Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

to Gustav

@TheImmortalAngelNewton and G-Editor: Gustav doesn't care about his status as much as his ideology and the emperor. He seems to be fine with losing his title and being reduced to a masked henchman because he considers it consistent with the empire's darwinism. He only cries foul when he sees the broken statue, which he perceives as an insult towards the emperor.

To put it another way, he's the rare person who votes for the Leopard Eating People's Faces Party with the full expectation that his face could get eaten.

Edited by Bugfragged on Feb 14th 2020 at 8:12:53 AM

In honor of Valentine's Day, I'd like to propose a candidate who was evidently given a writeup without consulting the thread first, but seems like a keeper to me.

What's the work?

My Bloody Valentine 3D is a 2009 American remake of the 1981 Canadian slasher of the same name. Years after a brutal massacre on Valentine's Day, Tom returns to his hometown where the murders took place and he narrowly survived. But now that he's back, the murders have begun again.

Who is Harry Warden? What has he done?

Harry Warden is the original Valentine's Day killer. Before his killing spree, he was already shown to be rather unpleasant to his fellow miners. Then an explosion happened in the mine, and he did what any rational human being would do to conserve his oxygen: kill and eat the other miners. Comatose by the time he was found, he was taken to the hospital for recovery.

One night, he woke up from his coma, and slaughtered the other patients (and apparently children) there, even going out of his way to rip out their hearts before making his escape. Blaming Mr. Hanniger, the mine's owner, for the explosion, he returned to the mine on Valentine's Day where a bunch of the local teens were throwing a party and slaughtered a good chunk of them before being shot by the sheriff and running into the mine, never to be seen again.

In the present day, the murders resume ... but he's not the killer. Tom Hanniger, the son of the mine's owner, is, but he sees Harry committing the murders.

Heinous standard?

Here's where it gets a little tricky, because he shares it with Tom. Years after the original massacre, Tom goes around killing people himself, but he has the justification of being certifiably insane (he literally doesn't see himself killing anyone, as the climax shows, he goes into a dissociative state and hallucinates Harry killing them) and a valid Freudian Excuse. And even then, Harry was responsible for those deaths, too, because if he hadn't nearly killed Tom, then Tom would have probably turned out relatively fine. Speaking in terms of the slasher genre, his crimes are prolific and gruesome enough to give him a pass. Compared to the original, he's killed more people, and didn't even have much reason to do so.

Mitigating qualities?

Nah, not really. His personality is made clear at the beginning of the movie, where he's just a dick for no real reason. Plus I'd say the gruesomeness of his killings is a personality trait in and of itself, especially since he went out of his way to mutilate a bunch of completely innocent patients while he was trying to escape the hospital instead of at least just killing them and leaving it at that. And unlike his original incarnation, the people he killed had nothing to do with the accident, short of Tom being Mr. Hanniger's son, and even that's Misplaced Retribution. You could try to justify his murder of the miners as desperate self-preservation but even that's just selfish and doesn't explain anything else he's done. The only real thing I can think of is that he's not given much screen time, but there've been plenty of past candidates where that's been the case (Tarkin and Clarence Darby come to mind).

Verdict?

Hey, I think he's a keeper. I noticed that ACW opposed keeping him, but ... things have changed in this thread over the years.

Edited by Stellarvore on Feb 14th 2020 at 10:18:10 AM

Changing to a yes on Gustav with that new information. Abstain on Harry for now, leaning yes

Okay then, here we go. Honestly surprised it seems these guys never came up before:

What's the work?

Razorback, an Australian horror film in which the characters must contend with not only a gigantic and powerful maneating razorback boar, but our entries here: a pair of murderous brothers named Benny and Dicko.

Who are Benny and Dicko?

Benny and Dicko are the main human antagonists and a pair of psychopathic brothers who run the Petpak factory, a pet food factory indulging in blatantly illegal animal cruelty and unsanitary conditions.

What Do They Do?

They run the Petpak factory, which is explicitly illegal in every way (mistreatment of the animals, dumping of waste, and generally being unsanitary), which is heavily implied to have created the title monster from the run off. After the boar kills Jake Cullen's grandson, they attempt to have him convicted of murder. As they explicitly know of the Razorback later, the implication is they're covering up their potential ties to it.

When Beth Winters comes to investigate their factory and gets footage of them, the brothers chase her down and run her off the road. Dicko then proceeds to attempt to rape her as his brother cheers him on every second. They are only stopped when the Razorback arrives and they leave her to be Eaten Alive by the beast.

When Beth's husband Carl comes to investigate her death, the two take him on a kangaroo hunt, only to abandon him in the middle of the Australian outback to die of exposure or be killed by the boar. Once they find Cullen trying to hunt down the boar, they proceed to knock him out, break both his legs, kill all but one of his dogs, and leave him to be eaten by the Razorback believing he knows too much about their activities. They then proceed to run down his one surviving dog while its running for help purely out of spite.

Carl, realizing they're responsible for the deaths of his wife and Cullen, goes on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge and corners Benny, who attempts to kill him but is cornered hanging over a mine shaft sells out his brother in an attempt to save himself before being sent falling to his death in a mine shaft. Carl then tracks down Dicko, who tries to throw him into a rotary fan, but he escapes and chases him down, leading to Dicko being mauled and killed by the boar.

