Naruto or Gaara after the whole massacre and tsukuyomi, he just was so focus on revenge he never stopped and appreciated what he had (Naruto kept being hated until some time after the series started, and even after his very loved uncle was send by his father to kill him, Gaara still continued to be hated and assassins were still being sent as oppose to the popular, admired by peers and adults Sasuke). Naruto never had parents then Iruka came along and he appreciated, the whole friends thing has been addressed in a thread above but when he got a real friend he came to see as a brother he appreciated. Second, the whole race mission was filler so Sasuke had never seen the Rasengan (a knockout move: damages the body if hits) when he tried to use Chidori (a killing move: pierces the body if it hits) on Naruto on the rooftop, what if he really was stronger than Naruto and Naruto didn't had the rasengan?. Next I never said that Kakashi was only Sasuke's sensei, but for someone who wanted power his team got the best Jonin teacher, someone we learn it's famous in the first arc and from all the comments afterwards, heck even Kakashi tells him that everyone he cared about is dead and he's not crazy looking to break every taboo he comes across to get revenge on the people that killed them. It's awful what happen to Sasuke, there is no doubt in that, but he only has himself to blame because he's the one who take things to the extreme, why break start a fight with Naruto only because your brother was more interested in him, he never said he was more interested because he was more powerful than you and you know he can curb stop him? why leave after being defeated by 4 people, they attacked you all at the same time and they're all older than you, why were you so quick to believe you really could had become strong faster in that situation, and still why did you never thought of asking Naruto's new teacher who made him so strong so quick. And you may not be able but I can put him on [1] territory after the stabbing of Karin simply because nothing had happen to him to stop caring for his teammates (Taka), one second he likes them after saving him and helping him get Killer Bee another second he sacrifice all of them to get what he wants even after they all helped him and saved him again. In the end the point of the message is how you can let go of the hate and try to do something positive, or be consumed by it to the point of doing things just for the Evilz.
- Seriously, pay a little attention to the manga. Who are you to say that Naruto had to go through more than Sasuke? He was alone from the start and Sasuke lost everything he loved (and thanks to Itachi's Tsukuyomi saw all of it) in one night. You claim that one thing is worse while you don't have a clue how something like that is. Naruto never had a reason to backstab anyone and why would he? He wants to protect Konoha and his precious people there so it wouldn't make any sense to leave for power. He doesn't have anyone to avenge anyway, but Sasuke does. And did you miss that Sasuke didn't become jealous of Naruto after the later beat Gaara until Itachi came, curb-stomped and mind raped him again? It's understandable that he's pissed about that. And Naruto did kill people with his Rasengarn and he activated it first. After the Sound Four defeated him they told him that he would never be able to obtain enough power if he stayed in Konoha and that Orochimaru could teach him how to use the Curse Seal more efficiently. He wanted to kill Itachi as fast as possible. Naruto had no reason at all to do these things. Sasuke is a genius and hasn't much trouble learning things, but do you really think that he only got this strong because he's a genius and didn't work hard at all? Sacrificing his teammates after he not long ago did everything he could do to save them almost borders on [2], but I guess after gaining Mangekyou Sharingan and being so close to the guy who ordered the killing of his family by his brother he lost all the little sanity he had and only thinks about revenge.
