Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Gotcha, ambar. Edited his entry a bit.

Felix Faust looks good.

Re: DC And Vertigo

• Joker, Black Mask and Zsaz: Keep.
• Camille: Cut for failing the heinous standard. Being a particularly nasty Rich Bitch isn’t enough to qualify you in a series filled to the brim with mass-murdering psychopaths.
• Flamingo: Cut. Apparently he was brainwashed into becoming what he is, meaning he lacks moral agency.
• Dr. Hurt: Needs to be greatly expanded if kept, because a lot of Batman villains try to destroy the caped crusader mind, body and soul. Also moral agency sounds impaired if he's fused to a weapon of Darkseid's. I’m leaning towards cut.
• Tiger Shark: Cut. Fails the heinous standard.
• James Jr.: Keep, he sounds particularly heinous, even for Batman.
• Major Force: Keep but cut the Eiling bit since it’s irrelevant.
• Mongul II: Keep but cut the last part that grave-dances about his demise. Although, the original Mongul isn’t on the page, so if he surpasses his son in some way I may change my vote.
• Diro Yat: If the entire planet is as bad as Diro, then he should probably be cut. Sounds like Values Dissonance for Diro’s species.
• Ursa: If she loves/cares about Zod, cut her.
• Reactron: Cut. A Psycho for Hire is generic in this series.
• Sam Lane: Keep but cut the part about him committing suicide, it’s irrelevant.
• Zod & Braniac: Keep.
• Lex Luthor: Undecided.
• Dr. Psycho, Alkyone, and Genocide: Keep Psycho and Genocide. Alkyone doesn't sound so heinous in comparison, so I vote cut. Side note: If Genocide was created, but not to be evil, hopefully her creators weren’t the one who gave her the name Genocide. “What a lovely baby, what should we name her?” “How about Genocide?” “…” “What? It was my mother’s name!”
• Vandal Savage: Keep.
• Secret Six Entries: Keep. But take out part where karma catches up with Dwarfstar.
• Grodd, Darkseid, Faust, Dr. Light: Keep.
• Preacher Examples: Keep Marie and Jody. Cut TC and God.
• Anton Arcane: Keep.
• The Brujeria: Sounds like a group. Cut.
• Hansel: Keep.
• Unwritten: Keep Pullman. Cut the Ancient Conspiracy. Expand or cut Pauly Bruckner.
• Tao: Expand or cut.
• Prometheus: Much as I hate to say it, if he cared about his parents then he should be cut.
• Black Manta: Keep the pre-New 52 version.
• Reverse Flash: Keep.
• Super-boy Prime: Undecided.
• Alexander Luthor: Already voted to cut because of being a Well-Intentioned Extremist.
• Skinner Sweet: Keep.
• Martian Manhunter examples: Keep.
• Nekron: Keep. Johns’s intention was that he ran on Blue-and-Orange Morality, but in actual depiction he seems more like a sadist who understands conventional morality just fine, he just doesn’t care.
• Blackest Night examples: Keep D’Kay. If Deathstorm lacks moral agency then cut.
• One Hundred Bullets example: Keep Lono, but would prefer expanded. Expand or cut Augustus Medici.

As I promised lightysnake, here's a proposed rewrite for Dr. Destiny:

• Dr. Destiny, aka John Dee, within the pages of Neil Gaiman's The Sandman transforms from a standard, somewhat campy supervillain into a nightmare inducing lunatic. When first seen Destiny comes across as a harmless, even somewhat pitiable, man. This impression goes out the window when he, for no real reason, casually murders the woman who had given him a ride, made pleasant small talk with him, and given him a coat. Once the good doctor regains the Materioptikon, a ruby used by Morpheus to create reality from the fabric of dreams, Destiny shows off just how bad he truly is. Sitting in a diner, over a twenty-four period Destiny begins steadily driving the establishment's patrons and employees mad. He makes them have sex with each other, mutilate themselves, and torture and kill each other. At one point he gives them their minds back and when they demand to know why he's doing this to them, he responds, "Because I can." By the time he's finished all of the diner's inhabitants are dead. All while this was going on, Dr. Destiny was using the power of the ruby to drive everyone on the planet mad. One disturbing instance had him making a kids' show host tell his viewers to slice open their wrists. When Morpheus asks Destiny what his goal is now, Destiny replies that at first he wanted to rule but now he wants to destroy the world and dance in the wreckage.

edited 22nd Jan '13 3:51:17 PM by OccasionalExister

Jut reposting my Anton Arcane entry:

• Anton Arcane is a scientist turned sorcerer, obsessed with immortality and its secrets. First seen attempting to steal the Swamp Thing's body, Arcane failed and died in the attempt. His soul, however, returned from hell to steal the body of his niece, Abigail Arcane's husband, Matthew Cable. In the guise of Matthew, Anton raped Abigail and consigned her soul to hell in his place. In his new position on earth, Arcane attempted to drive reality itself to insanity, using the souls of resurrected serial killers to terrorize the innocent; Arcane glories in the chaos as the innocent succumb to homicidal urges, and the monsters run rampant, gleefully mocking Swamp Thing over Abby's consignment to hell until Swamp Thing was able to rescue her and banish Arcane to hell again. In the New 52, Arcane has returned as bad as ever. A subject of the force of natural corruption, The Rot, Arcane lives to corrupt and decay whatever he can. He takes brutal delight in the death of the innocent, and seeks to drive Abigail further into insanity and corruption while seeking the destruction of Swamp Thing- and with him, the natural order of earth.

Refer back to the previous page for a Hansel expansion as well. For Genocide, I also believe she chose the name herself.

Alkyone though...I think she's an example of bad as she can possibly be. She doesn't have the sexual element, but she's black hearted evil and thinks nothing of killing children or destroying the entire Amazon race

edited 22nd Jan '13 3:32:43 PM by Lightysnake

Ah, I see now, my mistake. The rewrites for Anton Arcane, the first Black Mask @7332, Zsaz, Hansel and Felix Faust @7346 all look good. As does Ambar's rewrite of Commander Blanx @7350.

Re Kiria: Following the arguements for and against him, I believe that Kiria should be cut. There's just far too much ambiguity surrounding his motives, the extent of his crimes, and his feelings for Hokuto for me to support his inclusion.

edited 22nd Jan '13 3:52:00 PM by OccasionalExister

@7346 So what you're saying is, when you said you would stop, you didn't mean it. Got it.

For the rewrites - Zsasz looks good, there's still natter in James Gordon Jr.'s entry (you don't need to describe his dad in there, and scaring his sister is fluff), I did mean Junior instead of Ragdoll, Jr. (got confused because of how many characters are just called "Junior" across all media), I'm still inclined to think that Mr. Smyth overshadows Grendel (particularly if the latter doesn't get very far in his attempts), Black Manta really needs expansion on what he does that isn't related to Aquaman or should be cut, I'd cut Augustust Medici for loving his son (even if he loved power more), Hansel needs more expansion as to what he did after joining the Adversary (since Fables are as strong as their stories are popular, Gretel's death doesn't quite have the same impact), the rewrite on Felix Faust is good, and I'm fine with including a rewritten version of Vandal Savage.

@7350 Ah, right, Blanx... you have to keep in mind, we're officially at the point where I'm frankly amazed that I remember as many of the examples as I do. Though I'd say he was a Bronze Age character - I'm a bit more conservative about the term Silver Age (though that's still harsh for the Bronze Age).

@7353 Excellent rewrite of Dr. Destiny.

@7354 I'm actually inclined to only include pre-52 Arcane based on that; the later incarnation sounds to be completely subservient to The Rot.

No, I said I'd stop arguing with you. If someone else brings it up, I reserve the right to respond. You don't need to be passive aggressively insulting here.

James Jr: It lets one know he's The Commissioner Gordon's son, and scaring Barbara is set up, though I should also put in his creepy trophy habit.

Manta: does he really do much unrelated to Aquaman? I also can't think of a villain who killed a hero's infant son slowly and painfully, either. I mean, usually he's killing people. Tried to poison the ocean a coupla times and gas out Atlantis, too. Tried to murder his own son, too

Grendel: Cut him. Just eats some people, really. And threatens to rape Catman's infant son

Augustus: Truthfully, it might be a MAX Kingpin example. Loved him until he had to make the call, then realized he didn't. Augustus isn't remotely aggrieved at Benito's death. Though I don't mind snipping him and rewriting Lono if this isn't convincing.

Hansel: Believe it or not, Gretel stayed dead. They even got rid of her body. And the important thing is Hansel sure intended to kill her permanently. As the Inquisitor General, he mainly runs a reign of terror, stamping out 'unauthorized' sorcery.

For Arcane: Actually it seems The Rot might even be subservient to Arcane now.

I'll do a new writeup for Tao soon as well. He's from Sleepwalker in the Wild Storm world, so we should judge him independently to those.

edited 22nd Jan '13 4:25:53 PM by Lightysnake

Re:Kiria, my opinion matches Ambar pretty much exactly. The ambiguity over the possible altruism of the rescue is similar to the Handsome Jack/Angel relationship that was discussed earlier in the thread (which was decided to be a disqualifying factor even if it could easily be interpreted as purely a protection of interest).

edited 22nd Jan '13 4:38:04 PM by Crowley

I've heard it argued that Blanx actually serves as the marker between the silver and bronze ages. "And So My World Ends" is sometimes held up as the comic that ended the Silver Age for both the JLA and J'onn J'onnz and ushered in the Bronze.

And Lightysnake's right—he didn't bring up the example again, he responded to somebody else. That's hardly violating a promise or anything like that.

Regarding questions about Mongul II as compared to Mongul I, I thought I'd post a list of Mongul I's crimes so that we can decide who is worse. Looking over their wiki entries I think we're dealing with two rather different evils: Mongul I is grandiose and a would-be world conqueror, while Mongul II is a petulant, spiteful brat. Anyway, here's Mongul I.

Who is Mongul I? What has he done?

First appearing in the Bronze Age Mongul was the dictator of his home planet, until his people forced him to leave. Arriving on Earth, he kidnaps Steve Lombard, Jimmy Olsen, and Lois Lane, in order to force Superman into giving him the keys to Warworld. He then tries to kill Superman and Supergirl. Beaten, he travels to Throneworld, home of Prince Gavyn (one of the many, many Starmen), murders Gavyn's sister, and tries to force Gavyn's girlfriend into marrying him so that he can become king. Driven off by Gavyn and Superman, Mongul murders one of the Controllers, takes command of a Sun-Eater, and brings it to Earth's solar system, planning to wipe out the planet. Finally, in "For The Man Who Has Everything" he uses the Black Mercy to trap Superman in a fantasy world, from which he can only escape by sacrificing his dearest desire.

That's all in the Bronze Age. Following the 1986 reboot, Mongul was reimagined as the ruler of Warworld, a travelling spacestation that used gladiator games to keep the population under control. He captured Superman and made him fight in the games, only for Superman to lead a revolt. Deposed, Mongul joined forces with the Cyborg-Superman to wipe out Coast City and try to transform Earth into another Warworld. Trapped in a Lunar prison, he breaks out and kills everyone in the prison and on the escape ship. He takes over another world, and rules it so brutally that it drives the entire population to suicide-by-virus. He was later killed by Neron.

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

Oddly enough, I would suggest Bronze Age Mongul is actually more heinous then Modern Age Mongul. He's got a longer, more impressive rapsheet, and at the time, there would have been fewer criminals committing those sorts of crimes. And of course, his actions in "For The Man Who Has Everything" are beyond the pale. For those who are wondering, the story is pretty much identical to the episode of Justice League Unlimited that's based upon it. Modern Age Mongul doesn't seem quite as bad, though he could qualify; I just think his son is worse.

Any redeeming qualities?

Neither version has any. Both are tyrannical despots solely motivated by power.

Freudian Excuse?

None, though you could argue that Modern Age Mongul was forced into the Coast City plan by Cyborg-Superman (that said, he's obviously getting a kick out of it).

In the end, I'd qualify Bronze Age Mongul I for sure, though I remain undecided about Modern Age Mongul I. Either way, I think he's very different from Mongul II and shouldn't be a factor in discussing him.

edited 22nd Jan '13 5:10:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Speaking of DC, on the DCAU page, in the entry for Derek Powers/Blight, I think we should add "ruining Mr. Freeze's chance at a normal life" to his list of deeds.

@ 7356 That really isn't constructive. Lightysnake was responding to somebody else not bringing it up again.

Technically, he didn't; You Have Outlived Your Usefulness moment or not, the operation that was meant to cure Mr.Freeze's condition failed completely by its own.

edited 22nd Jan '13 5:44:32 PM by Crowley

Good point. So the only thing he does to Freeze is cause his death, and he's done that to lots of people.

I added Mongul II; what prompted me to do so was a Blackest Night tie-in where Indigo tries to amplify his compassion to get him to stop fighting... and it fails completely because he never had any to begin with. He also ran Korugar completely into the ground; for all Sinestro's many, many faults, at least he made the proverbial trains run on time.

Blanx is a definite qualifier. He is devoid of positive characteristics and is a pretty good example of a character being frigidly sociopathic. Genocide for the sake of selling the planet and I didn't get the impression that money was really that much of a big deal to him.

Mongul is a pretty horrible person. The Bronze Age version at the very least should qualify. He takes sadistic pleasure in causing pain both (emotional and physical) and has a fairly long list of crimes. No redeeming qualities either.

edited 22nd Jan '13 6:15:42 PM by SophiaLonesoul

A good quote about Blanx from a blog:

"You know, the Phantom Zone criminals got up to some really abhorrent doings, but none of them successfully killed 99% of all Kryptonians. I don’t even think any tried. That scale of genocide is so horrific and ultimately pointless, few super-villains are so hollow as to go that route. Commander Blanx was such a creature, annihilating his own race for personal gain, and standing as the butcher of Martian life for twenty years."