Mitigating Factors?

They have none, they're complete, sadistic psychopaths that enjoy every moment of what they do. They don't even seem to care about each other, as Benny is willing to sell out his brother to try and save his own hide, and his brother endangers him with a gun at one point without really caring.

They do have unique personalities, with Dicko being more brave (not seeming all that afraid when Carl is about to execute him, he's less composed with the boar, but that would be a far more painful death) and openly crazy, while Benny is somewhat more composed and a complete coward, but both are sadistic psychopaths who are only motivated by continuing their illegal operation.

Heinousness?

Their only competition is the Razorback, who is just a big, vicious animal, while the brothers are psychopathic sadists. On top of that, they are directly responsible for its existence and use it as a murder weapon on two occasions.

In fact, while the Razorback has more onscreen kills, two of its kills are the brothers using it as a means to kill someone (leaving it with two kills they had nothing to do with, one of which is Dicko himself). And as they know it exists, created it, and feel no remorse for any of its killings, they're indirectly responsible for the deaths it calls.

The two are pretty much identical in their crimes, as while Dicko does more of the leg work, Benny is constantly there egging him on and enjoying every minute of it. The only time one does any crime without the other is when they're separated against Carl, and they basically do the same thing.

Verdict?

Two confirmed murders, several attempted murders, ruining a man's life to cover up their crimes, and many counts of animal cruelty.

I say an easy .

Edited by Godzillawolf on Feb 14th 2020 at 11:35:26 AM

Alright, just got back from My Hime marathon. So, about my EP in regards to Mai Hime:

First off, Wataru Ishigami? For all his manipulation, not only is he a small fry compared to Obsi and Nagi, but the ending suggests he genuinely loves Yukariko and is on the road to a Heel–Face Turn. So not even bothering with him.

Now, Nagi... after rewatching the scene, I am even less sure about what the hell happened. After spending the whole series being a total asshole, he speaks almost amicably to Big Good Mashiro and goes off with her to... somewhere. Honestly, the scene is bordering on Gainax Ending, and unless Mai-Otome was somehow confirmed a definite sequel, and maybe even then, I need a second opinion before I am comfy getting Nagi up.

So finally, Obsidian. Not only did he display zero mitigating qualities as I predicted, but I somehow missed some crimes of his. In short- he had Mikoto and Reito raked in a cult to be Tyke Bombs, forcing Mikoto to kill her own grandfather, manipulated things so that the rival Searrs Foundation would be destroyed, resulting in millions of deaths... and he set up that while he was still dormant.

Once he actually awakens inside Reito and possesses him, he manipulates Mikoto and Mai into giving in to their dark sides and fighting and hating each other and has Nagi manipulate Shiho into fighting them as well. Takumi and Yuichi, two of the people Mai loves most, die as a result, Mai gets pushed twice over the Despair Event Horizon, and it is indicated that Obsidian intentionally set this up to break her spirit so she would be a more willing bride for him. Also, all the people who die? He takes their souls and puts them inside pillars that he uses to sap their energy so he can get more power. He also kidnaps Mashiro and ties her up to some machine of his, and brainwashes her maid into serving him. And he states at one point that he feeds off the despair of the Himes, and has done this whole 'battle royale death festival' thing at least several times prior. Finally, he offers Mai to join him, and outright states that if she does so, he will order Mai to kill Mikoto, showing he does not care about Mikoto despite all the supposed love and care he displayed for her.

So yeah, this dude is basically a cross between Kyubey and Embryo. Considering that Sunrise made Cross Ange about a decade later, and that the Cross Ange finale seems to directly rip off the Mai Hime one (male Non-Action Guy Love Interest suddenly picks up a sword and becomes the one to directly fight the pure evil male Big Bad while the busty bisexual heroine whom the big bad was trying to force to marry him destroys stuff in the background)... yeah.

So, Too Long, Didn't Read version: Anime!Obsidian Lord, Wataru Ishigami for insufficient heinousness and redeeming qualities, and abstain on Nagi until someone else can give me a second opinion on the confusing final scene of the series.

Edited by MasterN on Feb 14th 2020 at 9:43:54 AM

Saying no to Benny and Dicko, unfortunately. I've seen the film, but they don't go over and above where they need to. It's just one attempted rape and a murder. That's all.

Yes to Warden

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 14th 2020 at 8:40:52 AM

Two murders, as they leave Beth to the boar.

And try to kill Carl by stranding him in the desert with the boar.

So two murders and one attempted, and both try to murder Carl at the climax. And attempting to leave Carl to die isn't even to shut him up at the time, they're just being petty jerks.

And I think METHOD of death matters here: their victims are left to be killed and eaten alive by the boar, that's a brutal way to go.

And they try to get Cullen's convicted of his grandson's death, when they clearly know the Razorback is real, which was at best covering up their role in its creation and at worse just being spiteful jerks.

Edited by Godzillawolf on Feb 14th 2020 at 11:46:01 AM

You're overstating Beth. They don't intentionally throw her to the boar, they panic and flee when the boar shows up. That leaves only Jake.

That's a bare bones rapsheet. That makes them villains, not CM's. Being spiteful jerks doesn't change they only have one murder victim.

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 14th 2020 at 8:47:02 AM

They also know the boar is there, that it exists, that it will kill her, and feel absolutely no remorse for doing so at all.

And the movie explicitly treats it as them having been directly responsible for her death.

At best, they're guilty of third degree murder in that case, but I'd say second degree is more accurate.

And even if it's just one murder, it's murder by breaking someone's legs and leaving them to be eaten alive. Which I think is way more than bare bones.

Edited by Godzillawolf on Feb 14th 2020 at 11:50:56 AM

Again: They try to rape her. Bad enough. But they openly panic and just run when it shows up. It's a REAL stretch being made for that one.

to Benny and Dicko for just being a pair of Dickos.

Guys, pay attention to what Master N said about Mai-Hime.

I personally think it counts because it's their fault she's in that situation, they show no remorse at all, and given how they try to murder Carl for a very petty reason and kill Cullen on the slight hint he might be onto them, I doubt they were intending to let her live anyway.

That's my opinion anyway.

But let's see if anyone else has anything to see.

Warden

We are finally discussing another iconic slasher villain, well done!

I'm still a no on Gustav. Again I see the argument but loyalty and admiration, even if it's a twisted kind, is a disqualifer for this trope. If he has genuine Undying Loyalty towards the Emperor to the point where he self-harms if he fails an order, even if that loyalty is because of how awful the Emperor is, it's a disqualifier in my book.

My understanding about Mai-Otome is that it's a separate continuity from Mai Hime with a completely different settings and characters having different histories, so whatever Nagi Dai Artai (Nagi's incarnation in Otome) does has no bearing on Nagi Homura. As far as I can remember, there's nothing that suggests the characters from Mai-Otome are the exact same characters from Mai Hime. Heck, the Otome version of Mashiro is a completely different character than the Hime version.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Feb 14th 2020 at 9:04:40 AM

Also, I'm going to point out after a discussion with a friend: while they have one successful murder, Benny and Dicko do try to kill Carl in a horrible way by stranding him in the middle of the outback for no good reason. Even if they didn't mean for the boar to kill him, they left him to die of either hypotherma at night or dehydration in the day purely out of spite.

And a Complete Monster doesn't need a big body count, just lack of redeeming traits and committing heinous acts by the standards of the movie they're in.

And again, while they might not intentionally have the boar kill Beth, the fact they explicitly say in regards to Cullen 'Not if the razorback gets him before he wakes up', shows they have no qualms about letting it dispose of people for them, so while it was a happy accident, it's one they have no remorse for and do on purpose later in the movie.

So I don't think it being unintentional detracts because they have no qualms about leaving people to die horribly completely premeditated later in the movie showing they'd probably have done it intentionally had they had the chance.

Edited by Godzillawolf on Feb 14th 2020 at 12:08:13 PM

My no stands. Their attempted crime pool is incredibly limited for a horror film

on Warden and on Obisdan

on Benny and Dicko because they just seem like standard movie thugs to me.

I plan to EP Nagi Di Artai myself. My issue is with Nagi Homura- specifically, the final scene of Mai Hime which seems to suggest he has some care for Mashiro. Maybe. The scene is so confusing that I cannot make heads or tails of it, so I want someone to watch the series and give me a second opinion.

Edited by MasterN on Feb 14th 2020 at 9:09:20 AM

To Wardan and Happy Valentine's day!

Why don’t you just explain that scene again to others then they can comment on that scene and whether Nagi Homura qualifies or not?

Also, what is the stance on requesting that someone else review a scene that the proposer isn’t sure of?

Edited by Draxterrus on Feb 15th 2020 at 1:18:15 AM

As someone who has seen that episode, I would say that Nagi Homura doesn't count.

For context, that last scene has Nagi talking to Mashiro (who's basically the Big Good), talking about how after the events of the series, the future has become foggier. Mashiro tells him that the girls chose such a future and that they were strong enough to weather whatever comes, and Nagi agrees with her. Mashiro then tells Nagi that the two of them need to return to where they came from, and he helps push her wheelchair through a large door leading to said place.

The interaction between the two in that scene is very amicable, too amicable for me to consider Nagi a Complete Monster, especially compared to the Obsidian Lord.

As for Nagi Di Artai, he might have a chance, though I don't quite remember if he did anything particularly bad other than bog-standard usurper stuff. Not to mention that series has a character who is a rapist and also attempts to have another character raped as well...

But I'll leave that to MasterN if they want to do the EP.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Feb 14th 2020 at 9:31:58 AM

Thanks. Gonna say to Nagi Homura unless someone has any counter arguments. And in case anyone asks, Manga!Nagi does not qualify either, as he is less heinous due to being less directly involved and also displays love for his sister and Mashiro in the Otome manga (which is a direct sequel to the Hime manga, unlike the animes which are presumably in separate continuities).

As for Nagi Di Artai, I will rewatch Otome and see.

Edited by MasterN on Feb 14th 2020 at 9:58:19 AM