- To the Sasuke-hater, Im going to go an extra mile here and just say that you just don't get what Torture is or what it can do to the mind and spirit of a person, let alone a 7 year old child. Otherwise you wouldn't be saying that Naruto being alone was worse that having your entire family slaughtered in front of you for 3 straight days. And Tsukuyomi is the greatest torture technique in the Verse, leaving Kakashi in full sharingan in coma for a month. What do you think it did to Sasuke when he was a brat and then when he was twelve?. But maybe Im saying this because Im a psychologist and had seen what childhood traumas can do to a person, but what Itachi did to Sasuke is the worst act of Mind Rape I have ever see in fiction, bar none. Also, that's a pain that Naruto is incapable of comprehend let alone acope in anyway as "healthy" as Sasuke and you know why I say this?, because he was going to liberate the Kyubi because a guy killed his teacher offscreen, fake killed Hinata and he didn't know how to make world peace. I mean, seriously, he was going to liberate the greatest bijuu in the demolished Village for a wangst and only stopped because the timely Deus ex Machina. And this pissed me off, the entire whitewashing of all the wrongs of Naruto and demonization of everyone else, (remember his first act in team 7, A.K.A assault and kidnap of Sasuke and attempt impersonating/seducing/abuse of Sakura-the Haku incident and soon ). Also, there is a difference between shallow fans (who never appeared in the manga after one issue) and having people who love you. Sasuke only had empty words of praise and probably six 8-12 year old fans, while Naruto had the Sandaime, Iruka, Teuchi and Ayame and yes, this is beyond good of what Sasuke ever got. Finally, Sasuke was never a traitor, he said it in his first appearance: he was loyal to his Clan. Why would sacrifice his (memory) most precious people and his duty for an annoying orange little shit (before Time Skip Naruto was that annoying) and a pink fangirl. It would be like 6 year old Konohamaru demanding Naruto forsake his dream of being Hokage to make him happy. Yes, he is as of know Ax-Crazy and holding the Villain Ball and probably retarded by a combination of Orochimaru drugs and Itachi/Madara making him his little bitch, but he is hardly the absolute monster (pre shippuden) that you are trying to make him or Naruto the absolute manly man Messiah most fans and fics wank constantly.
- *sigh* Ok and I repeat myself yet again, this was never a Sasuke deserves no sympathy thing, and to you who call me a Sasuke hater, I actually like Sasuke a lot more than Naruto (I barely like Naruto at all), due he started getting a little annoying by getting way over his head going to the summit, but I digress. Like I said, Sasuke is bad, the author's plan was that to make him evil, there wouldn't be so many of us wondering what is gonna happen ( Redemption Equal Death?, all part of his plan?, an unprecedented twist ending?) my point is that Sasuke has already reached the level were he has left 2 of current team mates to die (suigetsu and jugo) and almost killed 2 in cold blood (karin and sakura) plus he wants everyone to feel the same suffering that he did he is way over his head if he thinks no one has ever suffered more than him. Mr. Phycologist (on an unrelated note if that's the worst scene of torture you've seen in anime you need to watch more of it), do you know what a child being hated for no reason (as far as he knows) since he can remember do to him? I don't have the slightest idea why your arguments seem to be attacks on me and assuming my views with no evidence, I've never undermined torture, I mean it's torture, it's the best definition of an evil act that I could think of right now. My arguments have been of how Sasuke is shown to have overreacted, how he has wrapped his mind in a selfish coat, thinking that no one has suffered more or at least close to the same amount as him, having your mom hate you, your dad hate you and try to constantly assassinate you, your only loved person trying to kill you (the same thing sasuke though Itachi wanted) and telling you before he dies that he also always hated you and the entire village you live in hating you even if you try to be nice (something that the Naruto didn't thought off for a while) Gaara became a vicious psycopath because he lived bad thing after bad thing, then he tried to try a different aproact that seemed to have worked. The point is that there were good things happening to Sasuke, no matter how you try to see it, having people cheer for you is a good thing, having friends is a good thing, having team mates that saved you time and time again is a good thing, Sasuke does overreacts (the whole fight with Naruto on the rooftop) and is impatient (fresh out of the academy and trying to beat down a jonin) to the point where he doesn't think straight or of all the other possibilities (again, straight to Orochimaru betraying the village instead of at least asking Jiraiya or Tsunade who are on the same level as him) and this things have scalated to the point were he's close to a complete monster in shippuden (kinda the whole reason why I like him, saying this before you go on accusing me of complaining about a character I don't like). Again this was all to point out that different characters have very harsh situations, not the same but none the less bad and at times worst (gaara) the point is how you deal with them, and you shouldn't try to justify them because of it. Reminds me of the House D.M. episode "acceptance" where he points out, that a lot of people have rage attacks for the same reasons or more reason than the guy in question but they never killed anybody. One last thing, since none of us have experienced this, who are you to say Sasuke had to go through more than Naruto, *nod* it works both ways.
