During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lizzid people!
I mean if it's one occasion that they did commit trafficking, I'd be more lenient to say that the ones in After the Fall keep...despite being premature cases.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Umm.....I'm keeping my Yes to the RWBY Duo. The Branwen tribe holds one rich girl hostage(Wich isn't really "Trafficking". They weren't selling her to the highest bidder, they were just gonna make her family pay for her to be returned) and all their worst crimes are offscreen. Pretty much the only crimes we see them Commit is kidnapping Weiss and later fighting with Yang
Edited by Kylotrope on Aug 13th 2019 at 10:39:48 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Ultimate Moral Compass
Last week, I proposed a guy from a Batman story. Just yesterday, Scrags and Ravok teamed up to cover an unfilmed superheroine script. What do you get when you combine these together? Why a candidate from an unfilmed Batman fan script, of course.
What Is the Work?
Batman: Saviour is a fan script by Paul M. Wolford from 2004. It’s alright, though it does include a scene where Batman calls Superman a “Pussy” because he doesn’t harm criminals, so that's something.
A shitload of criminals have escaped Arkham Asylum and are terrorizing Gotham, and only Batman (plus his BFF Commissioner Gordon) can stop them and save the city. And no, Joker was not responsible for the mess. No, it’s someone we don’t really talk a whole lot about on this thread.
Who Is he?
Mr. Zsasz (never once referred to by his first name, Victor) is the main villain of the script, and a psychopathic, bloodthirsty, demented Serial Killer who carves a scar onto his body for every life he’s taken.
What has he done?
With over 150 cuts and scars crawling all over his body by the time the story starts, Zsasz dresses up like a street magician and tricks children into telling him where their parents live, whereupon he breaks into their houses and kills the families, children included. Hell, not even babies are safe, as a dead infant is found in a crib after one of Zsasz’s murders. Sent to Arkham Asylum, Zsasz makes a deal with the asylum’s owner, Jeremiah Arkham, to release Zsasz in order to get closer to studying what makes Batman tick. But as Zsasz says, “Things change,” as he escapes from his cell earlier than expected, murders Jeremiah’s assistant Ahms Labarba, and releases every prisoner in Arkham Asylum out into the streets of Gotham. These criminals, including the likes of Killer Croc and Man Bat, go on a crime spree, murdering countless innocents. Zsasz himself kills about 20 people during the breakout.
Before he was sentenced to Arkham Asylum, Zsasz cuts a deal with Bane, supplying him with Venom should he get involved in the breakout and tell him Batman's secret identity. Zsasz does just that, allowing Bane to go on a killing spree and kill Batman for him. Once Batman takes Bane’s ass down after Round 1, Zsasz meets the Dark Knight in the theater where Bruce’s parents died. Zsasz brags about knowing Batman’s secret identity and how he loves killing the “drones” while their awake—especially the babies. But Batman ain’t having none of that and beats the shit out of him, even kicking him in the nuts while he’s down. Bane breaks through the doors and tackles Batman for Round 2. Talia al Ghul, who served as Bruce’s crush throughout the story, shows up with a gun and just shoots Zsasz in the head.
Redeeming Qualities?
None. The story interestingly has people argue whether or not Zsasz is just mentally ill or fully aware of his actions. Well, for a while, as it’s made very much clear that Zsasz is in full control of his murders, and loves every second of it.
Heinousness?
The only real villain of the script, as the other major villains appearing are either just namedropped, or have very little impact on the plot.
Conclusion
I think he’s a keep.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Aug 13th 2019 at 11:17:23 AM
"No running in the halls!"
Yes to Zsasz.
I'm only downvoting the RWBY duo because I feel we should probably wait until the next volume; I'm convinced they meet the heinous standard of RWBY at the moment.
The Draftsman of Doom
Lizzid people!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Zsasz
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I understand your point to downvote the duo...but at the same time, we had upvoted candidates that didn't have their arcs finished and then later revisited them to determine if they still qualified.
Edited by AustinDR on Aug 13th 2019 at 10:32:13 AM
Zsasz
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Zsasz. Third incarnation of him (Post-Crisis, New 52).
Zsasz.
Edited by Beast on Aug 13th 2019 at 1:00:17 PM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
@AustinDR: Well, with a lot of those characters, we can't make much of a guess at whether or not they will gain mitigating factors or be outheinoused after we first put them up, and there's usually not a huge chance of the latter happening. With the duo, we know that Atlas, as well as probably the SDC, is going to be explored in more detail in the next volume, and I feel there's a high chance of the traffickers we have up failing the heinous standard later with this in mind.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I know; I don't mind if they stay.
Edited by falcontalons on Aug 13th 2019 at 11:17:28 AM
Lizzid people!
Again, if they go up, that issue will be addressed if another book comes out or anything in the show disqualifies them.
You had me at "kills babies". Yes to Zassy.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, I decided to hold off on submitting the RWBY lit duo for now.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Zsasz
As for the RWBY duo? I... Fail to see how exactly one hostage situation outweighs serial human trafficking. Yeah, the Branwen Tribe express no moral opposition to it, but they still don't do it on the regular.
Kind of where I'm leaning here. One instance of kidnapping doesn't out-heinous a trafficking operation
Goku Black
zsaz
I don't see the issue either tbh
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ultimate Moral Compass
Agreed. I'm still leaning 'yes' to the RWBY duo.
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Zsasz, and I'm not seeing anything to disqualify the trafficking duo. My 'Yes' vote stands.
