During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
You know what? I'm also gonna sadly switch to a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for Zod. Considering Luthor tried to kill everyone in California, Zod just doesn't stand up to the level.
The Emperor of Evil!
Which is weird on a logical level, as being a KRYPTONIAN, a Godlike being, would normally have an advantage.
Yes to Shark, no to Zod and honestly... I'd like more on the Koekoeken before we start saying yes here. As I recall from the last discussion there wasn't much in the ways of implication about the horror its victims went through. It could be a Stitch Sisters situation where a second look is needed but I'm not seeing it right now. It hung out inside the old lady, moves on to the kid's sister and what else? Do the people it possesses die? I specifically remember it was downvoted last time on the basis that the bulk of its crimes and their depth fell under Fridge Horror. If we know for a fact the thing is some kind of Ancient Evil Serial Killer then I'd be down but I'm not getting that there's enough on what happens to its victims here.
Woagh
Changing it to , sadly.
Are you sure Movie!Lex isn't worth a look? Sure, he's a Butt-Monkey in the 2nd/4th films, but so is people like Caesar Clown, and his final appearance in Superman Returns does portray him as more sinister.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I mean, that's one movie's worth of embarrassing moments out of continuity.
Oh.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Dec 3rd 2020 at 7:56:33 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
yes I think we should make one for Luthor considering that his actions in Superman Returns is despicable enough. He also lost all of his comedic qualities so i think he counts in that one.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Being a Butt-Monkey in the second and fourth films gave me pause, as did the continuity issues (Superman III and Quest for Peace are its own continuity branching from Superman II while Returns branches from the first two). One such continuity issue is Martha Kent; she's dead in Quest for Peace but alive in Returns.
That's two movies worth.
By the way, Luthor kills 1 in Superman: The Movie; that's the detective he pushes out into the path of a train. Miss Teschmacher (did I spell that right?) gets the direct credit for the San Andreas missile; she gets 6 onscreen (five cars on the bridge and Lois). Zod gets 14 (a large sum back then), Ursa gets 11, Non gets 9.
Edited by k410ren on Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:25:51 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
No I'm reasonably sure we have talked about movie Lex before, and decided he doesn't count.
Edited by Bullman on Dec 3rd 2020 at 9:55:33 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
That's true. but considering his ultimate goal in the first movie is to launch nuclear missiles into the San Andreas Fault and cause a series of humongous earthquakes that would obliterate the West Coast and force people to buy nearby desert land that he's purchased, essentially profiting off the lives of millions without giving a care, that's more despicable than Zod's plan.
Remind me why he didn't count; I assume it's the comic relief moments but I could be wrong.
Edited by k410ren on Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:00:31 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I think it's his comedic moments. Which are even present in Returns. As well as a protentional redeeming quality with his girlfriend in Returns.
Edited by Bullman on Dec 3rd 2020 at 10:02:32 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
he says this to Kitty in their final scene in the movie ''I would trade 300,000 coconuts... ...and every ounce of your blood... ...for a quart of gasoline!'' Does that sound like a redeeming quality to you?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Hey I could be wrong on that last part, but I remember him still being played for laughs in the film at several points.
Edited by Bullman on Dec 3rd 2020 at 10:16:47 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Self-Declared King of Everything
No to Zod. And now I’m wishing that we could get a good Superman theatrical film. Can’t stand the ones we got, old or new.
Check out my current fanfiction project.
Woagh
Well, Zod and Luthor aside, I have an idea for an odd candidate.
A certain someone from the Fallen Kingdom quadrilogy of Minecraft music videos. I just wanna check if anyone's talked about it.
Don't worry. The music and Music Videos are only loosely related, but they're well known for their surprisingly good storytelling.
Wait, it's actually a tetralogy of vids. My bad.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Dec 3rd 2020 at 8:38:26 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Doesn't ring a bell. And as long as there's a plot—and given it's a quadrilogy I'm guessing that's the case—you should be good.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Madam Yiu, Shark and Koekoeken.
RIP Hugh Keays-Byrne.
Woagh
Alright. I've seen the tetralogy of videos, and the results?
I'm not sure, actually.
Here's the songs, BTW.
For starters, the Big Bad Pigmen aren't given much character other than "They're bad lol", but I expected that, to be fair.
The candidate I was talking about was Herobrine, the Big Bad of the first 2 videos and the Greater-Scope Villain of the last two. He's heinous enough, being responsible for successfully destroying an entire kingdom and later wrecking a village and killing a good few there as well, but I just want to know if the vids give enough context for it to work.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
I do wanna say with the Koekoeken the comparison to a cuckoo bird and Fridge Horror were brought up last time and deemed insufficient. I do trust Crow but I'd like a response first before I see people citing the latter claim for heinousness, which we have downvoted on before due to lack of weight the episode put on it.
I mean I do remember them being the most serious Minecraft parodies out there, my main issue is whether the stuff featured is enough or if the semblance of plot is to minuscule to count.
I remember those videos, and yeah, I'd say there's probably enough plot and context to count considering that despite their... uh... nature, they're essentially a standard epic fantasy story. My concern would be whether he has any characterization. I don't remember this being an Udoroth case where any of the songs are about him or illuminate his character. He's just... kinda there to my recollection.
Messenger from another dimension.
Definite no to Zod.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Woagh
Well, when the king steals the last ender pearl from the End Portal, it cuts to Herobrine looking fucking pissed. It heavily implies he was gonna use it for his own needs.
Wait, so he was revived by the Pigman army? Huh.
Well, seeing how the protagonist made a straight beeline towards briney once his master was killed by pigmen, it's kinda implied he was behind that massacre.
You know what? Lemme check something. Seeing how popular this series is, it probably has one.
Oh shit, it has an Official one!
I just found An official novelization by Captainsparklez. I might need to investigate it.
For now, lets just say "No-One counts" until further notice.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Dec 3rd 2020 at 9:55:43 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
I'm rewatching them right now... again, he doesn't have any characterization. He leads to the massacre of the city, shows up for a bunch of cool fights, has some evil minions who do his bidding, gets revived, and has another fight. Yes, he's shown getting enraged at that turn of events, but that's about two seconds of animation.
I'm not dismissing the candidate out of hand. He's definitely worthy of discussion, especially considering the genuinely rather astounding production value of the videos and the fact they're a quadrilogy with a substantial fantasy plot, but I don't see him as a CM. We know nothing of his personality or motives beyond "Bad good, do bad."
I'm not concerned about his heinousness or the implications he was behind certain crimes. I'm concerned about his characterization, which he has none of. He's certainly heinous enough, but he never speaks, his plans are never explained, nothing is elaborated on about him. There's enough plot and context for him to count if he had any character, but he doesn't.
Edit: First off, what. Second, the odds of that novelization yielding a candidate are much higher than the quadrilogy itself.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Dec 3rd 2020 at 9:56:46 AM
Yeah switching to no on Zod.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread