During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
What a bizarre coincidence... I watched a Seagal film earlier who also had a serial killer called the Family Man, with almost the exact MO. No one in the film counted, ultimately.
I'll give Chameleon a yes.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Chameleon
Caesar
@Scraggle: Woah, that's....trippy. If I may ask, what disqualified him from counting?
The novel's Family Man was abused along with his siblings as a child by his father, with their mother never doing anything bout it, and so he has fantasies where he kills his father for the abuse, his mother for her inactivity, and his siblings to prevent them from turning into someone like himself. He then enacts these fantasies onto families.
So that's THIS one's disqualifier. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Well, he only appears once, he's way too mentally shaky, most of his crimes are offscreen, and he lets his hostage go when asked, so... a multitude of disqualifiers. There's actually another character who's replicating the original Family Man's deeds, but he fails to pass the overall heinous standard. The film's called The Glimmer Man, by the way.
Wild Child
Chameleon.
Chameleon
to the Chameleon.
What a piece of work.
Well, I'm completely out of my element. A day (?) or so away, and the EP for Alduin has been done? Anyway, I'll him, but I've heard that there's some debate over whether that text is canon or not.
Oh, looking things up... there apparently is a Family Man who counts, from Hellblazer. Wonder if there are any other Family Mans out there worth a look, to be frank. There's another one from Fear Itself.
edited 18th Feb '17 9:49:35 PM by Scraggle
I'll have three up within the next few days if all goes well.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Scraggle: I think you and Ravok are probably second and third, in some order, for most candidates approved (Lighty's obviously first). Chameleon.
Third, likely... I propose a lot but Ravok does so with a frequency I don't think anyone but Lighty matches. Result of us consuming so much media, I think.
Not meaning to be egotistical, but yeah, I've probably got the most proposed...
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm STILL not convinced Lighty's not a robot or something .
Incidentally, this would be at least the second Chameleon.
Lighty, any way to expand Koganei's writeup?
edited 18th Feb '17 11:40:16 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
To be fair? Time, a supply of free time, and a devotion to indulging as much media as can be viewed during that free time lends itself to more than a few candidates. Regardless, it's a good hobby.
edited 19th Feb '17 12:03:31 AM by Scraggle
Caesar
I'm legit not sure if I should feel impressed with myself that I'm considered by some to be one of the most frequent proposers on the thread in the one and a half years I've been here.....or if I should feel ashamed for the same reason.
One and a half years. I'm considered such on a thread that's been going for more than 7....and I've been here almost two. This is not me tooting my own horn or anything. I'm really not sure how I should feel about this in a "Does this guy have no social life?" sort of way.
Cause I do have one. I'm not overcompensating or anything. Nope. Nadda. I just....read really fast. Yuuuup, that's it. I'm so lonely
edited 19th Feb '17 12:14:16 AM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
You're quite constructive to the trope and the thread as a whole, Ravok. Keep it up. Same goes to you, Lighty.
To be frank, I think the only think I'm really impressed about in the time I've been active here (about two-and-a-half years, I think? Joined somewhere in July 2014) is how many of my characters have actually been keepers... I've been dubious about a lot of them. Marsh, Gray, even the recently-proposed Alduin, and so on.
I wish I could propose more, and my... niche tastes really should lend themselves to prolificity, but I run into the problem of being unable to sit still for two hours and also being a college student.
I'd add to the above discussion that contributing to the thread itself takes up free time. I consume tons of media - not as much as Lighty, but several hours a day - but I almost never convert that into proposing characters, although that's partly not time-related.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I've also proposed numerous characters who DIDN'T get approved. Though nearly all of them, with the exception of one (Pablo Vargas from Criminal Minds; even that one, though, I can see now), I myself was unsure on. And I've been introduced to NUMEROUS works thanks to this thread. One it worked both ways: Department 19 was mentioned here, I read it, and then got another character from that worked approved. I remember one of my first things on this thread (3 or 4 years ago (!)) alphabetizing the Marvel comics page. And getting the entries in the current format (Work: Entry).
edited 19th Feb '17 1:05:49 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Now, in terms up writeups? I'll knock off some now:
- Out for Justice: Richie Madano is an unstable, drug-abusing criminal who sets off the events of the story by brutally murdering his girlfriend Roxanne and then shooting the cop that slept with her dead in full view of his wife and children. Richie soon thereafter engages in a pursuit of thrills and fun while being pursued by the deceased cop's partner Geno Felino, blowing the brains out of a woman who grows impatient with him, coaxing a terrified retired prostitute into sleeping with him through the faint implication of violence, murdering people for drugs, abusing his weak-willed brother, gunning down his own disabled associate, and fatally shooting a group of mobsters sent to whack him. Richie is so pointlessly and randomly violent even his own family fear for their lives if they were to ever get on his bad side.
