During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Equalizer duo
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
to Jason Jr., Zack, Equalizer duo, and Foley rewritte. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Aztec God.
to Marie L'Angelle rewrite, Jody rewrite, Peter Foley rewrite, Sean Russel rewrite, Peter Marstand, and Mr. Griswald.
As for JSchlatt, he really didn't have reason to do anything evil at that moment and the comedic moment doesn't seem to detract from his previous crimes, so I'd lean keeping him.
@ASghhrv6ub: I wouldn't mind those changes to the Beldam. Also, regarding the Dead Fic, you can still propose the person you had in mind, provided that they've done enough to qualify.
P.S. I've finally found the previous discussion for the Aztec god by unchecking my search data settings, signing back in via Google, and then searching for it again. Hope this clears any confusion on how I missed finding the discussion and I'll be sure to avoid this type of mistake in the future.
Caesar
Easy 'Yes' to Griswald and Marstand, excellent work!
Alright, for the revisit I mentioned...
What's the work?
Copycat is a movie I've discussed already, waaaaay back in 2016 I believe, starting Sigourney Weaver and Holly Hunter. A 90s crime thriller following Dr. Helen Hudson, a famed criminal psychiatrist now turned recluse, we see Hudson's attempts to work with police to stop a vicious new serial killer on the loose while dealing with her own agoraphobia.
As we just saw with the new write-up, the film already has a Keeper in the titular "Copycat." I brushed this fellow off when I proposed him, but now...
Who is he? What has he done?
Daryll Lee Cullum is a psychopathic excuse for a hillbilly who was arrested years ago for kidnapping two women, tying them to trees, and burning them alive, claiming upon being caught that the voice of Joan of Arc urged him into such crimes.
Turns out? Daryll Lee was lying through his broken teeth to get off with an insanity defense, which Dr. Helen Hudson quickly sees through and takes the stand to shut down Daryll Lee's ludicrous claims and reveal him to be nothing but a sadistic wackjob who burned the women alive because he enjoyed it. Hudson's prosecution leads to Daryll Lee being found totally guilty and put on death row.
Daryll Lee.... didn't take this well, and proceeded to mount an escape from custody, after which he tracked down Hudson to a college campus where she was giving a speech, cornered her in the bathroom and hanged her by a noose so he could torture her. When a cop tried to save Hudson, Daryll Lee put a knife to the man's throat and gleefully pondered if he should stab or shoot him with his own gun...Daryll Lee decided both and slashed the man's throat before shooting him in the gut.
Proceeding to do...things to Hudson that are never fully disclosed by the film but leave her traumatized and agoraphobic by the present, Daryll Lee was caught and imprisoned immediately after.
Now the present, as Peter Foley's rampage takes place, a "reformed" and "religious" Daryll Lee is confronted by Hudson and police about Foley knowing information only Daryll Lee himself would. Claiming that Foley's been a pen pal who Daryll was unaware was a vicious killer, Daryll Lee extorts a pair of signed panties out of Hudson before he'll reveal any information, ultimately leading the police on a wild goose chase.
And finally, at the end of the film, once Foley is killed after trying to recreate Daryll Lee's vicious attack on her, Daryll Lee is seen one last time in prison...his walls covered with newspaper articles about Foley's killings, writing to an unknown party in which it's revealed Daryll Lee was working with Foley the entire time in a mad quest to get revenge on Hudson, having convinced Foley from being mere fanboy to a full-fledged "disciple" of Daryll Lee's. Ordering his latest "disciple" to "keep things simple" following Foley's own defeat, Daryll Lee seals up the envelope and prepares to send it, ready to sic another budding killer onto Hudson while leering into the camera with a sick grin as the credits roll.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Short and sweet: none at all, Daryll Lee tries to claim insanity—bullshit. He says he's found religion in the present—nada, it's a sick god complex in which he compares himself to Jesus Christ. Hudson makes clear in one scene that she believes every serial killer has gone through trauma to become what they are, but neither Foley nor Daryll Lee are given anything remotely resembling an actual quality as such.
Heinousness?
Foley being one of my older ones from a time when I didn't have nearly as much experience, he of course was the standout to me while Daryll Lee felt like small potatoes next to him. Foley's got several murders that rip off famous killers, along with nearly blowing up several cops and trying to repeat Daryll Lee's assault on Hudson.
What needs to be considered, though? The final scene—and foreshadowing elements throughout—reveal that Daryll Lee was The Man Behind the Man to Foley, supplying him with information to emotionally torment and torture Hudson until such a time that Foley would repeat Hudson's assault and the murder of an innocent cop as his final rip off of a famous killer.
