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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#296351: Jan 8th 2022 at 7:00:25 PM

Yes to Crazy Tim Robbins, Bathory, and Cruella.

TIL there are not one but two officially-licensed series that tell alternate pitch-dark versions of Disney movies; I've heard of Twisted Tales, but not Chillers.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
rosewood47 from A Padded Cell Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#296353: Jan 8th 2022 at 8:03:14 PM

Never thought there'd be a Disney version of Elizabeth Bathory but [tup] to her. Cruella too.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#296355: Jan 8th 2022 at 8:55:25 PM

[tup] Gary, Bathory and Cruella

[tdown] Torri. If he's legitimately that upset about his ma betraying him that sounds like genuine care.

Speaking of, the Priest is officially too close to call.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ASghhrv6ub Best Smile from Second star to the right. Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Best Smile
#296357: Jan 8th 2022 at 9:47:31 PM

[tup]Voleth, Charles, Vulture, Chucky, Joker, Punchline, Winston, Strange, Cowley, Elizabeth Bathory, Rasputin, Cruella, Halliwell, Lao Li, Manuel, Terrorists, Shepherd, Tang, Hans, Howard, Smokey, Director, Papa, Silva, Savage, Derek, William, David, Arroyo, Tavis.

Abstain on Andrew.

[tdown]Teen Idol, Ton, Priest, Smith, Kliff, Jace, Ambrose, Peter.

I am the one, I am the one, the godlike terror train, superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#296358: Jan 8th 2022 at 10:07:42 PM

Alright I've got a big one now, I've searched their name in the discussions and only their TV counterpart was mentioned (and they redeemed themselves anyway.) I'll apologise in advance for the length because of it spanning multiple books and I need to give context to certain events. This one took a while because I had to re-read all of the books for this so let's begin anyway...

What is the work?

How To Train Your Dragon is a book series written by Cressida Cowell. It follows a young Viking called Hiccup in various adventures with his allies and pet dragon called Toothless. There's 12 books overall and they mostly are separate arcs with minor links to each other... apart from the last 5 which all closely link with each other. They also suffer from the Harry Potter syndrome, starting off fairly lighthearted with some dark moments before a certain catalyst makes the series fairly dark with some lighthearted moments.

The books were adapted to films and a TV series but they were more of a loose adaptation in comparison with different characters motivations and storylines etc. For the character I want discuss is the overarching villain and Hiccup's arch enemy and distant relative (family tree shenanigans,) Alvin The Treacherous (also known as Alvin the Poor-but-Honest-Farmer.)

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

     Prior to the Story 

Alvin was the heir of the outcast tribe and was determined to become the new king of the wilderwest. After his mother, Excellinor , was sent to a prison. Alvin went on a search for the "10 lost things", artefacts that would give him the right to become king of all of the Vikings.

A few years later, Alvin falsely befriended a prisoner on Lava Lout island called Humongous who was trapped there trying to steal the fire-stone for his lover. To prove he was still alive for his lover, Humongous asked Alvin to take a bracelet back to his lover, Alvin accepted but kept it for himself since it was one of the lost things. This proved to become Alvin's greatest mistake as it inadvertently led to the birth of Hiccup. (Humongous' lover was Hiccup's mother before she met Hiccup's father who did manage to steal the fire stone from the Lava Louts.)

Four years later, Alvin heard a woman from the Murderous tribe called Termagant had found the coffin of Grimbeard The Ghastly, the last true king of the wilderwest. Inside the coffin was meant to be the dragon jewel, another lost thing and a jewel which is capable of wiping out all dragons if used correctly. Alvin womanised Termagant and even had got her pregnant to manipulate her to find the coffin. When he found the coffin, it was empty except for a lobster claw necklace and then slammed onto Alvin's arm, cutting it off. When Termagant healed his arm and replaced it, Alvin gave her the necklace as a gift before leaving her that broken mentally that she put their kid in a basket to sea, which Alvin never cared about. Years later, Alvin tried to convince the Meathead tribe to help him with finding Grimbeard's treasure since there was a map in the coffin before he got thrown into the coffin and dumped into the sea by the Meatheads.

