Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I support cutting, it shows that Even Evil Has Standards is in effect, he dies helping the heroes, and he does have redeeming qualities.

Seriously, Manga and Brotherhood Anime Kimblee is a CM? I've seen tons of stuff saying he wasn't. He's a killer, and a proud one. His good points are slim, but his code of morals makes him not qualify. His morals, if you can call them that, are all about staying the course and doing what you think is right. He'll still kill anyone he's ordered to, or is inclined to, but he still puts a lot of stock in what he believes in (And he is a Nietcheze wannabe,so that involves a lot of killing), but he isn't a hypocrite. And that allows him to pull an Even Evil Has Standards (Of some bizzarre sort) on Pride, and we all see Pride isn't a CM. I'm suprised that Kimblee's listed as a CM, he's bad, but I don't see him fitting the Heinous bar.

edited 4th Jul '12 10:08:53 PM by DrPsyche

I think a lot of people get caught up in the Loves the Sound of Screaming part and forget about the rest. Not to mention that a lot of people seem to have trouble separating his portrayal in the first anime (where he absolutely qualifies for CM status) from his portrayal in the manga/Brotherhood where he does not. (He's also not really a Nietzsche Wannabe; more some really twisted take on Social Darwinist & Rousseau Was Right, though that's neither here nor there). The fact that the manga, unlike the first anime (where half the villains qualified) doesn't really have any candidates beyond Shou Tucker, Dr. Goldtooth, and maybe Father (and I'm iffy on that one too) makes him look worse too.

For those who don't know the series, by the way, when we say he choses to die rather than help Pride, that's literal. Kimblee was only going to continue to exist as long as Pride did. He chooses oblivion over helping out a hypocrite.

EDIT: Have now cut him.

edited 4th Jul '12 10:39:35 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Thank you.

No problem.

Something I'm wondering about—does Father (Big Bad of Full Metal Alchemist) really count? I mean, he certainly doesn't seem to have any good points, yet his sparing Hohenheim and giving him half of the souls of Xerxes in the backstory and his (kept) promise to recreate Gluttony with all his memories intact when the latter is slain the first time (keep in mind that Gluttony is hardly the most efficent of servants) would seem to indicate that he's capable of at least some affection. Perhaps more importantly his death scene, much like manga!Envy's and Pride's is flatout pitiable, and Hohenheim openly invokes Alas, Poor Villain in Brotherhood, noting that Father's basically been screwed by his own psychology—as long as there are any rules holding him down he'll always feel "trapped in the flask".

edited 4th Jul '12 10:44:57 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I never really saw him resurrecting Gluttony as a Pet the Dog moment, he was just recreating a minion (Though he says that he rid himself of his sins through his children, so I wonder if he had re-acquired Gluttony, and wanted to expel the sin, but that makes little sense in that he did not recreate the others when lost). And the effectiveness of Gluttony is rather pitiful, one wonders why Lust, a more effective agent, wasn't recreated. I can only assume that Gluttony's failed truth gate could have helped him further his plans by absorbing any unforeseen hiccups. That said, I don't really know if Father is a complete monster. He's too alien and the Blue and Orange Morality makes one wonder. He does have an Alas, Poor Villain moment, and his true goal, to finally be free is both Alien and easy to understand. I think the page mentions this, but we do need to get rid of non-examples.

edited 5th Jul '12 12:58:01 AM by DrPsyche

I want to discuss a potential removal of other villains. Soto and Captain Gutt from Ice Age. The former is on the main page and on film's YMMV while the latter is only on YMMV.

• Soto. Let's see, he causes the death of Roshan's mother and widowed his father all for the sake of making Runar suffer his same angst over his own loss, he is heavily implied to be setting up Diego, his own second-in-command for slaughter by making him go off on a wild goose chase after a baby who rationally must be dead, and he has no real Freudian Excuse besides his unholy desire for revenge that he will stop at nothing and no one to see it finalized. In some ways, he is like Zira, as both are consumed by vengeance and will stop at nothing to see their revenge given to their foes.
  • Captain Gutt in the fourth film. Before he meets the group, he's already apparently insane or deluded, scouring the seas with his crew on an inceberg ship. All his crew say he saved their lives and they serve him out of gratitude, but when they suggest our heroes do the same (and they refuse, predictably), the Captain immediately proceeds to prepare to execute them. Gutt says the he got the name because he rips your body and lets your guts spill out. In response to the heroes escaping (losing his ship in the process), he vows vengeance, and abbandons his first mate. When said first mate escapes confinement from the heroes to loyally rush back to him and warn him, he calls her useless and a failure for not doing something to kill the heroes, threatens to kill her if she doesn't kill Diego, then strips her of her rank. When the heroes steal his makeshift ship, he vows to destroy everything Manny has and loves. He proceeds to do this by taking all of the travelling horde of animals escaping the Advancing Wall of Doom plus Manny's family hostage, and using Ellie and Peaches as hostages to force Manny to him so he can kill him himself. This guy is even worse than Soto; at least Soto wasn't insane.