- Random Acts of Violence: The unnamed serial killer is a deranged fan of the Slasherman comic book who decides to take the eponymous' characters preaching to heart and engage in a killing spree of his own. Initially started by mutilating and dismembering eight woman around the country side while Slasherman's artists Todd and Ezra go on a nationwide tour, the killer then goes off to brutally murder several more people – including children – leaving their body parts and smoking cars behind him, as well as three more people he deposits in a comic book shop. The killer eventually decides to hurt the artists themselves by attacking and brutally killing Todd's girlfriend, then kidnapping Todd himself and forcing him to witness footage of him dismembering his girlfriend. The killer then instructs Todd to illustrate what he's seen and publish it, with the threat of skinning him alive and chopping him into pieces. A psychotic madman who considers death and violence to be unironic forms of art, the killer manages to stand out as truly depraved despite the lack of information about him.
- The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim: Alduin himself, the World-Eater and the firstborn of Top God Akatosh, forsakes his duty as Eater of Worlds to instead pursue a campaign of destruction and conquest to sate his own ego. Responsible for the corruption of the Leaper King into the Daedric Prince of destruction, Mehrunes Dagon, during one of his earlier attempts to devour the world in entirety, Alduin ultimately decides to conquer Nirn instead of destroy it and subjects mortal life to tyrannic rule under the reign of him and his dragon brethren. After Felldir the Old accidentally casts Alduin into the fourth era utilizing an Elder Scroll, Alduin decides to destroy Nirn there and then before his allotted time, razing Helgen to start and resurrecting his fallen dragon brethren to cause even further havoc across Skyrim. After being defeated once by the Dragonborn, Alduin deserts the battle and violates the code of honor of his own species, fleeing into Sovngarde and devouring the souls of the fallen within to sate himself. Alduin ignores his divine duty to instead indulge in his own limitless megalomania and is ultimately little more than an arrogant, cowardly sadist of a god in the skin of a jet-black dragon.
- Fatale: The Bishop is the ancient, ageless servant of the eldritch old gods, who pledges his existence to providing sustenance to his masters by wandering across the Earth in various forms. Engaging in regular ritual sacrifice – some of which involve the lives of dozens of infants tied to a tree and left to rot – and lording over servants who have cast aside their own humanity to serve him, many of whom he kills for slights, Bishop pursues violent delights to enthrall himself in his early years, awakening once after the 1906 earthquake to fatally beat a pleading old man trapped under rubble and soon after engaging in a spree to murder as many people as he could before sunrise. After an attempt to sacrifice the immortal femme fatale “Jo” Josephine, Bishop moves after to San Fracisco in 1956, tearing the unborn baby out of a pregnant woman and savagely killing a group of mobsters to tempt crooked cop Walter Booker. Blinded shortly after, Bishop arises in the form of a cult leader named Hansel in the 1970s, where he precedes more cult violence, regularly sells a woman named Suzy to be raped, and leads an attack on Jo's home which ends with her caretaker and current lover dead and the house burned down. Finally arising in the 1990s to 2014 as an executive named Mr. Sommerset, Bishop continues his attempt to sacrifice Jo – murdering scores of people and lounging in their corpses or bathing in their blood in his off-time – and finally resorts to torturing and killing Walt's nephew Nicolas in front of her. With no low he will not stoop to either to amuse himself or to provide for his gods, Bishop is just a monster within as he is outside.
Baal, Isaacs, The Chameleon and... Alduin? OK.
I never thought I'd approve of Aldy. I always thought his divine nature led to him being compelled to fulfill his role, even before the alotted time. But the EP seems to suggest he is just abusing his position as a God of Destruction to do whatever the fuck he wants, acting way outside his own authority. So yeah. Like, I'm not averse to having a Go D from Dragon Ball count, for example, as long as they're dicks who take things way further than they should (though that probably won't happen). I dunno much about Elder Scrolls lore, however. I almost wonder if we should ask for advice on the TES thread or even outside the site on whether or not Aldy has Agency. But, for now, I'll support his inclusion.
I think Chammy stabbing protag girl might have been handled better if he was just so stressed he just didn't think it through, like when he killed the guy who cut him up instead of dragging his pain out.
