Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I was never sure about Slade. True, he never showed much in the way of redeeming qualities (One good thing he didn't have to do but did anyway was join the Titans in fighting Trigon after he got his flesh and life back, but that was only because he wanted to show Trigon he was nobody's servant), but I thought the show explicity portrayed Trigon as being Eviler than Thou. But that's likely just 'cause Trigon's a literal force of evil while Slade is not. That Slade's a normal man probably makes him more heinous.

That alliance with the Titans was out of pragmatism. You can be pragmatic (in other words, smart), and still be a Complete Monster. Take Red Skull.

I know. He made it clear that he only wanted his life back, and then helped the Titans fight Trigon to save the world anyway because he wanted to stick it to Trigon for what he did to him. Nothing alturistic about his motives. He did have one line that suggested Even Evil Has Standards ("What Trigon has done is something even I wouldn't wish upon the world"), but considering he helped Trigon get that far in the first place, and admits to ruining lives for his own gain as being "what he does best", and is a Consummate Liar...it's pretty hard to trust. I still say Trigon's a bit more evil, but Slade is still a good keep.

edited 15th Apr '13 2:20:34 PM by AnewMan

So to clarify, a character can be placed in an Enemy Mine situation and still count?

If they do it purely egoistically yes, but most cases would fail the 2nd and 3th criterium.

I dunno. It's kind of like the Mayuri Kurostuchi thing that was discussed way back when. Are we supposed to root for Slade during his awesome moments against Trigon and his demons? The narrative seems to think so, even though he's still acknowledged to be a terrible person.

And maybe even the first if it's considered portraying them in a positive sort of way.

edited 15th Apr '13 3:13:13 PM by AnewMan

That was actually my argument against Mayuri. He's not a Villain Protagonist, who you root against despite being the viewpoint character. At least in the Szayel fight, it actually seemed that the narrative was portraying him as the one in the right (or at least the 'less wrong').

Being a CM doesn't mean you can't have cool moments. Slade attacks Trigon solely to show he's not his pawn.

Is it an awesome moment? Sure.

Does it disqualify him from being a CM? No.

I do not see how most involved in an Enemy Mine situation would fail the third one, if they are doing it because they have a common enemy, than they do not actualy regret anything. I can kinda see how they could fail the heinous standard though.

At least in the Szayel fight, it actually seemed that the narrative was portraying him as the one in the right (or at least the 'less wrong'

That's how I feel it is for Slade as well. The narrative was portraying Trigon as being Eviler than Thou, and thus Slade was the "less wrong" between the two villains, which is how he could get away with fighting on the Titans' side. I don't think this makes either Mayuri or Slade not Complete Monsters: it just makes the villains they're up against even worse Complete Monsters.

Though apparently Trigon was axed due to being a Generic Doomsday Villain. I'd contest that: there's nothing saying that some Generic Doomsday Villains can't also be Complete Monsters (like a recent keeper, the Nibiru Entity.) And Trigon is listed as a Complete Monster in the YMMV for the Teen Titans comics. IIRC, Trigon was somewhat worse in the animated series. There was some things in the comics that could suggest that Trigon, in his own way, loved his daughter. In the show? He comes out and explicitly states that he sees Raven as nothing but his tool: his "gem" that exists to bring him into the world of mortals, and he uses this knowledge to Mind Rape his daugher and break her down into a Heroic BSoD that ultimately makes her go with Slade and fulfill her purpose. The fact that Raven isn't killed by letting Trigon out but instead he revives her as a powerless little girl shows that he has some love for her, right? Nope: when facing Raven later, he says "I am your creator. Your master. You exist only to serve me. You survive only because I allow it! What hope can a mere child have of defeating her all-powerful father?" After this, Raven makes it perfectly clear that Trigon was never her father, and never really loved her. Trigon's last words to his daughter before she kills him are "Wretched, insignificant...", which again reinforces how little he really thinks of her. Add that to the fact that he's the biggest force of evil on the show (everyone fears and hates him, even Slade goes against him, he caused more death and destruction than Slade has, he's emotionally and mentally abusive to his daughter, turns the Titans' own dark sides against them for extra Mind Rape evulz, and is at one point sending out a hoarde of demons to destroy the rest of the entire universe), and I think there could be a solid case for Trigon making the cut as a Complete Monster, really.

edited 15th Apr '13 3:47:01 PM by AnewMan

The general consensus is Trigon is a Generic Doomsday Villain. He gets extremely little characterization and he's just kinda there. Roaring generic bad guy lines at Raven doesn't change that much. Also, in the comics, Trigon destroyed a lot of worlds, and never loved Raven at all. He takes her 'death' as a personal affront, but love for her as a person? Not there.

Trigon isn't more 'evil' than Slade, either. Slade is perfectly on board with his plans and only gets thrown against Trigon for personal gain. Slade is as heinous as he can be in his own tier

edited 15th Apr '13 3:51:27 PM by Lightysnake

Did you even read my post? I said that Trigon was a Generic Doomsday Villain, but that doesn't mean it's an automatic disqualifyer. Little characterization, sure, but not all C Ms do get a hefty amount of characterization. I listed the things that did characterize him up there, and it's all esentially pure evil. And just kinda there? He was the Big Bad of a whole season. You cannot overlook that just because Slade was his Dragon-in-Chief. (As for Comic Trigon, we see him destroy worlds, right? It's not just Off Screen Villainy?)

And remember, the Nibiru Entity recently got a pass into this Trope, and he also had very little characterization and by your logic was just "kinda there" since it was Pericles and his cohorts who were doing all the evil stuff until the end. The Entity was also a Generic Doomsday Villain (literally, seeing as Nibiru = Doomsday.) Pericles was, in some ways, just as heinous as the Entity was. What differates this case from Trigon and Slade was that the Entity was the reason for Pericles' evilness, whereas Slade was evil on his own long before Trigon, with or without Trigon. So I'd agree that Slade's more defenitely a more 'heinous' Complete Monster than Trigon, but still not more 'evil.' At least, I don't think the narrative wants us to think he is. Otherwise, the Enemy Mine situation makes no sense. (On Slade's part it does, since he's doing it for self-interest. But why would the Titans accept the team-up if Slade were truly more evil than Trigon?)

edited 15th Apr '13 3:59:51 PM by AnewMan

Anew Man, just search up the previous discussions on the Nibiru Entity. Previous discussion proves he isn't a Generic Doomsday Villain.

From what I understand, a GDV can NEVER qualify. Slade counts because 1 he is not a gdv (he has a personality in being a Faux Affably Evil Magnificant Bastard) and 2 he is every bit as bad as Trigon, sure Trigon is a lot more powerful than Slade but power does not equate evil. In terms of evil, Slade is just as bad, he willingly and happily helped Trigon end the world just so he could get his life restored. While Trigon was the mastermind, Slade was every bit as bad for helping him just to get his life restored.

Actual exchange:

Slade: With or without me, there was no stopping this

Robin: But you played a part, and just like everything else you have ever done, it's made people suffer!

Slade: it's what I do best.

How is he not a Generic Doomsday Villain? Sure he's not Made of Evil, but that's not a requirement for the trope. What was his personality? What were his goals? What did he gain from trying to devour the universe? What was he like at first and why did he turn so evil? Does he even have a name? None of these were relevent to the Entity: he was defined by the threat he posed, the evil stuff he did, and how evil he was. He was a Complete Monster no doubt, but also a Generic Doomsday Villain.

That's the exchange I referenced earlier. Why I said his one line that seemed to indicate Even Evil Has Standards doesn't fly when a few scenes later he admits to being a selfish, unrepentant sociopath who literally screwed the whole world over in order to get what he wanted.

edited 15th Apr '13 4:23:10 PM by AnewMan

A point in the favor of the Nibiru Entity was he also demonstrates personality and is the member of a normally peaceful species.

Trigon doesn't even have this. All we know is "big conquering evil red guy."

and "Why would the Titans accept the teamup?" I don't think that was quite the time to turn down anyone's help. The New Mutants worked with Selene against the Red Skull at one point and she's no less evil. Wolverine and Sabretooth occasionally team up, but Sabretooth is no less evil than the threat he's helping Logan with

edited 15th Apr '13 4:30:26 PM by Lightysnake

Again, I already stated that I know the Entity's not Made of Evil: he's a Fallen Angel gone worse than any of the rest of that species. But what personality did he have beyond being evil, sadistic, and power hungry? Aside from that, he also "roared generic bad guy lines" like Trigon did, and even caused an apocalypse like Trigon did. The big difference is that Nibiru Entity's apocalypse (that had him eating everyone) was more horrific than Trigon's (which just petrified everyone.)

Point taken about the teamup. I do think Slade is a Complete Monster, or at least borderline to one. I just also think that Trigon has a shot at making the cut too that was kind off brushed off on the grounds of him being a Generic Doomsday Villain. Again, is there anything saying a villain can't be both?

A couple of things. You can't have a "worse" Complete Monster. Not in moral terms. There is no moral difference between Slade and Trigon. The reason the narrative presents Slade winning out as better is because in terms of the power he has available to him, he is a lesser threat. Not a lesser jackass, just less capable of inflicting his jackassery on the world.

Similarly, in the Kurotsuchi discussion (which was, I thought, settled) the point was made that Kurotsuchi is not morally superior to Szayzel. His boss (Yamamoto) is morally superior to Szayzel's boss (Aizen). Hence why of the two of them, Kurotsuchi is the marginally preferrable option; there are more restrictions on what he can do.