- Hey, you ignored my answer to you. It's the one before Mr. Psychology.^^
- Ok here it is, at the beggining the topic (that I didn't even started, my first comment was the one you replied to, that is if its been the same person all those times) it was that at the valley of the end, the whole speech Sasuke gave Naruto, Naruto could had made a comeback, because it was like the slave boy with a racist master calling out the sex slave boy, not the same experiences but both were bad none the less (all your family killed by your brother/never having a family and being hated by 80% of the people around you) it wasn't a Sasuke is the biggest prick on earth or anything like that. The deal with Sasuke is the Draco in Leather Pants effect. I like him because he chooses to be bad and he accepts he can't just say "my family was killed" and expect everyone to forgive him like that (...well except Naruto but he was hit on the head one too many times by Iruka and Sakura), Neji and Gaara have already called him out on it (indirectly) he chooses to be bad by this point, like in the manga Trigun, twin brothers, one choose to never kill a human in his whole life no matter what, the other almost killed them all, same traumatic experiences but very different ways to deal with them. Even so I agree with you on the Character Derailment, he was told the elders ordered the massacre, then the killer bee incident in which he thinks about how much he likes his new teammates, then right after that the kage summit and now he doesn't give a rat's ass about them and personally almost killing one of them with nothing happening in between those 2 things, which was the point were I wanted to ask confused to kishimoto how is he suppose to redeem himself at the end if you're turning him into a complete Orochimaru? (the protagonist wants him to, so it's gonna happen) not to mention the whole exaggeration of killing everyone in the leaf village (unless it's all part of his plan) but I digress, case and point Sasuke has already gone pass the point of using tsukuyomi and Itachi as an excuse, he's assisting the man who declared war on all the Nations, hes an full fledged antagonist lets let him have his moment.
- Oh you faced betrayal by a person dear to you? oh were have I head that before? my missin nin friend who tried to kill me several times now only because I became a little stronger than you. Oh your dear one killed other precious people of yours? you mean like you almost did to Sakura? how you wanted to do that to Kakashi, and the whole village out of completely insane reasons? Oh the elders order the attack on the Uchiha, the Uchiha were the victims right? you know because we were suppose just let them throw a civil war right, and how you want to kill all of my friends because 4 people, two of which are already dead gave the order to kill your clan, I mean it's not like Madara "Uchiha" made the Kyubi kill my parents with no good reasons other than to gain power, and how he tried to kill me literally 1 MINUTE after I was born. All my life being an outcast, most of that time not even knowing why, even after you were left alone people still admired you, all the girls were after you and you were inherently good at this whole ninja stuff, while I had the blessing of being shun and hated by adults and being a failure since part of my chakra was being used to contain the demon inside me and because no one gave me any extra training outside of school like your dad or your brother did, at least I f***ing appreciate the good stuff you ungrateful backstabber. And don't make me bring Gaara in here to curb stomp you on this discussion. We were hated and worked to be accepted, you were praised and idolized and threw all that away for getting power "faster".
- Okay, from Mr. Psychologist: 1.- Im going to state that, yes Sasuke did suffer more than Naruto and going by canon (not the Fan Wank), Naruto was only alone and silently hated; Sasuke got his entire Family slaughtered, Mind Fuck beyond belief twice and brutally betrayed, then betrayed again by: His brother, his Mentor, his home Village and the Big Bad. 2.- Positive reinforcement doesn't work that way, at all. 3.- Also the "You didn't experience, can't critice it/understand it" its not an actual argument tool and had the same weight as Let's See YOU Do Better!. I have never fell out of my bycicle and broken my arm but I can say without prepotence that being buried alive would be far more traumatic. And Im not saying he should be forgiven just because he suffered more, but going to the original post, Naruto had no ground to call him on anything. Hell, he is doing the exact same thing Naruto does and preach: protecting his precious people, in this case the memory of his Family and Itachi. Naruto also lost it by nearly the same reasons but more petty than Sasuke and it nearly killed the entire Village and his soul and at difference of Sasuke, he had only loving mentors, allies and the spirits of his parents telling him how much they love him (while Sasuke got child silly fangirls, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Itachi and Madara). How can Naruto say he understand Sasuke pain with an straight face?. Also just becasue his family was against a goverment (who was bias to them) shouldn't make Sasuke love them less or be less loyal. Konoha is often put as some Purity Sue when this discussion arouse even when they are [[{{Hypocrite bashed by how they treath Naruto at the same time]]. Also he declared war to the Nations... and? Seriously, they are Military Villages who create Hitman by hire an had made 3 world wars already; they are not an innocent cuddly civilians to feel pity for them and besides, he hasn't declared the war, he only doesn't give a damn about them; in the same way that its absurd to accuse Sasuke of Monster for attacking Killer Bee, a Ninja from a previous antagonist enemy of Konoha. Also, how can we move this posts to the discussion page to avoid taking more space from the Headscratchers.
