Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Ares didn't purposely set it up so Diana would think Ludendorff was him and she'd kill him? If so, then yeah, go ahead and cut.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 29th 2021 at 4:28:52 AM

Hey there! Now I have been checking out this thread for a long time but more as an observer than someone interested in E Ping. That said there is a character from a work under fan games that was discussed over a year ago that needs to be addressed because of new info from a sequel this year and if I don't bring it up no one will.

It's Nithriel from Hedon, now going over the original EP for her Elfen (The one who originally posted her) got everything right. But a couple months ago there was a sequel titled Hedon 2 Bloodrite that in a side quest (ugh) reveals that the reason Nithriel was commanding the demons despite her supposed hatred of them? Was because in Bloodrite the side quest reveals that she was previously brainwashed by an eldritch entity called the Blue Baron (who doesn't count because it's a GDV) into doing its bidding.

I had to play through an over 18 hour game for this info and it seems it was done to address complaints about Nithriel's weird backstory. Any thoughts? I just wanted to bring it up because this had been overlooked for longer than it should've been.

Hedon is a total conversation of Doom under the fan games page btw.

So the sequel gave her redeeming qualities.

If all of that is true then she needs to be cut ASAP.

to Odin Quincannon, Lord Sulla, Marcello Sepi/the Bomb Man, Professor Giacomo Adler, Saionji Shozo, Manaka Sajyou, Warden Shibayama, George Clements, and Peter Toynbee.

to Ray Codfree. Cut Nithriel.

Today, I've got a case that might need to be relitigated based on new information that was brought up. Massive thanks to 43110 for discussing it with me. It's also one of my past failed effort posts, so I'll link the original here if anyone's curious. I'll do a quick recap for anyone who needs it, but I'll also try countering past arguments that disqualified it below.

What's the Work?

Black & White and its sequel are a duology of games where you get to play as a god, casting miracles and managing the cities of your followers so that you may lead them to prosperity. We already have one keeper with the Aztec leader, whom is dealt with in the main plot of the second game. However, as the Aztecs are defeated, one makes a prayer for a god to appear and get revenge on the Greeks. Only a few seconds later, a meteor shows up in the sky...

Who is the Aztec God and What Has He Done?

Upon its birth, the Aztec God is disgusted that Earth "reeks" of life and decides to wipe it all out so that the ensuing death can strengthen him and allow him to rule the world. Raising an undead Aztec army, the god commands it to eradicate Japanese towns, while also capturing the Greek men to eliminate them as a threat. The player god will have to send their creature to rescue the men, which the Aztec god tries to stop by sending boulders to crush the escapees. Throughout the game, the Aztec god repeatedly sends his skeleton army to wipe out the Greeks and even personally participating in some battles, raining down fireballs onto the city. Should the player retake the island, the Aztec god will lose all influence over the Japanese homeland, so it turns its attention to another tribe, the Norse.

There, the Aztec god uses a wolf creature to cull villages throughout the island so that they can be sacrificed, in which they will increase his own power and be used to expand his own undead army. Further, the Aztec God occasionally murders his people for petty reasons, such as raining boulders to demolish a village to vent his anger over losing a battle and casting spells to turn villages into a skeleton army. Once the player takes this island, the Aztec god scoffs at the setback and proclaims that his true target was the Greek homeland, intending to exterminate them like the Aztecs nearly did in the main campaign.

More powerful than ever from the past deaths that occurred on the island, the Aztec God begins preparing natural disasters like hurricanes and earthquakes to destroy the players' cities and any defecting towns. After the player successfully retake the homeland, the Aztec god will have lost practically all of its influence and be defeated for good. Just as the Greeks celebrate, a single skeleton warrior emerges from the ground and a menacing laugh is heard...

...only for the skeleton to be killed in a barrage of flaming arrows.

Does He Have Any Mitigating Qualities or Freudian Excuse?