The problem is that Soto only wants revenge, while Gutt is a pirate after all. Do we remove them?

Italics are never a good sign.

Soto shouldn't be on there; he's motivated by revenge, which is something we can all understand. He's evil, but he clearly cared for his pack considering the lengths he's going to revenge.

As for the Pirate...yeah, italics are bad.

I say cut both and tell them to come here to discuss it.

I sent PM to the user who added Captain Gutt. You won't believe who added Soto; brony99! He has been banned ages ago already, and this only confirms to remove Soto. Brony should NEVER be take seriously.

edited 5th Jul '12 5:58:51 AM by Krystoff

Any way to scan all the CM subpages for edits made by him? I tried using ctrl+f of the word brony for the Disney subpage edit history and for the Western Animation subpage edit history and couldn't find any of his edits.

I think if we can find whichever edits were made by him, we should revert them by default, and list them here. If a character really is a CM, someone with a better understanding of the trope can make the case for why they should be on the list.

EDITED IN: Are we (mostly) agreed with regards to keeping Scroop off the list? In hindsight I might have been a bit pre-emptive about making the edit request, but I still think it was a better edit to make, in light of the user arguing for Scroop's CM status seeming less experienced with these discussions than those arguing against, and the reasoning for showing some classic signs of the trope decay. (Ie. "X character is cool" etc...)

edited 5th Jul '12 7:05:54 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

I am fine with removing Scroop, but I haven't seen the consensus that he doesn't count. I saw most users claiming that he does count. Another problem is with Scar. He is a very tricky case. Originally everyone wanted to remove him, now everyone wants him back...

I have no issues with keeping Scar. He certainly meets all the criteria; his having jealousy as a motivation is hardly a reason to exclude him. Given that he's a villain in a children's show who could easily fit into a much darker story, I'd say the advantages of keeping him outweigh the disadvantages.

As for Scroop, I was staying out of this conversation because I didn't really care, but let's cut him. I remember watching Treasure Planet at eight or nine and finding him mildly creepy at best. He certainly didn't have the impact on me that say Scar, or Mulan's Shan-Yu, or even Maleficent had.

@ Krystoff—if you haven't cut Soto yet, please do. While wanting revenge doesn't exclude him (one can want revenge and still be totally selfish about it) the fact that he wants it not for himself, but for his packmates, does.

Regarding my earlier question about Father—does he stay or go? I've only gotten one response; do I need to provide more information about the character to the forum? (To answer an earlier question, the reason he doesn't bring back Lust is because he can't; Roy completely destroyed her).

edited 5th Jul '12 8:01:56 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

He is already gone. So is Scroop. I also think that we really should discuss Scar very carefully, and return to discussing the sandbox for characters from Video Games.

edited 5th Jul '12 7:56:43 AM by Krystoff

Go to the "Edit request for a locked page" thread in Frequently Asked Questions.

(That was in response to what you had there earlier, but it bears mentioning for future reference.)

edited 5th Jul '12 7:57:21 AM by DarkConfidant

I got the impression that, of the few users involved in that sub-conversation about Scroop, (here's where it started) Dr Psyche was for, Footsteps was against, and others weren't sure. (Shaoken at first seemed to be against, but later stated that he was on the fence as he hadn't seen the movie.) Perhaps we could use a crowner to find out?

My point wasn't just that he was jealous, but that he had a bit of an excuse to feel entitled to such power when the one who had it only did because he was physically stronger. In any case, we need to keep it to one character at a time. Let's get the discussion about Scroop out of the way first before we further discuss Scar, because if we keep jumping all over the place here we won't make much progress.

edited 5th Jul '12 8:01:57 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Scroop has already been removed. There is not point of discussing him. It is too late.

That... makes no sense. Just because he's already removed does not mean he cannot just as easily be put back if there is consensus to do so.

I don't know, it was a mixed discussion, there's no guarentee we'd reach a different consensous without new opinions.

That said if some new opinions want to make themselves known, that'd be grand.

I think we should now go back to the sandbox.

@1436: I apologize if me thinking the character is cool got in the way of my argument. I said it in response to another troper claiming that Complete monsters cannot have an Evil Is Cool factor, at all. Now I like Disney villains, to me, they are the classics. But my favoritism towards them does not diminish the fact that I think Scroop is a depraved psycho and a Complete Monster. Also, if you remove him, please do so from the YMMV page on Treasure planet, so many cut examples from the subpages somehow don't get cut from the work's YMMV page. My opinion still stands about him being a CM, if no one agrees, that's fine, I've been told someone cut him already. Still, don't dismiss the evidence I gave of his actions because of my opinion of him.

edited 5th Jul '12 10:35:42 AM by DrPsyche

Hmm? Do you have a link to said claim?