- Well, bein fair this could probably be the counter argument: Yes, I had a mother, a Father, a brother whom I loved more than life itself, an entire Clan old and Proud and Happy. A happy childhood as you could ask. And one day when I was 7 I came to my Family Clan to find every single one of them Dead. Every one I knew and loved killed, their blood soaking the ground and In my house, the corpses of my parents and their Killer, my brother. He told me He never loved me, that he did it to test His Powers. And you know what? He show it to me. Remember Tsukuyomi? The Genjutsu that left our sensei in coma for a month?. Every single second, every single action, every single death, over and over and over again for 72 hours. Twice. I can tell you with explicit detail how Uncle Teyaki bleed to dead, How aunt Uruchi was burned alive. How my cousins where slaughtered like animals, the last look of My mother before the sword cut her troath. Each one as if it was seconds ago. He told me to Hate him, to loathe Him. And you know what? I did, I despised him to the very bone, I make my life to destroy him and in the end... he loved me. He died by my hand and Loved me More than his life, than his dreams, loved me so fiercely to became a monster and put the world in danger. He was manipulated, brutalized by the Village you so dearly love to do his dirty work. You only [[Canon faced]] solitud, loneliness, hateful looks but you still got the Sandaime, The Anbu to protect you, The Ichiraku ramen bar, Iruka and your "legacy". You have never faced the agony of betrayal, the hell of losing everything precious person, the pure torture of witnessing impotent your world be destroyed, to know your Clan was despised by the very Village they created, to feel a hate so profound that destroy your soul. So never compare My suffering with you paltry winning and excuse of a sad childhood. You are just a pathetic little boy crying because somebody doesn't like him and obsesive in making his "dream" come true and who, remind you, was going to let his Demon free because he couldn't find a answer to an absurd abstract question. So stop taking the high ground you hypocrite.
Let me preface this by saying that I adore both Sasuke and Naruto and if the series doesn't end with Naruto becoming Hokage with Sasuke back in Konoha and dealing with his issues, I'll be very upset no matter how unlikely this seems.
Personally, I don't see why it matters who suffered more or if you can even really objectively judge since they're so different. They both went through horrible, terrible experiences no one should have to go through.
I think Sasuke wouldn't be satisfied that ANYONE knew what he was going through unless they suffered through the exact same situation where their clan helped found a village, was oppressed since the start (according to Madara, at any rate), their clan plotted a coup, their beloved older brother killed everyone but him and told him it was because he could, got tortured, and then after giving up everything in the pursuit of vengeance finally achieved it and learned a version of the story that is probably closer to what really happened. And honestly, that's kind of a tall order. Sasuke is NEVER going to get anybody to understand what he's going through if he has such high standards. Nobody will ever be able to understand what anybody else is going through if they have to conform to it exactly like Sasuke apparently expects.
I don't think that Naruto is trying to claim that he knows exactly what Sasuke went through, just that they both suffered greatly and have some shared feelings and he's trying to understand.
As for Naruto being better off because he has precious people growing up while Sasuke didn't after the massacre...yes, obviously that made a great deal of difference in Naruto's life. Just the same, it's important to note that Naruto never stopped trying to make friends with people and Sasuke shunned everyone because he was worried he might give into the temptation about the Mangekyou Sharingan and because he didn't want to be distracted from his ultimate goal of vengeance. Maybe Sasuke wouldn't have found anyone if he tried but I think that if the single most hated person in Konoha can find a few precious people (only the Sandaime cared about him because of his parents) then so can someone significantly less hated. I'm sure Sasuke would have realized if he was being hated growing up, after all. Even Naruto picked up on it.