I am constantly amazed by how much the most prolific on this thread do. I barely find any good candidates and I have no life whatsoever. You all da real MVP.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
I agree with nrjxll. I also try to consume an absurd amount of media, but I tend to not have much time for it. It's difficult to consume different forms of media when you're in college and have to devote all your time to that instead. Not that proposing CMs is more important, but how can you not take an interest in something when someone comes to this forum and says "Here's this really nasty badass villain who does all these horrible things in this comic/book you have not read or this movie/TV show you've never seen"?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Or, say, Dog Soldier, since the premise seems awesome (and it is indeed as awesome as it sounds), or Gorn-filled comics like Absolution or Caligula.
Alrighty, let's finish this thing that I tried to start months back then forgot about. Ugh. >_<
Who is he?
The Chameleon (So original) is the main antagonist of the Crime Novel (I'm bringing it back, baby!) The Watson Girl.
The Chameleon is, shockingly, a Serial Killer, and quite an evil one at that.
What has he done?
To give you an idea of the kind of guy we're dealing with, when he was in college, the Chameleon jumped a fellow student and brutally raped and assaulted her. When the next day he heard she had reported it, he was outraged that she did, because statistics say that assault victims are often too afraid to come forward, and he just HAD to grab the ONE girl that would (The guy is hilariously over-the-top in how nonchalant he treats stuff like this).
After evading capture for this crime, the Chameleon was a normal dude for the longest time, however he always felt rather empty in life, like he was missing something. That would change quite soon.
Working as a manager in a small business, the Chameleon's business partner, Allen Watson, asked him to find some way to cut costs in the manufacturing department, and so the Chameleon did just that: By eliminating product proof checking, it would cut costs significantly.
Unfortunately, this lack of testing led to a house fire due to one of their lamps, and Watson ordered a huge investigation to determine how it slipped past the radar. Of course, the Chameleon couldn't have THAT, as it would lead them right to him, and he would no doubt be fired. So, after noticing on the news that a local Serial Killer known as the Family Man, whose M.O. was to shoot up entire families, had recently struck just a few miles from his area, the Chameleon made his move.
The Chameleon waltzed into Watson's house, shot the man dead, then chased his two boys (Both 7 or 8 years old) upstairs before executing them. He then walked in on Watson's 6 year old daughter playing with LEG Os, and did the same to her.
When cornering Watson's wife, the Chameleon noticed...he was enjoying this, not just out of a "gonna get away with it" angle, but from a "What a RUSH" one. So, the Chameleon prompted to instead stab the Watson wife to death rather than simply shoot her. He left the home, only to discover his horrifying mistake: There were 3 Watson children, yes, but there were two girls and one boy, not the other way around.
Too late to head back inside, the Chameleon fled the scene, learning later that the other boy had just been a friend visiting, and that the youngest daughter, Laura, had hid when she heard the gunshots. However, seeing as the police pinned it on the Family Man, the Chameleon decided it was too risky to try and kill Laura now, so he let her be.
Of course, this was just the beginning for the Chameleon. Now that he knew what killing felt like, especially of women, he wanted, no, he needed to have more. So, waiting a few months, he went into a house, murdered the husband and child there, then spent 4 hours torturing the wife to death.
The Chameleon did the same to another household, torturing the wife for 6 hours this time, AND raping her as he got more and more bold.
All of this was pinned on the Family Man, and, when said Family Man was caught, the Chameleon realized that the jig was up.....for family murders. Now he could begin his OWN killing spree. Thing is, he didn't know WHAT he wanted his "style" to be, so he tried a bunch!
The first girl was an addict the Chameleon lured in to sex before turning it into a brutal rape then murder. The second one he tied up in a motel room then tortured and raped for hours before killing her. Same for the third.
The fourth he caught in her home, nailed her to a wall, then spent hours torturing and raping before killing. Fifth he tortured and branded with fire pokers for nearly a whole day before raping and killing. Sixth he spent hours strangling, then reviving, over and over before stabbing her to death.
Number 7 he carved symbols all over her body with a knife before killing her. The eighth he flogged for hours, flaying her alive, then killed her. Rape was included in both of these.
Then....he goofed up. He walked in a on a girl, trying to hold her down, only for the girl's grandmother to walk in and push her Life Alert necklace button thingy. The Chameleon had to settle for slashing both of their throats then fleeing.
Deciding he would NEVER make the same mistake again, the Chameleon took to kidnapping women, taking them to a shack in the forest, then raping and torturing them for days on end before killing them. How many he does this to is never stated, but it's alot.
A creepy little thing the Chameleon does for all his victims (When he has time to), is pour molding clay stuff into one of their knife wounds, let it harden, then remove it as a souvenir. He then glues said plaster onto his living room chandelier, which to the outside eye just makes it look like a bunch of star-shaped shadows on the walls, while the Chameleon will know what they REALLY are....