Now, I should note it's not made clear how much of Foley's killings Daryll Lee had an actual hand in—Daryll Lee himself proclaims in his final letter to his new disciple that Foley "strayed from the path and the Lord struck him down", and that he wants this guy to "keep things simple." So I suppose an argument could be made that Daryll Lee "only" wanted Foley to kill Hudson for him, and Foley went totally off-script with everything else, but I think, with what the film presents us? Foley's slayings can be laid at Daryll Lee's feet, even if Daryll Lee only convinced him to begin killing, it's still a hefty bit of nastiness that Daryll Lee never once shows remorse or even mild distaste at, instead merely frustration at Foley for putting his own fame ahead of Hudson's death.
So, what we got? Burning two women alive (not onscreen but given more than enough newspaper cutouts and plot points related to it for me to say it's not Offscreen Villainy), killing a cop, brutally assaulting Hudson, then convincing Foley and an unknown party into to become serial killers in an attempt to direct them towards Hudson as petty vengeance. Methinks it's enough.
Final Verdict?
I'd say...Keep to Daryll Lee, for as awful as Foley is, Daryll Lee is blatantly shown to have had an active role in his spree while having his own nastiness as well.
Edited by Ravok on Jan 13th 2021 at 7:31:10 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
to Daryll Lee Cullum.
Cullum
Any comment about this
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Daryll Lee.
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Cullum.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Zac, Marsten, Griswald and Daryll
Aztec God
The Moron
@nwot: That makes sense to me, but I'll admit that my decision making in this regard hasn't been the best. If nothing else, I certainly don't have a better idea
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 13th 2021 at 11:14:47 AM
Yes to Cullum... the fact he's implied to have a hand in Foley's doings is too much for me to say he "just" expected one body from it. The ending setting him up to repeat it seals it for me.
No problem Unknown, you made a fair case and with smaller works you don't always think to search and see if it's been talked about.
Yes to Cullum.
Best Smile
Cullum
@Unknow Well the fic has one villain (Scardonia AKA The Phantom) who kindnapped at least enough people how to make a corporation and make oceans of corpses, when some of them rebuilded the civilazation, Scardonia destroyed it and tried to kill them, killing enought people how to make "oceans of corpses" in the process, and was needed a Heroic Sacrifice to stop it, later possesed Gumball to try to kill Rob,; it was locked up in a dispositive that use his energy to travel beetwen worlds, but it doesn't look to be particulary painful until I remember, and only was locked up after all actions I mentioned bu try to kill Rob. Another character that I considered to propose since it have come back in one of the last chapters, is the Araxyte, a entity who killed people and took their souls to get regenerative powers, not so bad as Scardonia, but could count by the resources.
The problem is that until I remember, their motives and personality are not enoughly delepoved how to be CM, however I have not read the fic in some time (but I read the parts that were important to talk about the candidates before write this, the reason because I lated so many time), so I will read it again tomorrow and will give my toughs after it.
Also there is another character I considered only known as "the doctor", a member of Outland Industries who betrayed his partners, and possibly all the world to Scardonia, but as the fic is now his worst actions are in the territory of Fridge Horror.
Edited by ASghhrv6ub on Jan 13th 2021 at 12:20:36 PM
I am the one, I am the one, the godlike terror train, superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine
Based on both the EP and Foley’s entry, to Daryll Lee. They both sound like nasty pieces of work.
Need to find some new stuff to look into for this since its been a while (while I’ve got some stuff lined up, other than taking part in Shandor and doing the Butcher, I’ve done very little for this one lately).
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 13th 2021 at 9:27:28 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Having seen the movie? Cullum
Sure to cullum.
And also on that note: okay, I'll have a final EP from Sabrina but...cut Lucifer Morningstar. He's shown to have some care over his daughter Sabrina Morningstar, the clone of Sabrina Spellman, and is affected by her death. He's still an evil bastard and gets what he deserves, but...he's gotta go!
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Cullum.
Well, that is one less for the CM incarnation list for Old Scratch. Cut him.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Goku Black
Cullum
satan
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Equalizer duo and Cullum.
Nwot: Don't forget video games and animation for Marvel, and literature for both Marvel and DC.
I'm fine having the Other Mother on both. The film is probably better known, even though the book came first. Same situation with Anton Chigurh.
Edited by ACW on Jan 14th 2021 at 6:03:14 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to Cullum.
Cut Lucifer.
Yes to Junior Scott, Zack, both Equilizer pedos, Darryll
Nix Lucy
@ACW there’s already links to Literature, Video Games, and Animation on the main pages.