Naruto responded to his suffering by trying to improve his life and move past it and Sasuke refused to do so and didn't want the hurt or anger to go away. He clung to revenge while Naruto ultimately rejected it (yes, after almost releasing the Kyuubi and doing more damage than Sasuke has yet done). If Sasuke suffered more because he chose not to seek out any other precious people once his clan died then it is the result of his own choices. Saying that it doesn't count that Sasuke had people who liked him because he didn't care about them is kind of flimsy. It was an opportunity he chose not to take.
I think that Sasuke is absolutely a traitor. It doesn't matter that he didn't feel any personal loyalty to Konoha. If people weren't traitors because they didn't care that they were betraying whoever they were betraying, there would be very few traitors. Sasuke was an active-duty ninja of Konoha and as such was not allowed to run away from Konoha to go live with one of Konoha's enemies who had just killed their Hokage to boot. He was most certainly not allowed to try to destroy Konoha. Doing this as a Konoha citizen, let alone a ninja sworn to protect it, is treason. That makes him a traitor. It doesn't mean he's not capable of loyalty to his clan, just that he is a traitor to Konoha.
Konoha may be a military village but most of its citizens are, in fact, just citizens and are innocent of what the ninja get up to. Wanting to kill every single citizen of Konoha because the government of Konoha may or may not have oppressed them (like Madara wouldn't have told Sasuke this same story even if what really happened was Fugaku getting power-hungry and wanting to be Hokage himself) and so four top government leaders (two of which are already dead) ordered Itachi to kill his clan is not in any way justified and it never will be. If Sasuke chooses to kill the two elders who played a part in his family's death then I say all the power to him. That might even be justified. Wanting to kill hundreds if not thousands of innocent civilians for the secret actions of their government is monstrous and will make the death of the Uchiha as well as Itachi's sacrifice completely pointless.
Sasuke's actions regarding his family's memory really shouldn't be compared to Naruto's actions regarding his friends, I don't think. Sasuke wants to make everyone's death pointless by spreading the misery and killing more people. That is not protecting anyone. His precious people are all dead and nothing will ever bring them back. No innocent person deserves to die because Sasuke wants to feel like other people have suffered like he's suffered. Naruto doesn't try to justify the killing of innocent people in anyone's memory, he works to protect those that are still alive.
Edited by Sarah1281
To Sarah: Thank.You. you proved my point, you can like a character but you don't have to agree with them and excuse everything they do. To Mr. Psychologist: I'm actually disappointed in you, I expected a better replying argument, I was gonna point out how the whole minimizing Naruto's suffering (and mentioning things he didn't had until now, seriously he has his "parent's spirit support" just now, he's literally only known for a few hours) and exaggerating Sasuke's (by mentioning things he didn't know until now) among a LOT other things (ok more like almost everything if not everything you said) but I think Sarah1281 Curb Stomped you there enough with a very reasonable argument.
Edited by marcellX
To marcellX: The problem is that you pretty much did the same as Mr. Psychologist. You tried to minimize Sasuke's suffering and exaggerate Naruto's. I'm sorry, but the fact that Sasuke went to Orochimaru will always be understandable to me and that he wants to kill everyone in Konoha too. I don't say that it's justified I just say that it's understandable for him to act like this.
To Sarah: It's refreshing for me to see an opinion about Sasuke that isn't "he's so pretty kawai desu" or "emo-duck fag go die". I agree with you. Except for the "Sasuke went into revenge while Naruto rejected it" thing. As I have said before Naruto has no reason whatsoever to take revenge on anyone. Or should he kill people, because they ignored him or looked at him angrily? And if you mean Nagato then I'd say that the circumstances were totally different than Sasuke's. I never said that Sasuke's actions are justified I just said they're understandable.
And to Mr. Psychologist: I'm sorry, but trying to justify that Sasuke wanted to murder Killerbee and wants to kill everyone in Konoha pushes you a little in the [1] section.