Also:

"Commander Blanx cared about absolutely nothing but himself. He cast aside a millennium of peace on Mars to wage a civil/racial war. In man-to-man combat with J’onn J’onzz, he brought in another man to sucker punch his foe. Blanx insinuated himself deeply into the Martian hierarchy solely to satisfy his personal ambition. Finally, he destroyed all of Mars, not because of emotional problems or divine direction, but simply to satisfy his own greed and disdain for the “weakness” of his people."

"Blanx has no first name, only a title. His skin is absent of color, cold and pale as a corpse, and almost entirely concealed in regal garb. Their sickly orange and green color scheme highlights his otherness from humanity, and Blanx was never without a lethal weapon of some kind. Blanx has no significant others to speak of, only nameless minions serving as his hostile army. When presented with a power source, he uses it to kill as many people and destroy as much property as possible. Even conquering his own world isn’t enough to satisfy Blanx, so he sells out all other Martian life to the highest bidder. Blanx is a commander, seeking to subjugate and dispose of lackeys at will. Blanx was the antichrist of Mars, and a criminal everyplace else."

I don't know why, but I really like that last line.

edited 22nd Jan '13 6:45:07 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I think we have a good handle on who we're keeping a cutting. I think we ought snip Hurt, but leave him on a list to bring up later, same for Genocide. Someone could make a good argument there.

Does anyone know if Zod and Ursa actually love one another?

And I vote we include both Mongul Sr. and Jr.

The version of Zod listed and the version of Ursa listed aren't actually connected. Ursa's from the New Krypton arc. The Zod listed is from another reality. I believe the version of Ursa listed does love her Zod, but I don't know for sure. I know little about the alternate universe Zod.

Which version of Mongul Sr did you have in mind? Bronze Age, Modern Age, or both?

edited 22nd Jan '13 6:46:41 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I could see both. The utter horror of what he did to Coast City?

Yeah, but he was pretty clearly subservient to Henshaw there, and Henshaw is most definitely not this trope.

While true, He was enjoying it far too much to discredit him in my eyes.

If I have to, keep bronze age Mongul and cut modern. Keep Mongul Jr.

The Bronze Age version I find stands out more, given the nature of the universe he is in. Here's a write-up.

• The Bronze Age incarnation of Galactic Conqueror Mongul was a deeply nasty piece of work, particularly given the time period. In his first appearance, he kidnapped Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, and Steve Lombard in order to blackmail Superman into giving him the keys to Warworld, then tries to kill both Superman and Supergirl with the weapon. He later travelled to Prince Gavyn (one of the Starmen)'s homeworld, murdered Gavyn's sister, and tried to force Gavyn's girlfriend into marrying him so that he might take over the planet. Beaten by Gavyn and Superman, he seized control of a Sun-Eater and unleashed it on Earth's solar system, seeking to wipe out all human life. It was in his last appearance, however, in the iconic For The Man Who Has Everything storyline that Mongul showed just how low he could sink. Ambushing Superman on his birthday, Mongul trapped him in a fantasy world, from which Superman could only escape by sacrificing his heart's desire; in Mongul's own words "It must have been like tearing off your own arm." While Superman is occupied with this, Mongul tries to beat Wonder Woman to death, while gloating about how women are too weak to stop him. Eventually trapped by the same weapon he had used on Superman, Mongul dreams of a galaxy awash in bloodshed, with himself seated on a throne, orchestrating it all.

edited 2nd Feb '13 10:30:29 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I came across this on the Anime page :

"Hayao Miyazaki isn't fond of villains and when it comes to antagonists, his movies are chokful of either (initially) villainous characters who turn out to have a good side to them as well, or "good" characters who turn out to have a few nasty tricks upon their sleeve. There is one subversion in the Ghibli canon, however; Castle in the Sky, which features Colonel Muska, a government secret agent on a mission to retrieve Laputa. Once he does, at the expense of the heroes, he reveals he is the descendant of the Laputean monarchy, forces his way to the middle of the floating island and starts utilizing it's sheer force to turn on everyone. While he sheds his Affably Evil front, he gleefully kills most of his allies by throwing them off the island to their deaths, thus crossing the Moral Event Horizon. Basically, Miyazaki's only true villain suitably plays this trope straight.

On the subject of pre-Ghibli works, Future Boy Conan's Lepka is essentially Muska's spritual predecessor and equally as evil."

I'm not really contesting Muska's status but the entry could use to be rewritten. He doesn't have any redeeming qualities, kills his allies for no particular reason, wants world domination through treat/use of a super weapon. At the very least the extraneous material at the beginning should be removed.

The tacked on bullet point gives no context. I have not seen Future Boy Conan so I cannot give any commentary or provide context.

That's an awful entry. I can't even tell what's supposed to be going on in it.

Looks like a good write up for Mongul. I have no complaints.