One day, when the Chameleon was driving home, some redneck cut him off in a parking lot. The Chameleon proceeded to cut HIM off....on a deserted roadway. Minute later redneck is laying in a ditch with his skull caved in, which the Chameleon IMMEDIATELY regrets.
Oh, and not cause of anything nice. He wanted to follow the dude home, rape and torture whatever friends or family were at his house while forcing him to watch, THEN execute him. He just lost his temper when said redneck started screaming in his face.
Anywho, by the present, the Chameleon learns that Laura Watson, now about 20 years old, and Tess Winnett (Our detective heroine) are coming out to reveal that the Family Man likely DIDN'T kill the Watson family. This....doesn't sit well with the Chameleon, as he begins screaming at Laura's picture over his TV set asking her why she's determined to ruin his life (Also hilariously blames everyone for mundane stuff or logical stuff that will endanger him).
The Chameleon hires a hitman to kill her and make it look like an accident so as to NOT make it look like someone's trying to keep her quiet, but of course, said hitman fails. The Chameleon then makes a mental note that, next free time he gets, he's going to find as many people this hitman cares about, then he's going to tie the man to a chair and force him to watch as he rapes, tortures, and murders his loved ones in front of him before killing him as well.
But, before he can get to that, the Chameleon loses all the subtlety he has tried to keep going, and straight up stabs Tess in her home. He leaves her to die (Without double checking for some stupid reason), kidnaps another woman, and locks her in his shack, planning to come back tomorrow and start his three-day weekend off RIGHT!
Unfortunately for the Chameleon, his cover's been blown, and he's revealed to be none other than Bradley Welsh, the same man who took little Laura in after her family's murder, which was to cover his own butt and make him above suspicion.
Welsh tries to flee, but a wounded Tess manages to shoot him down as he tries to run away. The novel then ends like 3 paragraphs later...WHAT DO CRIME NOVELS HAVE AGAINST GENUINE EPILOGUES?
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Nope. A psychopath who literally compares his victims to apples (metaphorically, before anyone starts spouting the insanity disqualifier), makes claims that, just as humans kill animals without remorse, he shouldn't be punished just because he kills humans, as he's OBVIOUSLY higher on the food chain due to his ruthlessness, and he outright states that he only has a family in order to cover up his real identity.
And, in case it wasn't obvious with his hiring a hitman to kill her, he has literally only lust and hatred for Laura, and notes that he's spent the past 15 years WISHING he could torture, rape, and kill her, but had to keep acting the loving father to avoid suspicion. What a prick.
Even his initial killing motive was BS.
"Woah, my boss is gonna get me fired! I'mma kill him and his whole family. What? No I don't feel bad about killing the rest of his family. That's on him for ever crossing me."
....he literally says "That's on him" when talking about killing his boss' family. The rest was an exaggeration, but he says that specific line word-for-word....
Heinousness?
Ok, THIS might cause some hesitations, but just bear with me.
The Family Man? He has around....90 murders. 25 of those being children.
Now, before you start disqualifying him for lack of heinousness, let's keep in mind a few things.
First, the Chameleon HAS to restrain himself from killing a hell ton of people, solely because of his position as a "pillar of the community" and to avoid any "There's a Serial Killer on the loose!" accusations. He firmly states that he WISHES he could kill more, but he literally cannot without being caught, unlike the Family Man who is such a nobody that he can disappear for weeks on end without anyone really noticing.
Next up, consider this: The Family Man executed his victims. No, I'm not trying to downplay murder, but he literally would walk in and cap each member of the family with a bullet to the head without any pain or suffering (Deliberately on his part, I might add). The Chameleon....doesn't do that. Yeah, he does it to the victims he could care less about, but he spends hours raping, torturing, and murdering the women in extremely grotesque ways, and constantly makes plans to rape and torture guys' family members in front of them for so much as slighting him.
The Family Man fully acknowledges what an evil man he is. But even he is disgusted by the Chameleon's actions, as are every other character in the story.
So, yeah, I think due to the sheer sadism exhibited by him, he makes it. Not as high a bodycount, but his methods undeniably eclipse the Family Man's.
Also, none of Family's Man's crimes focused on really. They all hapoened in the past, we see no onscreen killing from him or even a vivid description of some of his kills. The Chameleon has ALL that, especially seeing as quite a few of the chapters are from his perspective, as if he's writing a diary. A very detailed diary. >_>
Final Verdict?
I say Keep. Family Man's crimes are too offscreen/painless IMO to measure up to the Chameleon's wicked, evil, and petty raping and torturing for kicks while wishing he could do even more, and he has literally no excuse for his crimes, even the Watson killing was so petty it wasn't justifiable in the slightest.
edited 18th Feb '17 4:54:17 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!