Edited by kay4today
I didn't try to diminish Sasuke's suffering, but one thing is trying and another is succeeding, so I apologize if it came out that way Kay. But I agree with Sarah when she said "Sasuke went into revenge while Naruto rejected it" because Naruto did had reasons to want revenge, in fact in the waterfall his doppelganger said he really hated most people in the village and knew they were being hypocrites, in fact he did wanted revenge on them at some point. After all he's a Jinchuriki, and everyone except those in the Cloud Village last generation have falling into that.
At one point you said that Naruto had to go through more than Sasuke and that's simply not true. Sasuke's whole family was slaughtered when he was eight years old and he had to see it for three days. Naruto was ignored and got hateful glares, but he still had Iruka, the Third Hokage and the ANBU for protection. I think Sasuke had a much better reason to want revenge. And (well, at least for me) it makes you a little ignorant that you claimed Sasuke had it better because he had shallow fangirls and pity from the adults (I didn't see anyone feeling sorry for him anyway).
Well I don't remember blatantly saying Naruto had to go through more than Sasuke, and I don't feel like reading all that I wrote now, so if I did I apologize and would like to say that I don't really think that. However this discussion is about the things they had to deal with, specially the first 12 years (more in those 5 years from the Uchiha massacre to when they became Genin), and in those years Iruka was still just a teacher to Naruto and he had no idea the Third Hokage had a?n eye on him (and there's no evidence about the ANBU, which is another complain people have about the carelessness with basically an atomic human bomb). Another thing is that I didn't said Sasuke had it better, just that how Naruto went to have a more father son/big bro little relationship with him, Sasuke had something too, peoples acknowledgment and admiration (even from grownups and teachers) and was popular at school, so he had the possibilities or forming bonds with other people like Sarah pointed out. Bottom line is, at least the way I see it, Kishimoto tried to make Naruto and Sasuke have the rivals Story with different outcomes, like Knives and Vash from Trigun, and a number of other examples.
ps. Thanks everyone for this wonderful interesting devate...except you Mr. Psychologist, we're a little freaked out with your level of Dracoin Leather Pants.
Edited by marcellX
You said that Naruto didn't become a backstabber even though he went through more than Sasuke. That seems pretty blatant to me. And I say it again... Naruto always wanted friends, acknowledgement and admiration, but Sasuke only cared about revenge and didn't want to form bonds. He always wanted to avenge the murder of his clan and didn't want to be pitied or admired. And the Trigun example isn't a good one, because Vash and Knives went through the same while Naruto and Sasuke didn't. Anyway it's nice to discuss the topic of Sasuke with someone who isn't part of his large and often facepalm inducing Hate Dumb or his equally facepalm inducing fangirls and fanboys.
Ps. Yes Mr. Psychologist, trying to justify Sasuke's behavior is a bit much. His actions are understandable, but not justified.
To kay4today: Naruto didn't have anyone specific he wanted to turn his revenge on, just the people who just glaring at him all his life. He said it himself how much he hated them back until Iruka finally acknowledged him and Dark Naruto said how it irked him in a way that mass of people in Konoha were suddenly his best friends when they treated him like crap for years. But yeah, like Sarah said, he moved passed that once he found someone.
Also, though I agree with Sarah that both went through horrific experiences that no one should have to go through, I think people are underestimating Naruto's loneliness. Sasuke being mindraped and had his family killed in front of him seems obviously worse at face value, but this was an instant event that was over in a matter of hours. It'll haunt him for the rest of his life, but it ended there and it was all uphill from there until Itachi came back to town. Meanwhile, Naruto was constantly put down for 12 years. Until Iruka started paying attention to him, it's all he ever knew. Not once in all that time has anyone ever been there to tell him not to pay attention to those people, that what they say doesn't matter. I wonder whether anybody even touched him or took care of him when he was hurt or sick. Just look at how many gay people commit suicide because they aren't accepted by their peers within their 4 years of high school. Naruto had to take that without even knowing what was wrong with him for 12 years. He had never known a moment otherwise from birth. I don't say all this to downsize what Sasuke went through, because it was an incredibly traumatizing experience, but some people are acting as if what Naruto went through was nothing compared to what he did, and I honestly don't think that's true. If one is more so than the other, I honestly don't know which.
Why the uchiha clan isnt on the character page?