    Second Book 

Discovered by the Hooligan tribe, they freed Alvin from the coffin and agreed to help him with discovering Grimbeard's treasure. When they discover it on Isle of the Skullion's Alvin lets the Hooligan tribe go explore it while not heading onto the island himself. (Skullion's are rabid dragons that are flightless, blind and deaf but have exception smell.) When the Hooligan's escape with the treasure and return to the boat, Alvin reveals himself as the leader of the Outcasts and has his tribe ambush the Hooligans and reveals he's going to enslave them while letting his tribe go to eat their chief and his heir.

After a scuffle which ends up with the boat in fire and sinking and Alvin, Hiccup, Toothless and Fishlegs trapped underneath, they discover a hidden cavern which has a door revealing Grimbeard's true treasure. A fight ensues between Hiccup and Alvin which ends with Alvin getting eaten alive by Grimbeard's final trap, a octopus-like dragon called a Monstrous Strangulator. Although it's revealed in his next appearance that Alvin's alive, the stomach juices made all of his hair fall out and a developing grudge for Hiccup.

    Third Book 

Alvin escaped from the treasure caverns and devises a plan with a group of invading romans to incite a war between the Hooligans and Bog-Burglars by kidnapping their heirs and stealing all of the dragons from the inner isles to have a dragon army to help him get the treasure for himself. When the roman's capture Toothless, Alvin has him personally thrown into a cramped cell out of pettiness. When Alvin reveals himself to Hiccup, he plans to kill him before the leader of the roman party, The Fat Consul decides to throw Hiccup and his allies into a gladiatorial arena to see his skills, much to Alvin's disarray. Due to the heavy rain flooding the arena, instead of having Hiccup fight romans, Alvin had the arena be full of sharkworms (hybrid of dragon's and sharks,) to kill the hero's. When the hero's escape, Alvin gives pursuit before it ends with him falling into the arena full of the sharkworms.

Alvin also had left a trap within Hiccup's dragon translating book that he wanted to use to command the dragons, a poisonous dragon that has a fatal sting to anyone it affects. This action was the catalyst for the fourth book as Hiccup was trying to find a cure for the dragon's sting.

    Fifth Book 

Escaping the sharkworms, although losing an eye and a leg in the process, Alvin heard that ,because of the fire stone being stolen from Lava Lout island, the volcano on the island is getting repeatedly volatile. Alvin returned there as a prison guard and spoke to Humongous and told him his lover had died and manipulates him to head to the Hooligan tribe, kill Hiccup and grab the fire stone for him. Because of the volcano getting more volatile, it's causing dragons called Exterminators (think of a dragon with the omnicidal tendencies of a Dalek.)to be released. Alvin intends on using the fire stone to control the exterminators and use them as an army to conquer the lands. In the climax of the film, Alvin attempts to murder the hero's and his old "friend" by unleashing the Exterminators. His plan fails when the fire stone gets thrown into the volcano and frees the fire dragon within, letting it eat all of the Exterminators and Alvin before diving into the volcano. Alvin escaped via using the fire dragon's laughing bubbles to float up and end up on Berserk island.

    Eighth Book 

Alvin doesn't really do much in this book as he's left as acting as the chef for the Berserks. When Hiccup gets captured by the Berserks, Alvin prepares to strangle Hiccup before Hiccup suggests they can escape together with his allies. Alvin proceeds to go with it, before throwing Hiccup in a tree cell with an unknown prisoner, later revealed to be Alvin's own mother. When Hiccup escapes the cell and leaves the prisoner behind, he returns back to his cell to try and release his friends. Alvin decides pick Hiccup and his friends as sacrifices for the beast in the pit of the Berserk's forest. After Hiccup escapes from the pit with the beast, a dragon called Furious who then proclaims that he's going wipe out all human life (I'll discuss him more in the heinous standard,) he sets the forest on fire, forcing everyone to flee. Alvin has a duel with Hiccup on a burning bridge and almost kills him before his mother appears, telling him to save Hiccup because he has one of the lost things, Hiccup's sword. It ends with Alvin and his mother falling into the inferno. Unfortunately they fell into the only lake on Berserk.