Now, some of you might remember my proposal some years ago for Eric Chase from Joe Hill's The Cape, for which here is his write-up:
- Eric was, at first, just self-centered and lazy, blaming all of his life's problems on his kind mother and brother. However, once he reclaimed his childhood cape that allows him the power of flight, he becomes something far more wicked. Firstly murdering his girlfriend because he suspected her of cheating on him, Eric later drops a grizzly bear onto two detectives investigating him for his girlfriend's death, and happily watches as they are mauled to death. Using his mother as a hostage, Eric tries to burn his brother alive, and, when his mother tries to flee the state, Eric, after murdering a man with a cinder block, uses a chainsaw to down the entire jumbo plane she is on, killing hundreds of innocents when it crashes into a bridge filled with people. Finally confronting his brother, Eric brutally beats and tries to kill him while refusing to take responsibility for his crimes or his crummy lot in life. Childish, unintelligent, and homicidal, Eric serves as a warning that even the most uninspired and pathetic of people can become truly dangerous when given power without responsibility or fear of retribution.
Well, in 2018, a new series started, calling The Cape: Fallen, which has just finished its run two weeks ago....so let's discuss that.
Now, Eric returns in this interquel, taking place immediately after the murder of his girlfriend. Plagued with nightmares of her death and attacks of conscience that take the form of his father giving him moral lessons, Eric heads out to his father's old log cabin deep in the woods for some soul searching, having flashbacks to childhood throughout the comic.
Upon arriving at the log cabin, Eric is confronted by a group of people staying at the cabin...who are LARPers (Live Action Roleplayers). Though at first annoyed by their presence—especially when he recognizes one of them as a childhood bully—Eric is welcomed by the friendly group, and actually seems to be into the idea of roleplaying, taking the name of "the wizard Darkhole" for a session of fun with the group.
Though enjoying himself and making friends with the group, unfortunately, things take a turn when Eric gets a bit too into the roleplaying, and punches one of the players, leading to them all expressing weirdness and fear at him. Ticked off by their (completely understandable) reaction, Eric is once again plagued with nightmares of his girlfriend and his father, the girlfriend side goading him into giving into his truthfully dick-ish, power hungry side, while his father side attempts to help him be friends with the group and use his cape for good purposes.
When two members of the group spot Eric flying, he decides they can't be left alive as he wants to keep his powers a secret, and promptly grabs them up in a tent and smashes them repeatedly into several trees, reducing the duo to a pile of bloody mush before leaving them to slowly die....he then plans to continue "playing nice" with the rest of the group, but when they find the bodies of his victims, Eric simply smiles, shrugs and decides to change the name of the game...and begins systematically hunting down the rest of the group, remarking that his girlfriend-nightmares are "right" about him, not his father.
Grabbing one of them, Eric flies him up to a flag pole, and slooooooowly lets him slip down onto it, impaling the screaming man straight through the body. Eric then attacks the next one in a cave, grabbing her and flinging her up into the ceiling of the cave and impaling her on the stalactites (or stalagmites, whichever is the ceiling ones >_>) .
Confronting the final LARPer, who also happens to be his childhood bully, Eric grabs him, flies up into the sky, lights him on fire, lets him burn alive for a few moments, then flings him down into the log cabin, killing the man and burning down the cabin, at which point Eric heads back to the city, ready to continue his spree that is detailed in the original comic...while remarking to himself "Wonder if my dad would be proud of the man I've become?.....Probably not."
In terms of deeds, it definitely adds to Eric's rapsheet. He massacres a group of people who were completely friendly to him and only got mildly pissed at him when he punches one of them, and though he at first claims it's because he can't let his secret out and is "sorry", he eventually admits to himself that he just enjoys hurting people and finally getting, ah, "revenge" for their "crimes" against him.
As for redeeming qualities or a Freudian Excuse, Eric's past with his father and brother is expanded on, and he's shown once more, just like in the original comic, to Used to Be a Sweet Kid, and was often picked on by his brother...though we get a good glimpse of his future-personality when he, without hesitation, kills a deer his father was hunting after his brother was hesitant to end the life of a living thing.
But, ultimately, all of that "good little boy" is gone by the present. Eric is an utter scumbag, and though he experiences guilt for killing his girlfriend and is attacked by conscience, the entire point of this comic is to show Eric's "full" descent into villainy, as in the original comic he went from "killing my girlfriend" to "DOWNING A DAMN AIRPLANE' pretty smoothly, so this comic was made to show the graduation from "killing my girlfriend" to "murder of more innocent people", and it does so quite well, showing that though Eric has guilt? He ultimately accepts it and admits that he enjoyed killing his girlfriend (to such a point that he took pictures of her dead body), and rejects his conscience (and by extension his father's childhood teachings of morality), to such a point that he burns down the beloved family cabin and cruelly smiles while remarking that his father wouldn't be proud of the man that he's become.
So yeah, though Eric got more complex in this comic? He still handily counts, and I honestly appreciate this comic for making Eric somehow even more hateable, because someone experiencing guilt and then making the conscious choice to get over it is so much more personally despicable to me than just never feeling guilty in thr first place.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 13th 2019 at 12:01:29 PM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
Eric
Also way to go the authors. I appreciate the idea of making a cm more complex without giving them redeeming qualities.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I don't know Eric or the work but I trust you and am happy it made you happy.
A complex CM is one I like.
I agree with the sentiment y'all have on the RWBY duo, but I'm still abstaining because I feel bamboozled by all this RWBY stuff. I can't keep it all straight so I'll leave it to more well versed folk.
Oh yeah, Guilty Gear's getting a new game if someone wants that. I'll pass since I'm a very casual fan.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Keeping my yes to the RWBY duo.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Aug 13th 2019 at 9:19:53 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
I disagree that the traffickers don't stand out. While the Branwen Tribe has no issues with trafficking, the fact that they only do it once, as opposed to the novel villains who have been trafficking people for a while, makes them stand out even more since thus far they're the only characters to actively participate in human trafficking. At least that's what I think.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon