During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Masque
New proposal, from Buckskin: America's Defender of Liberty.
This one will be short, as the issue is only 8 pages.
Who's the candidate?
Mr. Brockman, a Nazi spy masquerading as a schoolteacher.
What does he do?
After taking his cover job, Brockman starts manipulating a group of five children whose dads worked for defense factories into spreading Nazi propaganda that calls for revolution. However, his real plan is far more sinister. You see Brockman is simply using that to lure the kids into a false sense of security. He then kidnaps them and demands that their fathers bomb the factories, explicitly during working hours, under pain of their sons' deaths.
The kids themselves are held in terrible conditions, with Brockman whipping them when they speak. After threatening them with the whip again, Brockman goes to discuss the final bits of the plan with his men. He intends to have the boys' fathers arrested for what he's making them do, and killing the kids so they won't talk. At this time, Buckskin shows up to stop them. Our hero is overpowered, and Brockman leaves him and the children with a set bomb so he can escape. Luckily, Buckskin uses his pet eagle Talon to escape, gets the bomb to a safe distance before it blows, and captures the spy ring.
Heinousness?
Shares the position of highest attempted bodycount in-series with the Black Buzzard, whom I will propose later.
Mitigating factors?
He's a Nazi in a Golden Age comic. Not a one.
Verdict?
Ultimate Moral Compass
(Kent) Brockman
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Brockman.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to Brockman
I didn't expect that Masque got so many support despite I'm having a bit of a low expectation with the character. Thanks guys! I'll do his writeup soon.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 16th 2018 at 1:25:10 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Yes to Brockman.
Yes there
Alright, now...remember when I promised that Die Hard keeper? wells...
This is from Roderick Thorp's novel "Nothing Lasts Forever"...the book Die Hard was based on, a sequel to his first novel The Detective....Joe Leland is a counterterrorism agent, now in his sixties, visiting his daughter Steffie at her workplace, Klaxon oil...just as a group of international terrorists attack. Their leader? you ask for a complete monster and I give you...Little Tony.
who is Little Tony?
Antony "Little Tony" Gruber, is the 30 year old son of wealth and privilege who went into terrorism for the thrills and the denunciation of 'western hypocrisy.' A sadistic thrill killer, Gruber targets executives and industrialists, always executing them with a bullet to the lapels. Now, Leland becomes aware of him via counterterrorism conferences as Gruber makes quite the name for himself. On Christmas, when Leland is visiting, Gruber and his men invade the Klaxon building and take everyone hostage. Gruber knows that Klaxon is engaged in illegal weapons dealing with the right wing government of Chile and wants to deal with them, expose them and....do even worse. Now, as I said before, Gruber? Is not as into this whole 'we're in it for the greater good' thing as his boys and girls in the gang...
When trying to get into the secret safe? He interrogates the head of Klaxon, Rivers and calmly executes him with a shot to the lapels. Now, Leland escapes as the terrorists round up 75 hostages from the Christmas party and kills one terrorist, also swiping the detonators of some heavy duty explosives. Gruber has Leland hunted, eventually putting on a friend of his daughter's, Ellis and executing him over the phone. Having Leland hunted, Gruber's plan is steadily unveiled? They'll plunder the stolen money from Klaxon, toss it out the windows, lure the cops in...and then fly off in a helicopter they have ready...while rigging the place with explosives and detonating them...with enough power to obliterate the plaza building, the hostages and everything and everyone for half a mile all around with a special transmitter. Without the detonators, though...
Now, Leland manages to keep eliminating the bad guys...until pressed for time, Gruber gets desperate enough to attempting to cultivate public sympathy and taking Leland's daughter hostage. Managing to free the other hostages and send them out (Though one is shot dead by Gruber as he tries to shoot Leland), leland sees Gruber pull Steffy off....ending in a confrontation near a window. Leland shoots Gruber who falls from the window...but drags Steffy with him to fall to her death (gee, this might've been the smartest change Die Hard itself made, y'know?)
