During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I agree at this point, simply being a nasty children killer isn't going to cut it. They are going to need to do something that is unheard of and truly unique or have a very, VERY high rape/kill count (perhaps in the hundreds) to warrant discussion.
edited 9th Dec '16 10:01:43 AM by username2527
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Each of the 15 has a special factor:
- Vasher has pure quantity (while Crossford attempted to),
- Bradstone has fewer kills, but has the Facial Horror he inflicts.
- Curtis also has Cruel and Unusual Death.
- Allen and Wyland are pedophiles.
- Roycewood has child killing, burning them to death.
- Holcombe has quantity and the Cruel and Unusual Death.
- Lucy and Zorgen lead human trafficking rings.
- Boyd (who also has quantity), Cally, and Preston have bigotry.
- Arnold and especially Foyet have numerous factors.
edited 9th Dec '16 10:11:26 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Then maybe it's just time to stop fishing for examples from the show.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Nobody's fishing. Honestly, I think we're PROBABLY done. There MAY be a few more examples, but we've gotten most of the clear ones; nobody else from Season 12 is close IMO.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yeah, Criminal Minds' heinous standard is why I decided not to pursue anyone after proposing the Replicator (Yeah I proposed Mason, but he's a special case: massive bodycount and oddly ignored). After I'm able to get Mason written up, I think the series has currently been exhausted of candidates for now.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
FW, I think it was you who I discussed the other 2 with? One guy had Alzheimer's, the other may not be bad enough (but damned if killing people by their own fears isn't a special niche; I may SERIOUSLY consider watching that ep).
No, I think there's been a bad case of fishing. Bringing up unwatched episodes? Constantly linking back to the wiki? Saying "maybe he counts! maybe I should watch this episode! what about this character?" doesn't speak of anything else to me.
Please. The constant discussion on these crime shows (Criminal Minds especially, honestly) wears down after a while and it feels like we're beating a dead topic that doesn't need to beat anymore.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
At this point, it's safe to say we probably won't find anyone else from Criminal Minds until Season 13. Maybe. There are a lot of killers who stand out (Bates, Howard, Stiles, that one guy played by Tim Curry) but we've reached a point where a candidate's body count has to be in the double or triple-digits and/or the candidate must be a rapist in order for them to be a CM.
Which, again, is very unsettling for this show.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Agreed. We all should take a break from SVU and Criminal Minds for a while.
edited 9th Dec '16 11:14:03 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
If another character who actually warrants being discussed crops up in the new season, fine. But there's no use draining this show for any more candidates when it's already been pretty much bled dry.
The Unknown Unknown
Wow, that is messed-up heinous standard...
Yeah, even from the outside looking in, it's best to give it a rest. 15 C Ms is downright ridiculous.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Though when you think about it, that averages about 1+ per season, which, in the genre, isn't TOO bad, considering there are only a few recurring unsubs.
And yeah, I think, unless someone effortposts Greg Yates, we're done with SVU as well.
On another topic, who was gonna discuss American Horror Story: Roanoke?
edited 9th Dec '16 12:04:29 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Nobody. Silverblade and I talked about it briefly and there's only one or two possible candidates. The biggest problem is that half of the season is a Show Within a Show, so it's hard to know if the first half of the season really happened the way it happened or not. I watched the whole season, but the villains' backstory/motivation is a bit hard to follow; I'd have to rewatch the season just to freshen my memory. Which I'm in no hurry to do.
That being said, if anyone else wants to talk about the show, be my guest. No one really stuck out to me though compared to the Hotel and Freak Show seasons.
And it's possible that someone from Roanoke does count. But I know I missed some things, and I'd have to go back and rewatch the season. Which is not happening soon, considering the other things on my To-Do list....
edited 9th Dec '16 12:21:27 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Well, a Show Within a Show can still count if it's properly elaborated upon. One could even consider that a more likely scenario for a Complete Monster, as they don't necessarily have the same standard for heinous.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Well it seems that Bate couldn't make the cut, I had a feeling he might not, but I'm still glad to get that out of the way and know.
Thanks for having my back again ACW! really appreciate it! 