    Ninth Book 

In this book, Alvin's mother is more of the human antagonist out of the two but at the end, Hiccup almost gets proclaimed king of the Vikings before it's revealed he had a slave branding on his head. Due to that, Alvin was crowned leader of the Vikings and he then declared that unlike Hiccup, who wanted to introduce peace between humans and dragons, Alvin wanted to initiate war with the dragons and slaughter all of them. He then declares Hiccup and his father Stoick to become slaves. When Hiccup escapes with the map towards the dragon jewel, Alvin declares Hiccup an enemy of the state and orders him to be killed on sight.

    Tenth Book 

Due to the increase in dragons wiping taking over human settlements, Alvin had his men lay traps out that wouldn't just instantly kill them but would leave them to die slowly. Alvin had also tasked Hiccup's mother to hunt down the traitor and claim the map for himself. Taking helm at Prison Darkheart, Alvin had slaves of all ages go out to the marshlands to find the dragon jewel for him, uncaring if they can't return to the prison when the tide rises. His motivator is that he'll give the slave who finds the jewel their freedom but that's revealed to nothing but a lie.

When Alvin realises that Hiccup was possibly in the prison, knowing Hiccup's good hearted nature, he threatened to murder the nearest person near him. This person was one of his own loyal soldiers. When Hiccup escapes in the ensuing scuffle, Alvin decides to do a mass execution on some of the slaves, just to vent some anger out. He's only interrupted when Hiccup's mother returns with Hiccup and the jewel. This causes a rift between the vikings as she explains that Hiccup's end is peace with the jewel while Alvin's is genocide. The story ends with Alvin snagging the jewel off Hiccup when he tries to escape, leaving him with the jewel, but human enemies as well as the dragon foe.

    Eleventh Book 

Alvin has started to enslave dragons as well as humans to become weapons of war to help him find the last lost thing and also wiping out the human rebels who strived for peace among everyone. When Hiccup ends up in his cavern lair, Alvin tortures him to reveal the location of the human rebels. He does this by dipping Hiccup in frigid water while letting piranha like dragons eat at him. Hiccup later escapes on a ship with all of the lost things before Alvin sends a raiding party after Hiccup and seemingly kills him while claiming the lost things and is now viable to be crowned the true king of the wilderwest.

    Twelfth Book 

Alvin is about to be crowned king and be revealed the secret of the dragon jewel's weapon before Hiccup appears and says that he found the lost things not Alvin. The dragon guardians of Tomorrow vouched for Hiccup to be king. Hiccup then takes the jewel to Furious to try and end the war and initiate peace. Unfortunately the jewel was revealed to be a fake. The real one was in the lobster necklace that Fishleg's had, the same one Alvin left to Termagant all those years back.

When Hiccup attempts to use the real jewel as a peace offering, Alvin and his mother use a stealth dragon and steals the jewel, triggering Furious to attack the humans out of betrayal. Alvin then tries to use the jewel's power, a plague trapped inside that will wipe out all dragons and almost succeeds... until Fishleg's steals it off him. When Fishlegs called him out for the abandonment of someone who loved him, Alvin shows no regret and leaves Fishlegs to find the jewel. However due to Alvin interfering with the truce negotiation, the guardians of tomorrow drag him to the atmosphere and obliterate him, killing him for good.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

For the second book, Alvin could be seen as affable evil and he had a few gags of humour with him but that all evaporates with his later appearances and his manipulations. When asked about a good deed in his life by his own mother, he responds with that he didn't whip the slaves as much once. He doesn't even have any true love for his mother as he intended on having her executed once he'd become king.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Now in the books there's 3 other notable characters of nastiness:

Grimbeard the Ghastly - Left his runt son to the wilds, enacted slavery on dragons and humans to build his kingdom on tomorrow and triggered the uneasiness between dragon's and humans. He isn't viable though because he has a genuine breakdown when he accidentally kills his runt son who tried to offer peace with him after being manipulated.

Furious - Furious only has one goal, wipe out every single human being and he's shown to be ferocious at it but he has a hell of a tragic backstory (watched his foster brother get murdered and chained to a pit for over 100 years by humans.) so his hatred isn't unjustified. He also cares for his kind and did in the end accept peace before dying.

Excellinor (Alvin's mother) - Although only appearing from the 8th book onwards, she's a key instrument to the human antagonist's actions and shares equal footing with Alvin in terms of vileness, and she doesn't seem to have true love for her son either, only seeing him as a tool to become king. I might propose her to be honest.