On the subject of the Nibiru entity, I don't know if it is a Generic Doomsday Villain or not. The reason it was put on the list, is because it does all of the aforementioned awful things in a Scooby Doo cartoon. The shock value of that, more than anything else, is what led to its inclusion. Demonstrate that it lacks a personality and we'll cut it. Remember, saying "X is a Generic Doomsday Villain too" is not an argument for including Y; it's an argument for cutting X.

Lastly, comics!Trigon is included because he possesses an actual personality, has an impressively detailed rapsheet, and shows up again and again. TV!Trigon shows up once, does nothing beyond try to wreck the world, and then goes away.

EDIT: A while back I suggested cutting most of the Law And Order examples for Offscreen Villainy. Thoughts?

edited 15th Apr '13 5:14:45 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

So, since we seemed to be looking at the Monster.Live Action TV section I figured a rundown should be done of all the examples. The following shows have already been talked about so I'm excluding them from the list: Babylon 5, Blue Heelers, Bones, Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Cold Case, Dexter, Firefly.

Monster.Live Action TV Section A-F:

• Michael Cambius of All My Children: Alright, deciphering all of that he tries to steal corporate secrets for greed, threatens a woman’s mother to get her to spy for him, tries to rape two women and succeeds in raping another woman. I vote keep but he could probably use a rewrite.
• Angel
  • Ryan Anderson (just called the little boy on the page): Keep. I really think he’s as bad as he possibly can be for a child sociopath, what with trying to burn his sister alive multiple times and being so evil that the demon trying to possess him was left in an And I Must Scream situation trapped inside the kid's body.
  • Darin McNamara: Cut. He’s fairly standard for the series.
  • Billy Blim: Keep. As… masterfully subtle as his characterization is he’s still probably the most repugnant one-shot villains in the series.
• The Demons of Angel o Demonio: Cut, species.
• Natalie Buxton of Bad Girls: Depending on what she does onscreen she sounds like she might be a keeper. Her entry would need a rewrite though.
• Arkie Ragan from Bangkok Hilton: Cut. He seduces women, gets them to run drugs for him, and abandons one of them to death. He sounds like a callous slimeball but doesn’t strike me as CM material.
• Battlestar Galactica:
  • Brother Cavil: Keep.
  • Helena Cain: Keep.
  • Phelan: Keep, but cut the second bullet since it’s just grave dancing.
• Owen from Being Human: Well he kills his fiancé, but that’s all that’s listed. He doesn’t sound bad enough. Cut.
• Mr. Cannon from 90210: Serial rapist and attempted murderer. Keep.
• Raiker from Blakes 7: Abusive to his inmates, a rapist and murderer. Keep. Cut the grave-dancing line at the end though.
• The child-killing drug dealers from Breaking Bad: Cut, no groups. If they have a leader maybe he can count, but cut them all for now.
• Carla from Burn Notice: She’s an operative for Management so her crimes would be on his head. Say cut, especially because Ansem, the man who arranged most of the events of the series tops her in heinousness by a long shot.
• God Neros from Choujinki Metalder: Genocidal would-be conqueror who tries to arrange his friend’s murder. Keep, but lose the capslock surrounding him trying to kill his friend and the grave-dancing.
• CI
  • News Reporter: Depends. The entry says every villain from the show counts. While this is a load of crap, it may mean the show has a high heinous standard. On-the-fence until new information comes up.
  • Walter White: Aside from the fact it’s a Zero Context Example, the fact that the entry says he’s a Villain Protagonist who “develops” into one of these has me doubting he counts. Vote cut.
• City Homicide:
  • Dr. Sean Macready: He murders the children of adulterous women then seems to drive them to suicide. The one thing that may get him disqualified is the ambiguity of whether or not he really did kill his own children in a similar manner or if it was an accident. If he wasn’t involved in his kids’ deaths then cut. If he started the fire, keep.
  • Brett Semple: Thinking cut. He does murder one man in cold blood but killing the police who come to arrest him arguably isn’t that heinous since it’s “self-defense.”
  • Frances Deerborne: Tries to murder her husband’s entire family and himself later to get his fortune. Sounds like a keeper.
  • Billy Pierce: Cut. Though he frames a woman for corruption and murders his own son, the entry implies he cares about his brother.
  • Daniel Worthington: Serial rapist. Keep.
• The Closer:
  • Philip Stroh: An Amoral Attorney who defends sex offenders and is a serial rapist himself. Keep.
  • Roger Stimple: Child rapist and murderer. Keep.
• Shane Casey from CSINY: Cut. It says pretty much nothing about him.
• Deadwood
  • Francis Wolcott: Since he was a sexual sadist who murdered women I could see keeping him if his entry was beefed up.
  • George Hearst: Nothing of his crimes are mentioned, just that, apparently, he’s a bad, bad man who became a Karma Houdini. Cut.
• Desperate Housewives:
  • Gloria Hodge: Keep.
  • Patrick Logan: Keep.
  • Barbara Orlofsky: Cut. Her abuse turned her son into a Serial Killer but it doesn’t sound bad enough when compared to the murderers above.
• Farscape
  • Captain Selto Durka: Keep.
  • Natira: Keep.
  • Kaarvok: Keep.
  • Captain Jenek: Cut, doesn’t sound as horrible as the others listed even if he did kill an unborn child.
  • Commandant Grayza: Keep.
  • Tauza: Keep.
• Fringe:
  • The Nazi from The Bishop Revival: Develops a toxin to wipe out all Holocaust survivors and their descendants. Keep.
  • Alternate Brandon: On-the-fence since others sound worse.
  • Morgan Steig: A weapons developer who release a flesh-melting toxin on an air plane to show off his product and murders his twin brother to show his dedication. Keep.
  • David Esterbrook: Turns women into radiation-emitting bioweapons and tests it out on a café of people. Keep.
  • David Robert Jones: Cut. Says he’s a Well-Intentioned Extremist.
  • Captain Windmark: Cut. He Mind Rapes Walter but the part about doing the same to countless others is supposition. He fails the heinous standard compared the genocidal Nazi and the two weapons developers.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: If some Law And Order villains do nothing but Offscreen Villainy, I think I'd be alright with cutting them. Which ones are they?