Heinousness?
A thrill killing terrorist with at least 9 bodies to his name, and attempting to wipe out half a mile of downtown LA with at least 75 casualties? Easy pass here.
Mitigating Qualities?
Unlike Hans Gruber, Little Tony Gruber makes a show at being a genuine terrorist, but...while he has high minded rhetoric, he's just a thrill killer. It's pointed out when he shoots Rivers, he just wanted to kill someone because it's fun. He's sadistic, cruel and while Klaxon is actually guilty of what he says, he can barely put up a show of buying it save to gain public sympathy. He's just a total bastard.
Conclusion?
And a yes for him. Honestly, the changes Rickman brought to the character when he was brought to become Hans Gruber were SO for the best.
Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 15th 2018 at 10:37:31 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Hans Gruber 1.0
Current mood: sick of your shit
Masque, Brock, Tony.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yes to the Gruber prototype. Speaking of Hans, some people on other website found him rather comedic but I think it's a bit understandable due to the suave performance from Alan Rickman.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
To Tony the Tiger.
Gruber
New proposal, from Buckskin: America's Defender of Liberty.
This one will be short, as the issue is only 8 pages.
Who's the candidate?
The Black Buzzard, a Nazi spymaster.
What does he do?
The Buzzard has his Dragon Jessup manipulate some schoolchildren into delicering coffee and sandwiches to the soldiers operating anti-aircraft artillery. He then has Jessup poison the coffee, to kill the ntire unit. The poison is horrible, first making the men unable to breathe and then melting them to the bone. The Buzzard's men then shoot down a transport plane, killing everybody aboard.
As it turns out, this was a test run. The Buzzard's true agenda is to destroy the largest arsenal in the United States, which canonically has thousands of employees. He poisons all the guards with the horrific flesh-melting poison, then gets in his plane for his master stroke: A kamikaze run to completely annihilate the factory! Buckskin manages to save the day, but the Black Buzzard escapes in the chaos.
Yep. Karma Houdini.
Heinousness?
Has a similar attempted bodycount to Brockman, with some added gruesome touches.
Mitigating factors?
None. He's just a fanatic and a sadist.
Verdict?
Goku Black
Brock, Gruber and Buzzard
Gruber sounds like a good case of how an adaption can improve a character by a lot.
Edited by miraculous on Nov 16th 2018 at 2:36:35 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Beaky Buzzard.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to Gruber.
to Gruber based on the EP and yeah, both that and the beginning of Last Action Hero make me glad that they didn’t go with that ending when they made Die Hard.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 16th 2018 at 1:15:48 AM
What is the heinous standard for AA as I noticed both Redd and Engarde were taken down? Or did we actually find redeeming qualities for them?
And wouldn't Queen Ga'ran smash the HS since she's murdered like thousands.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
In preparation for the Law and Order de-potholings, I've changed the header a bit:
Although the Law & Order franchise features countless people who committed heinous crimes without remorse, many of them have a typical motive such as greed and envy, or sometimes even a good Freudian Excuse, or even a motive one can sympathize with. Some, however, serial killers and serial rapists especially, have the (dis)honor to be called a monster.
Primarily, this was so I wouldn't have to use Serial Killer or Serial Rapist every time it applied.
Seems like a WEIRD work, but I'll Masque.
Brockman and Buzzard.
Anton "Little Tony The Red" Gruber.
Redd it was determined I think fell into Offscreen Villainy. Ga'Ran has MANY more resources.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Brockman, Gruber and Buzzard
Gentle Laborer
To the previous candidates
to Mr. Whisper, Tubal Cain, Mr. Brockman, Antony "Little Tony" Gruber and the Black Buzzard.
Gruber and Buckskin duo.
Masque, Gruber, Brockman, and Buzzard.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Masque.
Why so serious?