During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Oops, sorry.
edited 3rd Jun '13 12:57:35 PM by SuperSaiyaMan
Foreign Troper
Vote for Owlman. I never saw anything tragic in him. He even dismisses Batman's claim that he has been a good guy once. He is an Omnicidal Maniac and a more than creepy Sociopath.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Try PMing Fighteer.
Party Crasher
I think Roose earned a lot of CM points in his latest appearance. His behaviour torwards Catelyn just before the massacre began was nothing but sadistic. Subtle and restrained sadism but sadism nevertheless.
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Have we ever talked about The Joker from The Dark Knight Returns Part 2? Google search is bringing up nothing. I know it's based on a comic book of the same name, but I haven't read it, and there's no mention of it in Joker's comic entry, plus, I've heard that they actually amped up the brutality for the movie.
Don't read this if you want to see the movie.
Okay, so here's what he does. He convinces his doctor to bring him on a talkshow to tell his story, after spending years in a near-vegetative state before Batman, uh.. returned. He murders the doctor on live tv, then uses a nerve gas to kill everyone else in the studio, which included an audience of more than 200 people. He then uses some sort of lipstick to take control of a congressman and make him call for a nuclear strike on the Soviets before making him fall to his death. Then, at a fairground, he kills a little boy's father in front of him, punches out his mother, and takes the boy hostage. When he gets away from Batman, he murders a police officer before going into the Tunnel of Love and indiscriminately shooting everyone inside. He kills about 17 people this way, laughing all the while, before Batman catches up to him and gives him a near-fatal beat down. Joker tells Batman that he did all of this just to make him lose control- to make people see Batman lose control and become afraid of him. Then he kills himself.
The crazy thing is, this is just the first 40 minutes of the movie. I guess the only thing counting against him is that he had a relatively small amount of screen time, but he's a major presence for those first 40 minutes. He's given absolutely no redeeming qualities, no Pet the Dog moments, shows no remorse, and has no Freudian Excuse apart from being insane, which he always is.
I don't know how the original comic compares to this, has anyone read it?
edited 3rd Jun '13 4:06:25 PM by Camberf
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, it's The Joker. When is he NOT a monster (sans that odd situation when he fought Red Skull)?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Dark Knight Returns is an elseworlds and one of the most famous. Given it's a Frank Miller version of the Joker? Yes, he fits, and the godawful All Star Batman And Robin give him more crimes (Miller has confirmed they take place in the same timeline)
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Elseworlds?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
From Laconic.Elseworld:
Already-established characters are put into a different continuity.
Elsewords were DC stories with What If? type scenarios. With The Dark Knight Returns, it's "What if Batman retired crime fighting and came back 10 years later?".
I read The Dark Knight Returns a few years ago. From what I remember, yes, the Joker qualifies.
edited 3rd Jun '13 5:26:48 PM by TVRulezAgain
Does he do the same kind of things he does in the movie?
He does precisely that
The Dark Knight Returns. Going to say two things about it's portrayal of The Joker.
First of all, Frank Miller should be shot for it. Turning The Joker into a Depraved Homosexual complete with lipstick and a transexual Nazi boyfriend named Bruno? Gag.
Second of all, he qualifies, just like every other version of the character since the eighties. Put the film version on the film page. I rather doubt we need a separate write-up for the comic version, anymore than we need a separate write-up for the various Alternate Universe Brainiacs who've shown up in Superman spinoffs (seriously, Brainiac manages to be a dick in the Mirror Universe that is the Crime Syndicate world).
edited 4th Jun '13 12:38:32 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
What do you expect Ambar? Frank Miller is a well known homophobe, sexist, and racist in the comic book industry.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
He's a notorious sexist (he didn't get hte nickname Frank "Whoreswhoreswhores" Miller for portraying women as anything other than prostitues) and racist (commented many times about how barbaric the middle east is and hwo it should be put in it's place, plus making Holy Terror). Not sure about him being homophobic but given how he writes women and how he feels about the Middle East I wouldn't put it past him.
No, the other one.
The Joker is one of them who's rather hard to place. I'd normally say what he does is played for laughs, but with him, it's rather that he plays the horrible things he does for laughs, which may or may not spread to the audience. However, that qualifies him for me. At least that specific version.
Frank Miller isn't exactly a paragon of respect and tolerance, but calling for him to be shot is less tolerant than he is.
Check out my fanfiction!
Homophobic...maybe, even how he seems to slot it as 'deviant' behavior in his works. As far as racism and sexism goes, absolutely. One need only read his more recent stuff to see that.
I don't think Ambar is engaging in anything more than a bit of a colorful turn of phrase...Miller on the other hand has supported countries literally bombed, so I think he's still a bit more...on the low end of the scale.
The Joker is a very hard character to write as a good Joker is funny and terrifying. His actions are played for horror but he can be genuinely amusing.
edited 4th Jun '13 12:59:34 AM by Lightysnake
I've increasingly come to dislike "X should be shot for being offensive" jokes (despite having made a few of my own in the past), given that there have been and are places where people were shot for being offensive. But yeah, Frank Miller is a real piece of work - and was never remotely as good a writer as advertised, to boot.
On topic: the Joker pretty much always counts in the modern era (he's maybe the poster child for why this trope isn't always mutually exclusive with Laughably Evil), and can we please stop starting new discussions when there's a ton still unresolved?
I'll second this motion. Can you list the unresolved discussions so we have a kick off point to keep track of and finish them?
It's going to take a while.
While we're prepping for Game Of Thrones after the season finale (and honestly, people need to cut it out with unmarked spoilers for things that have yet to be released globally, we have to wait a whole day in the Southern Hemisphere for the episode and it's just common courtsey to not spoil things that literally just happened), here are my thoughts on how things stand as of episode 9:
- Walder Frey counts barring any redeeming features next episode. He may have been slighted rather seriously by Robb refusing to marry one of his daughters and making them a queen (even though at the time the deal was made Robb wouldn't have been a King), but going so far as to slaughter every known living Stark besides Sansa at a wedding and casually announcing that his own wife was replacable, and visably enjoying the massacre.
- Roose Bolton fails to count since he doesn't do as much here. He only stabs Robb once to finish him off and doesn't take part in any of the slaughter of the others, and can be seen as booking it the second the massacre starts. So crossing the MEH but not induldging in sadism as of yet.
- The Frey who stabbed Talisa in the stomach over and over fails to count since I don't think the show even bothered naming him. He may count in the books, but here there's no indication he's not going to be a nameless extra like so many other characters who have been compressed or ommitted.
So onto the other issues:
- Joker from The Dark Knight Returns: Eaesy keep. I haven't even read/seen the the story and I know that some of the henious deeds he performs.
- Colonel Adrik Thorsen from the Star Trek novel: what's his motivations? He seems like he kills a lot of people, enough to qualify, but it doesn't feel like we're getting the whole picture.
- Owlman from Crisis on Two Earths seems like he has Gone Mad from the Revelation. How was it before he realised there was a multiverse?
- For the Azula Trilogy, Zhan Zheng would lack moral agency while Ilook would count given the tone of everything.
- Riki Oh The Story Of Ricky - the Warden seems like he'd count, although the movie sounds very over the top.
Will kill you
Can I make a movement to have Tenchi Muyo Daughter Of Darkness Yuzuha removed? She doesn't meet the requirements to be a complete monster. Even though she killed children, she frequently mentioned how it's Jurai's fault that she couldn't be happy. She also tortured and killed her daughter Mayuka when she broke out of her mind control.
"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Wait, how does any of that disqualify her?
I think he has my vote