Ask The Tropers

I'd say it's less being "rude" and more taking a passive-aggressive swipe at those trying to be as accommodating as they can towards transfolk.

Their edit history.

I can't find anything too concerning in their recent edits, although there's a lot of rephrasing of sentences for one reason or another.

I did find their edit for So You Want to Avoid Unfortunate Implications that removed or cut huge chunks on the grounds of "Personal judgements are counter-productive".

^ Can we get a revert on that?

I see these as unnecessary chages.

That's definitely an attempt to trim the accepted language trans people use and even though it doesn't erase them, it does disrespect the nuance. I'd say it should be reverted.

I mean I already re-edited it. It's less a question of whether it should be changed now and more a question of... what else needs to be done with this user, I guess?

They should get a PM about this, at the very least. Their edit to SoYouWantTo.Avoid Unfortunate Implications should be reverted too.

I also support reverting their edit as well since an Edit War is a bad idea.

My view on the three edited terms:

• "Born female" is more concise than "assigned female at birth", though "assigned" makes more sense when specifically discussing transgender terminology.
• "Sex change surgery" is more clear than "reassignment surgery"; the fact the latter is often preceded by the word "gender" makes it misleading.
• "Male" and "identifies as male" are distinct. The former is often vague (is it male as in sex, gender, or a Y chromosome?), whereas the latter can carry implications the subject isn't "really" male.

^ "Born female", when referring to a trans man or non-binary person, has the issue of implying that they were a girl when they were born, and only became a "real" man/NB after transitioning. Most transgender people I've seen have told me that they consider themselves to have been their preferred gender from the moment they were born, it's just that they didn't always know it.

Just throwing in that "gender confirmation" may be a better term to use than either "sex change" or "gender reassignment".

^^^

• "Born X" and "assigned X at birth" are not equivalent. To say a transwoman (MTF) was "born male" implies she was a cisman but then something later happened and now she's a transwoman. Personally, I don't like either phrasing but "assigned X at birth" is generally considered more accurate.
• "Sex change surgery" is incorrect to say.
  • Nowadays, sex and gender have been given new though similar meanings, and they are distinct.
  • Sex typically refers to the genitals, the physical and genetic make-up of an individual. In reference to trans people, it typically denotes the genetic make-up of a person such that they have specific genitalia.
  • Gender refers to behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits, and in reference to trans people, it typically refers to physical (but not genetic) traits, such as having breasts or "passing" as a specific gender.
  • You cannot change your genetics, so "sex change" is generally taken as a misnomer.
• "Male" is not vague. In regular parlance, it could refer to a man or a boy regardless of maturity or development. In the context of trans or cis people, it specifically refers to people who can produce, y'know, semen. So if we're talking about a transman then "identifies as male" is more accurate than simply "male" since he presumably cannot produce sperm.

"More concise" isn't good when it's less accurate and non-preferred.

("Assigned X at birth" is also used in situations when you aren't certain of how someone identifies presently, but do know what they were assigned at birth. Statistical stuff, forms, reports, blah blah...)

Agree with the point about using "gender confirmation surgery" instead of the inaccurate "sex change".

I need to learn more about the terminology "identifies as" to be able to explain why to use that besides just saying "this is what people say is their language and I go by what they say to use".

"Identifies as" language is kinda getting some criticism due to being Shaped Like Itself ("people who identify as women" and "women" are the same people) while the widespread use is having the side effect of implying there's a meaningful distinction between the two (the prototypical example being a viral tweet of someone slapping a sticker on a women's bathroom door so it reads "people who identify as women", as if this makes it more inclusive).

That said, I think this is getting kinda off-track?

Yeah, just revert it and call it a night.

Personally, I have my own thoughts on these terms and how they're used, but it's irrelevant; I'm not Trans, I barely know anyone who's Trans, and it's best to just go with the accepted terminology on the page. It'd be more concerning if it was written elsewhere on non-LGBT-related pages, but here? It's using the terms it should be using, and it doesn't really matter if we personally agree with the wording or not if it's the accepted wording.

For the record, this is GLAAD Media Reference Guide, it's meant for journalists but it can help with avoiding offensive/controversial terms. Assigned male at birth/assigned female at birth are the preferred terms, and it should probably on the page for Transgender.

FYI, I sent the troper a PM, and they said they didn't intend to be rude but to be neutral and acknowledged it was taken as rude.

Neutral, huh?

I'm a cis person with an "out of nowhere" personal disproportionate aversion to one or two terms commonly used by trans people, but I still consider it crosses a line to change the commonly accepted terms to something else on things like a wiki page, where the original text may have actually been written by a trans person for all I know.