If you want to compare the films to the books - Grimmel and Drago both take traits from Alvin with enslaving and attempted genocide although I don't recall any child slavery from them two like Alvin has

Final Verdict?

I'm saying a fat [tup]

Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 9th 2022 at 11:50:20 AM

Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#296359: Jan 8th 2022 at 10:13:56 PM

Yes to Alvin, but...just a note? The EP is way too long. We don't need a play by play of everything they do.

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#296360: Jan 8th 2022 at 10:16:46 PM

[up] Yh it was a concern of mine in hindsight, I haven't tackled a proposal for a villain sprouting this length

Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
SumDumNerd Current mood: sick of your shit from the Ever After Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
Current mood: sick of your shit
GenericGuy2000 I’m here, I guess. from a generic place. Since: Aug, 2021 Relationship Status: Cast away
I’m here, I guess.
TheJokster22 Justice for Skywarp from Down Unda Since: Mar, 2017 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Justice for Skywarp
#296363: Jan 8th 2022 at 11:27:50 PM

[tup] to Alvin and The Chipmunks

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
Ordeaux26 Professor Gigachad from Canada Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Professor Gigachad
#296365: Jan 8th 2022 at 11:35:34 PM

[tup] Alvin, I had always wondered if someone from the OG novels could count.

CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#296366: Jan 8th 2022 at 11:44:12 PM

[up] I'm surprised that the books weren't discussed since the films and series were. I may have an proposal for his mother soon which thankfully won't be as lengthy

Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
GenericGuy2000 I’m here, I guess. from a generic place. Since: Aug, 2021 Relationship Status: Cast away
I’m here, I guess.
#296367: Jan 8th 2022 at 11:53:27 PM

So... a few days ago I brought a problem with Mark Jefferson's CM entry (see here).

I definitely don't think it would strip him of his monster status but I think this part should be rewritten to be more plot accurate.

[down] You mean just cut out the part that says "it is discovered one such victim was Rachel Amber"? ~Beast was the one who wrote the entry so they should probably have a say in this.

Edited by GenericGuy2000 on Jan 9th 2022 at 4:24:29 PM

I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#296368: Jan 9th 2022 at 12:15:46 AM

[up] Write it out?

I'm not a comic reader to be honest so I can't say anything about this but on Marvel Comic's page it lists the Gorgon but reading his character page there's this:

Heel–Face Turn: In Jonathan Hickman's X-Men he is among the hundreds of mutant villains who travel to Krakoa to accept the second chance and new mutant homeland offered by the X-Men. Wolverine even approaches him with a six-pack of beer to bury the hatchet, and while it's not shown whether or not he accepts the offer, later stories would indicate that he did.

Noble Demon: He's a nihilistic terrorist, but he does have a minimal amount of honor, at least when it comes to a revered figure like Muramasa. When a rogue Hand lieutenant helped the Orphans of X lay siege to Muramasa's forge, Gorgon executed the dissident and then apologized to Muramasa and asked how he could atone for what happened.

Can anyone elaborate?

[down] Alright thanks for clarifying.

Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 9th 2022 at 8:22:49 PM

Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#296369: Jan 9th 2022 at 12:20:26 AM

Depending on the writer, comics, etc.

MinisterOfSinister From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye! from In the Hall of the Mountain King Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
#296371: Jan 9th 2022 at 1:42:30 AM

[tup] Alvin the Treacherous. Man I remember reading those books as a kid. They rocked, and it always disappointed me that the movies were so radically different.

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#296372: Jan 9th 2022 at 1:50:12 AM

For Alvin, please give a summary of his worst actions. I'm not voting yes until that happens.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#296373: Jan 9th 2022 at 2:11:08 AM

[up] Mass slavery of humans (children included) and dragons and attempted genocide via viral plague on the dragons. Dragons are much more sapient than they're shown to be in the films with Hiccup having full conversations with them, because he can understand their language.

Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 9th 2022 at 10:11:32 AM

Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#296374: Jan 9th 2022 at 2:12:38 AM

Yeah sure I can yeah [tup]alvin. From memory

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#296375: Jan 9th 2022 at 2:17:31 AM

Okay, that was a little SHORTER than I meant [lol] but I'll give him a yes.

Why does he hate dragons so much?

Edited by ACW on Jan 9th 2022 at 5:19:24 AM

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

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