Lack of moral agency isn't an issue. All gods in the setting are born from a prayer, but have a choice to be good or evil. The player in both entries is shown to have a good and bad conscience that they can listen to and determine their alignment. There is no indication that the Aztec god is any different, so he has agency and chooses evil out of his desire for power. As for the Aztecs, the god doesn't really seem concerned about them or his undead army, as he's more interested in pursuing its own omnicidal goals. No Freudian Excuse either.

Does He Meet the Heinousness Standard?

For the sake of not making this post too long, I'll just say heinousness is no concern. No other antagonist attempts an omnicide.

Is He a Generic Doomsday Villain?

He was rejected twice for being a Generic Doomsday Villain, as he seemed like a flavorless threat who seems to hate life for no reason. However, upon revisiting the game, I believe that the Aztec God has enough presence and dialogue to avert this trope.

Firstly, a Complete Monster needs a motive, in which the Aztec God's is to accumulate more power and become the most powerful deity in the world. This motivation is made clear with his line "Why do you still resist? Give in! Perhaps I will let you rule with me? Ha Ha!" Here, it's made explicit that the Aztec God is power-hungry and wants to rule Earth, having zero intention of sharing it with another god. An unoriginal motive for sure, but it is a motive. This is even reflected with his whole plan to exterminate all life, as numerous lines make clear that all the death he's causing is strengthening him:

• "Feed me their flesh; so that I may be stronger and split their bones onto the pyre of victory."

• "With each sacrifice, I grow in power!"

• "Wolf! Hear me! Go forth, and bring me villagers. Sacrifice them upon my altar. Their death will give me power. Their bones will form my armies. We will leave no eye open to weep for the dead."

Even his plan of gaining power through sacrifice makes sense in-game because the player can commit human sacrifice and it nets them a lot of "faith" currency needed to perform miracles. With his motive reflected in both his dialogue and actions, I'm inclined to say that he satisfies this criteria to averting Generic Doomsday Villain.

As for characterization, the Aztec God gets more than enough dialogue and onscreen action to show off some more personality beyond being an Omnicidal Maniac, provided through his constant in-game commentary and the expansion's cutscenes. In general, it's shown that the Aztec God is an ill-tempered Sore Loser who occasionally dips into being bitterly sarcastic and throws tantrums at any setback. Here are some examples:

• When the player god breaks through the Greek prison, the Aztec God rhetorically and angrily asks his minions "What use is a prison if it cannot be guarded?!" comment. Immediately after, he lets out an audible scream of anger before summoning meteors to destroy his prison in rage. Even the player's evil guide comments "And I thought I had an attitude problem" and the good guide adds "We should be careful, leader. He's livid now!", confirming that this was meant to be an aspect of his character.

• If the player takes a town, the Aztec God on one occasion shouts "How dare you take this town from me! You will pay for this sin!" before he begins launching rocks at the town to spitefully kill its inhabitants for joining the player's side (The player has to use a shield miracle to save the town).

• In another instance of the player taking a town, the Aztec God goes ballistic, telling his followers "Charge up the Wonder NOW!", in which he'll summon an earthquake to destroy the town and all of its inhabitants. Once the earthquake finishes, the Aztec God leaves with "Let that be a lesson to you. You cannot defeat me."

Even his sadism is displayed in his dialogue and not just inferred from his actions, with lines like "It's time to see you suffer again..." (When he's about to launch an attack) and "Ha! Look how the Greeks are being slain by my troops." (When the Aztec God's forces kill the player's armies).

Him being non-present isn't an issue either, as his appearance is represented as a demonic hand on the in-game map and he is shown on-screen to be responsible for committing and/or ordering every crime shown in the expansion.

With these examples, it's clearly shown that the Aztec God has a legitimate goal and personality beyond just being a characterless threat whose evil is only vaguely implied through indirect actions. His presence and crimes are very much seen and felt throughout the campaign, with cutscenes depicting them and the Aztec God spewing lines to show how venomous and short-tempered he is as a god. Definitely a Flat Character, but he does have a concrete motivation and a fiery, petty personality, reflected in both dialogue and action.