Have we ever voted in someone from a Show Within a Show?
jjj
I vaguely think we might have, but it's not all that likely.
Hello, I would like to submit two possible entries.
First one is Gloria Hodge from Desperate Housewives. I don't know if it has been already submitted but I think she's definitely worth the definition of Complete Monster.
Heinousness: Gloria is a cunning, sociopathic Knight Templar who would do anything to keep control over her son Orson. When she found out that her husband was having an affair, she murdered him and made it look like a suicide in order to guilt trip Orson, who was just seventeen at the time. She teamed up with Alma to keep Orson in an unhappy marriage and, when it seemed that Alma had ran away and Orson could be happy with his lover Monique, Gloria murdered the latter and forced Orson to help her dispose of the body. After Orson marries Bree, Gloria lures him in a trap and drugs him so that Alma can rape him in order to become pregnant. She then plans to kill Bree, an idea that shocks even Alma, who refuses to help her further. Gloria then locks her in the attic, not caring that she could be pregnant, showing how big a hypocrite she is, since for her family has worth only when it's useful to her. When Andrew tries to stop her from murdering Bree, she callously bludgeons him with her cane.
Freudian Excuse: She has none. Her husband cheating on her cannot justify any of her actions.
Evil Played Seriously: Every time. Gloria has a rather wicked sense of humor, but none of her deeds is Played for Laughs. And all of this happens in Desperate Housewives, which is famous for its Grey-and-Gray Morality.
Chance Of Redemption: She has none. Her fanaticism doesn't help at all.
The second one is Douche from Sausage Party
Heinousness: Douche starts the movie by simply living up to his name, being rude and annoying with the other items. After he's thrown away following the fall from the shopping cart, however, he brutally drinks the juice from a leaking juice box, which is shown as disturbingly similar to a rape scene and causes the death of the box. Douche proceeds to terrorize the other items, murdering them when they fail to bring him Brenda and her friends or simply to gain more strength. During the final showdown, he sodomizes Darren and gains control of his movements, starting a rampage that kills several foods. In his confrontation with Frank, he bites a chunk out of the latter's side, all this while proclaiming himself a god. So, basically, he commits cannibalism, vampirism, rape and murder.
Freudian Excuse: Being thrown out because of his leakage might elicit some sympathy, but it goes away the exact moment he comes across that juice box.
Evil Played Seriously: Again, the juice box scene, one of the very few moments of the film that is played seriously. Also, his behavior towards Darren and Frank is clearly menacing and disturbed.
Chance Of Redemption: He might have not crossed the Moral Event Horizon before - again - finding the juice box. It all goes downhill from there.
edited 9th Dec '16 1:35:13 PM by Xythos
I hope that TV Tropes blows up as the shitbomb it is. Sodomize yourselves with cattle prods.
I think we discussed and cut Hodge before. And no, Douche doesn't qualify. In any way or form. The setting, the tone, the movie, the character - none of them are conducive to fit the criteria of CM. Once again, that was discussed.
Geez, didn't expect Desperate Housewives to have a tone like that.
Wild Child
Douche was already discussed (if you could even call it that) and down-voted.
Why so serious?
I've seen the Iron-Masked Marauder was cut from Monster.Pokemon, why was he? I'm curious since I recall him being added after we adopted our current strict standards, what changed?
Also, awhile ago I proposed Creator.Nintendo had enough examples (I counted nearly 20) to warrant its own Monster page, which was shot down arguing we don't give out such pages by creator unless part of a shared universe (Stephen King, DC and Marvel Comics). However, I've since realized that Disney and Cartoon Network have their own Monster pages, despite their, to my understanding, being in the same boat. Why do they deserve to get pages but not Nintendo?
I have no idea why the Cartoon Network page exists, but Disney villains are often marketed as a group even if they don't technically share a continuity.
The Unknown Unknown
CN does the same thing every now and then.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
RE: Iron Masked Marauder: I recall that he was removed because later villains surpassed him in both scale and heinousness. I think the discussion took place about a month ago, so it shouldn't be that hard to find.
edited 9th Dec '16 3:39:31 PM by chasemaddigan
I had forgotten Criminal Minds was 1 show. 15 monsters on the page for it? Jesus.