During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The reason it comes up is when there are half a dozen near identical candidates from the same band that amount to "I am historical bastard, I do the EVIL." It gets exhausting and it makes us wonder if some of them really all keep after all.
Also, my final Warhammer for now, not sure if he keep, but gonna give it a whirl
Who is Engra Deathsword?
Ahem:
Achampion of Chaos and the chief lieutenant of Asavar Kul, most powerful of his three Co-Dragons. During the war with Chaos, Engra was in charge of mopping up Kislev, annihilating the northern clans in an act of brutal genocide. Then...Engra Deathsword came to Praag.
Praag was the greatest of the northern cities, a massive hub for trade. Welcoming in many refugees from Engra's savagery, Praag was at the breaking point. Engra set up a camp (constructing tents from flayed skin because of course he did). when he judged the time right, Engra launched his assault, tearing through Praag and brought the might of the Dark Gods down onto the city. Quoting the book...
"raag was subjugated to horrors of such magnitude, the likes of which forgotten even by Elves and only dimly recalled by Dwarfs in ancient nightmares. When the hosts of Magnus the Pious reached the steppe, they could only look on in utter horror at the monstrosity of what had befallen the city, and weep openly when they realised the depth of their failure. Praag had fallen and Chaos was triumphant. "
Praag was annihilated, all the people slaughtered or fused into a monstrous tapestry of living, body horror flesh in horrific agony, Engra Deathsword's masterpiece. Magnus the Pious brought his armies to bear, ending in a brutal fight that saw the death of Asavar Kul (possibly due to Engra's opportunistic betrayal)....but Engra Deathsword was nowhere to be found.
Now, Engra return for the End Times, where he ends up participating with Chaos, ending up in a duel with the champion of Sigmar, Valten. Engra finally met his end when Valten cut him down.
Heinousness?
Engra is a Chaos Champion who's one of three Co-Dragons for Asavar Kul...now, Engra's got the one standout in Praag, even if he planned to do more, but the sourcebooks make it clear how horrific this was even compared to his fellows. Like sure Sven Bloody-Hand was responsible for some war crimes, sure Valmir Aesling was bringing hell down on the dwarves, but Engra Deathsword in Praag? Now that is horror. Quoting: " Man and stone bled together into grotesque, living sculptures, distorted faces writhed out from the walls, and imprisoned souls screamed in agony, entrapped within the twisted stones of the city, while their agonised limbs writhed out from between the flagstones of the pavement. By the wrath of this one Norscan warlord, the city of Praag had become a nightmare incarnate - and a taste of what awaited the Old World were the armies of the north victorious in their struggle."
So yeah, this is one of the most fucked up crimes and Engra is responsible for it directly.
Mitigating Qualities?
None. He's not even loyal to Asavar Kul or anything but himself, period.Engra has zero good qualities whtsoever.
Conclusion?
I'll abstain but Engra is bad for his one standout.
Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 1st 2020 at 9:05:23 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
deathsword
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So, here are the ones who are based on historical characters, and aren't Vlad/Drac or Jack, or Bathory.
- Macabre alone has a lot.
- Leaning cut in Fish.
- Keep Holmes (some of it's from his perspective).
- Accept's Jim Jones: Keep or cut, I could go either way.
- Anthrax's Hitler: Probably cut.
- Bewitched's Richard Ramirez: Ditto.
- Celtic Frost's Gilles de Rais: Keep. Isn't Gilles usually subject to a Historical Villain Upgrade?
- Dog Fashion Disco's Gacy: Probably cut.
- Exodus: Cut both entries (especially the first).
- Iced Earth's Attila: I'm fine keeping.
- Klezmatics' Ilsa Koch: As awesomely weird it is to have a Klezmer band with a Nazi CM written by a Guthrie, probably cut.
- Legion of the Damned's Ramirez: I guess cut.
- Machine Head's Manson: Not as easy, but leaning cut.
- The Real Mc Kenzies' Sawney Bean: Keep.
- Sabaton: Cut Hitler, but keep Karadzic (since it's him singing it).
- Skiltron's Sawney Bean: Keep.
- Sparzanza's Albert Fish: Cut.
EDIT: Yes to Engra.
Edited by ACW on Oct 1st 2020 at 12:13:56 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Emperor of Evil!
to Deathsword
Messenger from another dimension.
Yes to Engra.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Mmm... if Engra stands out, to them.
@ACW: There's no unambiguous proof that Ilsa actually made lampshades from human skin. Is that enough reason for her to keep if this change goes through?
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Oct 1st 2020 at 9:16:33 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, I overlooked that. I'm fine keeping her then. I may've overlooked a few others FYI.
Anyone got a good image for Fan Games?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Didn't we have a pic from a FNAF fan game we were considering for Monster.Fan Works?
Engra
Would the music issue also apply to fictional characters (e.g. the song is too similar to the canon counterpart?)
Lizzid people!
Jones apparently had redeeming traits in real life like believing in the equality of races. The song rewrites it to where Jones is just a mad man.
Edited by AustinDR on Oct 1st 2020 at 9:20:31 AM
Turning someone into a lampshade seems like an artistic flourish I'm willing to accept. It's the shit that just has historical war criminals and other vile people being themselves I want purged. ACW I'm gonna trust your list up there is accurate, though I'll concur with Imp on Ilsa.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
This image
? That could possibly work.
Please feel free to doublecheck it. I did a VERY quick glimpse of the lyrics, so I might've missed something.
EDIT: Oh, and Slayer's Mengele can probably be cut as well.
Edited by ACW on Oct 1st 2020 at 12:22:20 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
We did a fair few song cuts on the basis that the character was just reprising their canon counterparts.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Oct 1st 2020 at 9:22:04 AM
First we need to establish the rules and standards. I want to hear more on that.
We already discussed songs about fictional characters, and decided there are three main ways they can keep:
1. If they weren't a CM originally 2. If there are significant differences between them in the original and them in the song (changes of name, deeds, characterization, etc.) 3. If the song gets inside their heads.
I also made an effortpost, remember.
Sorry, I even talked to you about that one on the side and still forgot: yes there.
Not sure I like how we're talking about this like it's already decided. While I don't object to talking about potential cuts on principle, I don't think we have consensus yet.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Oct 1st 2020 at 9:25:52 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Engra.
I like the proposed Dayshift at Freddy's image for Fan Games page.
Edited by Bullman on Oct 1st 2020 at 11:29:12 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lizzid people!
@Imp: Right; especially with the getting of the minds of the character.
Edited by AustinDR on Oct 1st 2020 at 9:27:12 AM
Engra sounds like a . One major deed, but I'd say it's nasty enough.
Lizzid people!
Sure on Engra.
Most of the thread has indicated they lean against it already Imp but if you'd like it formally I'll just pose the question: who's down for us listing song versions of horrible people from history just being themselves? I don't understand the point, there's no fictional nuance to many of them and it feels like listing Hitler from a documentary from him. Let's get the standards cleared up so we don't have resistance towards looking through the list.
My personal stance, if the song just is more of a summary of one’s actions with no change (ideas believed about someone that don’t have any concrete proof is allowed), snip em.
I get you know I'm not attacking you but the differing wavelength about criteria is going to be problematic for communication when the bulk of the thread is operating with a certain interpretation of the trope and you're playing a different ball game, so to speak.
The rest of us are just as concerned about the right decision being made as you are. We might not ask all the questions every time a cut is proposed as you do but that doesn't mean we're not thinking about it. Many of us research the works ourselves or have seen/read/played them, asking every question that possibly could be asked on the thread isn't the ultimate proof of interest in making the right decision... we're thinking about it just as much as you are when we cast our votes.