Final Verdict?

What do you guys think?

No. The game never specifies and even the player god is unnamed.

Edited by DrUnknown on Oct 29th 2021 at 5:24:19 AM

Aztec God

So is he supposed to be any specific Aztec God ?

to Saionji Shozo, Marcello Sepi, Professor Giacomo Adler, Manaka, Warden Shibayama, George Clements, Peter Toynbee and the Aztec God.

Yes to Aztec God.

What is the Work The Legend of Spyro is the darker and edgier reboot of the Spyro franchise released as a trilogy within the mid 2000s. The games were much more combat based and story driven compared to the Excuse plots of the classic continuity.

The games were one massive story spread out between them. Although the main antagonist of the whole trilogy Malefor counts as a CM (rightfully so,) my main focus is on his main enforcer for the first two games Gaul.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

Gaul is the king of the apes, the main antagonistic faction of the first two games of the trilogy. Serving Malefor to free him from his prison, Gaul had his armies spread across the realms going against any resistance,to help further Malefor's plan.

Before the first game, Malefor foresaw that a purple dragon would stop his plans from being fruition so Gaul went to the dragon temple where the dragon eggs were kept and slaughtered them all with his armies leaving only two alive, Spyro who got took by Ignitus to the river and Cynder which Gaul took himself.

When Gaul brought back Cynder to his lair, he then used the dragon youngling and corrupted her with Malefor's magic to make her become a sociopathic monster (who revealed that she was aware of everything she did and there was nothing she could do about it) and gleefully used her to attack his enemies with his armies, capturing the guardians and draining them of their magic to free Malefor's essence from the convexity.

In the beginning of "The Eternal Night", after Spyro defeated Cynder and reverted her back to her normal form. Gaul sent an attack force to lay siege on the dragon temple, rendering it uninhabitable, purely to make sure Spyro was murdered.

Later in the game when Spyro meets Cynder again on the Skavenger ship, Gaul sent another attack force to assault the ship, and kill anyone in the way to murder Spyro, capturing Cynder in the process.

Gaul is later seen speaking to Cynder and mockingly telling her that Malefor will either corrupt her back again or will murder her.

At the end of the game, Spyro finally encounters Gaul in his lair just before he's able to release Malefor from his prison. Gaul drains Spyro of his strength before making Cynder kill him. Cynder instead makes a move towards Gaul who retaliates via slamming her into a wall. When one of his cronies makes a move towards Spyro, Gaul claims that "Don't touch him, he's mine!" So begins the final fight.

After phase one of the fight, the eternal night's eclipse sends a powered ray onto Spyro, turning him into Dark Spyro which gives Spyro control over dark aether.

After the end of the second phase, Gaul goads Spyro into killing him before mockingly calling him a coward for not reacting. When Gaul makes one final move towards our protagonist, Spyro unleashes a wave of dark aether and annihlates the tyrant (on screen so there's no ambiguity), a karmic death for the monster who had slaughtered countless others.

The game ends with the lair collapsing around Spyro and co as they huddle together before Spyro encases them in a time crystal until the next game begins. In which Malefor wages war for three years before his plans of global omnicide commence.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Nope, Gaul's actions are felt heavily with certain characters and there's not a twinge of humour to his character, being portrayed as a serious threat at all times.

Gaul claims that apes have suffered but his actions to seem to be a case of hatred towards dragons. He's also never shown to care about his troops welfare despite countless of them being killed in battles.

Gaul seemed to be loyal to Malefor but the 3rd game reveals that the apes were never truly loyal to Malefor, only the power and strength that would come with serving him.

Gaul's actions such as the mass infanticide and the corruption of Cynder are both not shown as offscreen villainy but are shown via flashbacks, confirming he was the one to do the deeds.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Child killing, corrupting a child to become a sociopathic monster who's aware of her actions? I'd say that's pretty heinous for the franchise. Other villains in the franchise were only attempted child murderers (such as The Sorceress in Yo TD)

The only thing that may be iffy is that Gaul's contender is Malefor who's possibly the worst villains of the C Ms in the Spyro franchise but because its confirmed that Gaul is a child killer and sadistically corrupted Cynder gives him a different stance on the heinousness scale

Final Verdict?