Anyway, it never occurred to me that Treasure Planet's YMMV page may have had a CM entry, but even now that I know it's there, I'm hesitant to crosswick the removal until we've come to a clearer decision, such as a crowner to confirm consensus, or mod statement on what to do or whatever else. I still find Footsteps' arguments more convincing than yours, but I am waiting on such a clearer decision before crosswicking the removal and moving on to Scar.

edited 5th Jul '12 12:12:46 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

I bring up the YMMV page because there was a few problems with miscommunication in removing Maleficent from the C Ms and not the YMMV. I honestly didn't see any of Scroop's loyalty to anyone in the movie, but, seeing as he was cut, it was apparent to more people, perhaps I should watch the movie again. The post I reacted to was on page 57, from you it seems. I mistook you saying that A CM being played for revulsion and not Coolness, as CM's cannot be Evil Is Cool. I also misspoke in my answer in that saying Cm's are cool, as it could have been taken that rooted for these depraved sickos. I was just agreeing with Krystoff's comment. I believe that Evil Is Cool does not impact on a CM's status that much. Coolness is audiences enjoyment, and CM is the depravity they can sink to. While, I do like the characters I mentioned in a Love to Hate sort of way, they are still very evil people. However, the fact that I like these characters shouldn't be grounds for dismissing my arguments (Footstep's arguments, however, argue against my point, and I will accept if those are what got him cut).

edited 5th Jul '12 12:39:33 PM by DrPsyche

OK, ran through Bulletstorm. Here's the skinny on Sarrano:

• Used special-ops squads to kill hundreds of civilians for criticising the military in general and him in particular.
• Tremendously Bad Boss, handing out effective death sentences (read, stranding them on a Death World, pushing them off buildings, or just shooting them in the head) to his men for crimes ranging from being in the line of fire, through objecting to his nastier actions, to not being sadistic enough.
• Severe case of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder - betrays everyone he comes across if it'll maybe increase his chances of saving his own hide. This includes his own men.
• Never kills cleanly if he can help it. If he can torture you to death, he will.
• No Freudian Excuse, no regret for his actions. His reactions to carrying out the above range from delighted amusement to sexual arousal.

I'd say he fits.

edited 5th Jul '12 1:18:30 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

On Disney page there are 5 villains. Those villains are my top five who in my opinion are most evil on the list. They are NOT m favorites. I want to discuss them because I find NO reason for them to be gone, I might be wrong like I was with Rodrigo Borgia. Number 1 should NEVER be gone, 2, 3, and 5 are quastionable while number 4 is decidedly a CM.

1.

• Blackbeard from the fourth Pirates Of The Caribbean is an example: He enjoys torturing his prisoners, locks them in cages and burns them alive, punishes anyone who tries to disagree with him, his horrible treatment of Syrena, and in the end, he is ready to sacrifice his OWN DAUGHTER, to save his own life. His disregard for his own daughter's life was even implied when he was ready to force Jack Sparrow to jump the gorge under the threat of her death, and ordered a mook to load two guns with a bullet each, and keep even himself in the dark as to which guns are loaded, and later lied to his daughter about knowing which ones are loaded.

I find NO real reason for the removal. He meets all the three criteria.

2

• Lotso from Toy Story 3 . He allows the toys to be tortured by the too-young toddlers in the Caterpillar room, and will do anything just to keep his reign. Here's just a short list of his atrocities: lying to Big Baby and Chuckles just so he wouldn't be alone in being lost, ordering the resetting of Buzz Lightyear, watching him beat down his former friends with a cold sense of satisfaction, beating Chatter Telephone to a pulp in order to find out about Woody's escape plan, and, in the climax of the film, he leaves Andy's toys to burn in the Incinerator after they risked their lives to save him! And he does so with a SMILE, a mocking salute and while yelling out "Where's your kid NOW, sheriff?!" And while he does have a sad backstory, there's a scene where Woody point blank calls him out on how weak it is (his owner replacing him with a new Lotso was, considering she doesn't know toys are alive, a sign of how she loved Lotso; bascially Woody says that it was Lotso who abandoned HER.) He is likely competing with Clu and Judge Frollo for Disney's most evil villain. Karma does kick him in the balls when he gets condemned to an eternity in a dump due to the very emotion that he scorned.

This time, I will listen to other opinions, because just being more sickening than other Pixar villains, does not make him a CM, though I still think we should remove Hopper if he doesn't count since Lotso is waay worse!

So here I mentioned the first two. Others are 3 The Mad Doctor (not the one from Epic Mickey), 4 The Coachman and 5 Frollo.

edited 5th Jul '12 2:51:01 PM by Krystoff