edited 15th Apr '13 6:01:16 PM by OccasionalExister

You can't have a "worse" Complete Monster. Not in moral terms.

In some people's opinion, there could be "worse" Complete Monsters than others in the same series. Even though in moral terms they're just equally bad. Basically, in personal terms one might seem worse than the other(s), but you're correct about moral terms. (For example, I could say Ramsay Bolton is worse than Joffrey Baratheon. That would be a matter of opinion. Morally, both characters are equally monstrous.)

Not a lesser jackass, just less capable of inflicting his jackassery on the world.

But if he was given greater power, he probably would. Like we discussed with Emperor Joker a while back.

On the subject of the Nibiru entity, I don't know if it is a Generic Doomsday Villain or not. The reason it was put on the list, is because it does all of the aforementioned awful things in a Scooby-Doo cartoon. The shock value of that, more than anything else, is what led to its inclusion. Demonstrate that it lacks a personality and we'll cut it. Remember, saying "X is a Generic Doomsday Villain too" is not an argument for including Y; it's an argument for cutting X.

I do agree that by any Scooby Doo standards, even in Mystery Incorporated, the Entity counts. And even though I think he lacks personality when compared to the likes of Pericles, I would not want him cut.

TV!Trigon shows up once, does nothing beyond try to wreck the world, and then goes away.

Techincally, before showing up to wreck the world, he Mind Raped his daughter. Between wrecking the world and going away, however, he did little but sit on his butt, though he was attempting to spread his conquest throughout the universe before he got down to fighting the Titans. Still not as heinous as Slade, though.

edited 15th Apr '13 5:32:24 PM by AnewMan

The thing for me, though...when you demonstrate moral agency to a villain, it can pull them out of being a GDV. In the instance of the Nibiru Entity we know its race is normally friendly and kind, so it made a deliberate choice to be evil

Let me be clear on Trigon.

He forced his blood-born daughter to use herself as a sacrificial lamb (not the trope type, that is) in order to cause the end of the world as we know it. His cultists raised her to believe that she would be a human-sized weapon of mass destruction, one devoid of positive qualities, all of her life, and he eventually succeeds in getting her to do so.

That's pretty damning.

For comics Trigon I guess, since I assume we see on-panel flashbacks to that. In the show, it's all Offscreen Villainy.

when you demonstrate moral agency to a villain, it can pull them out of being a GDV.

I don't recall "no moral agency" being a requirement for a GDV. That's Made of Evil. Generic Doomsday Villain is a villain whose character is defined solely by the immense threat they pose to the good guys. For example, Fire Lord Ozai has been called a Generic Doomsday Villain by some fans, and he totally has moral agency. It's just that he's an abusive, genocidal sociopath, which is what also makes him a Complete Monster.

edited 15th Apr '13 5:50:27 PM by AnewMan

I meant TV Trigon.

Lemme reiterate. In the show, we see the entire Earth deform into a molten wasteland directly because of something he did when he roared. All animals, including humans, turned into immobile, gray statues, which was the shows' way of signaling death (see Terra). So that means he personally committed genocide, not jsut on humans, but on all life in the Earth sans the Titans.

edited 15th Apr '13 5:48:30 PM by Serocco

Yeah, but... why did he do that? He destroys things; that's his entire character.