I think Gaul's a keeper personally. I also have an image for him if he goes through.

Sorry if the effort post is a bit dysfunctional, it's my first one and I typed this on my phone.

Aztec God BTW

Okay, so with a unanimous 18 , here's my write-up for Vapora:

• Daredevil vs. Vapora: Vapora is a sentient being made of gasoline vapour that relishes in setting innocent people on fire. Taking advantage of people who carelessly use gasoline to clean their homes, Vapora manipulates the fumes to open sources of heat so she can burn her victims alive. Preferring to target children and families, Vapora burns down an entire apartment building; giving a young girl third-degree burns and killing many of the tenants still trapped inside. She later sets a mother on fire in front of her own baby and attempts to burn down a garage containing two teenagers and a four-year old girl. Taking sadistic glee in the pain and suffering of others, Vapora represents the very worst dangers that gasoline fumes can bring.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Oct 29th 2021 at 8:58:26 AM

to Gaul.

Holy fuck.

Gaul

Literally Child Murder on his first appareance. In Spyro...woah

I am a tad bit skeptical of Gaul he seems bad enough but from what I have heard he is a Well-Intentioned Extremist who wants to help his fellow apes and get revenge on the dragons for their mistreatment. You only mentioned that he doesn't care about his troops dying in battle but I am not sure if that is enough to subvert it.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 29th 2021 at 6:06:26 AM

To me Gaul is just fuel by his hatred of dragons and was only serving Malefor for powers sake with no signs of W.I.E.

Yeah Unknown as you pointed out the Aztec God seems to have enough for personality to avoid GDV, good job on the reevaluation!

Yes to Hedon as well but gonna abstain on Gaul until we get more on the WIE business, though welcome aboard to all the new folks!

Oh if it’s just rhetoric to justify hatred then sure.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 29th 2021 at 1:09:57 PM

Normally I would agree but the thing that makes me really concerned is he wants revenge on the dragons specifically for the apes because they were mistreated by them.

"Long have we waited, long have we suffered! But soon, our master will return, and his coming shall bring forth a new age of power for the Apes, and we shall have our revenge!" This is the only quote I can think of his that be interpreted as W.I.E but ingame, the Apes are treated as a unsympathetic race of warmongering psychopaths attacking enslaving and murdering countless others.

Unless there is something that directly contradicts the fact he doesn't want revenge for his apes than I doubt he counts.

Yes to Aztec god.

Okay, all due respect but can people please vote on Nithriel and not ignore the post on the top of the page about her? This is about her whether she should be cut or not.

It's an 18 hour game I played through every side quest regardless of writing quality and found something that I think is at least important to discuss.

@Miraculous "So the sequel gave her redeeming qualities." Eh, it isn't really "redeeming". It really just means she doesn't have agency.

Edited by Gubbler on Oct 29th 2021 at 7:55:46 AM

I would upvote Gaul until you mentioned the Apes are nothing but unsympathetic Warmongering psychos, which gives me pause because that kinda implies they're always chaotic evil thus showing agency concerns.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Oct 29th 2021 at 9:15:53 AM

Okay yeah that also makes me concerned if they are Always Chaotic Evil, with these two things I am giving a Gaul.

There's never ever any explanation for why apes want "revenge" against dragons. Its even stated in the games lores that dragons were quite revered with only Malefor being the bad apple and Malefor was the one to form the army of apes.

Honestly up to interpretation because as a species because they're shown to be intelligent and aware of their actions unlike the grublins (Malefor's true army) which are basically a cross between golem and Tolkien orchestra.

Orcs* funky autocorrect

Edited by WetFlannels on Oct 29th 2021 at 6:20:58 AM