During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
No, the picture in the stylized version is still a picture of Ivo Shandor's mother. It's a (minor, granted) plot point in both the realistic and stylized versions that Ivo's mother looks exactly like Ilyssa. When they don't offer any elaboration on the picture in the stylized version, the dialogue makes it pretty damn clear that's not Ilyssa in the picture ("Ilyssa's a Shandor?" "Not that she knows of.").
So, I'm gonna go out on a limb here but I'm thinking no, the circumstances are still the same between both versions, and if he's keeping a pristine picture of his dear departed mother in his secret mad science lab, that's even stronger grounds to cut IMO.
I'm going to withhold judgment for now.
He doesn't keep. It's a crystal clear, perfect reason to cut. Let's stop hanging on to it and trying to find reasons of "maybe this..."
He's a cut.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Gorm
I’ve had enough Shandor for today, I’ll just withhold judgement.
Yeah in that case I agree we should cut Shandor.
The Draftsman of Doom
Unless there is solid proof—even a throwaway line from his own mouth—that indicates Shandor doesn't actually care about his mother? No dice; I am sticking with my cut vote, and that is my final word on the matter. Otherwise, we veer too far into Alternative Character Interpretation, which is meaningless to this item.
If consensus declares otherwise, I will accept it, but I am putting my foot down: I am sticking to my cut vote unless there is solid proof that Shandor does not care.
Shabbat Shalom, guys, and have a nice rest of the evening.
Edit: Super ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
'd.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 16th 2021 at 7:17:10 AM
Feels good, don't it?
RIP Toriyama
Cut Shandor. And to follow up with cuts that some may find regrettable? Mir and I are going through Danny Phantom for the Magnificent Bastard thread...and as I'm planning to propose this guy on MB soon, I rewatched his episode and—mayhaps unfortunately—I think he needs to be cut. His entry:
- Dark Danny note was once the otherwise-noble Danny Phantom in his timeline. He was born of a fusion between the ghost halves of Danny and his Arch-Enemy, Vlad Masters. The first thing Dark Danny does upon his conception is brutally murder his human half, before embarking on a campaign of random destruction for his own amusement. In the future, Dark Danny has conquered the world and turned it into an apocalyptic wasteland in the process. Realizing that other parties have been meddling in the time stream, Dark Danny decides to personally ensure his rebirth by making sure the catalyst that caused his transformation comes to pass. Since he was created following the deaths of everyone he loved, Dark Danny attempts to murder his parents, his sister, and his two best friends. Dark Danny stood out as being the darkest and most chilling villain in the series, even making the show's previous main villain Vlad Masters want to help and atone for his hand in his creation.
Now, first and foremost, lemme go ahead and clear the fact that Dark Danny isn't superbly heinous even by the standards of the show. Other villains threaten all life on Earth (still in that Saturday morning cartoon way of course), other villains threaten Danny's friends and family all at once...Dark Danny is definitely a more personal, serious threat, but he's not the be-all, end-all heinousness of the show.
But ultimately, the reason I'm bringing him up? Dark Danny doesn't have agency. The story quite simply goes: Danny witnesses his family die. He asks his human emotions be ripped out and separated from his ghost side. His ghost side, now lacking any human emotions, goes berserk and in a mad frenzy combines with Vlad Masters' ghost side...to which the narrative explicitly says Vlad's own evilness "overwhelmed" Danny's ghostly self, corrupting and merging both entities into one Dark Danny.
So yeah, put literally as bluntly as it is in the show? Dark Danny not only lacks the capacity for human emotions or feelings, but he was birthed by two ghost halves merging and the evilness of one overwhelming them both. Dark Danny explicitly says at one point, when bumping into his childhood friends, "Y'know, if I had even an ounce of human emotion left in me this would be a touching reunion. But of course, I surrendered that human half a long time ago."
Yes, Dark Danny does try to ensure his own creation by going back in time and kicking off the catalyst but... he's still lacking agency when he does it and is trying to keep himself alive. It's not an actual subversion of a Freudian Excuse when the person "subverting" it—by their very nature—doesn't have a choice in the matter both in terms of morality and survival.
The only other argument I've seen is "ghosts have moral agency in the show so Dark Danny does as well", but Dark Danny isn't an ordinary ghost. He's two ghost halves merged in a traumatic incident where human emotions were explicitly removed from the equation and evil corruption took place.
By the standards of what we're told in the story, Dark Danny is lacking in agency and thereby can't count here. It isn't even an M. Bison situation where he willingly ditched his human side to become more evil...he did it to escape despair and depression, him becoming evil was a byproduct of that, not the goal.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Current mood: sick of your shit
Lizzid people!
I'll abstain due to unfamiliarity with the show.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Sad but it's gotta be done. Cut him.
The First man
I did consider the concerning element of Dark Danny being formed from two ghost halves and thus pretty much Made of Evil. I’ll wait to vote.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Come to think of it yeah, ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to keeping him and regrettably so.
Yeah God rest Helen McCrory who was also almost Bellatrix before she played Narcissa believe it or not. She had to drop out due to being pregnant at the time.
Been meaning to watch Galidor for years. Final show to air on Fox Kids by the way.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 16th 2021 at 4:33:32 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Ehh, cut Danny.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Please do not press Bull for answers.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 16th 2021 at 7:44:20 AM
Feels good, don't it?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Having watched the episode, I personally disagree with on the lack agency argument, but I am going to vote cut anyways. Because I think you are right he's not heinous enough by the shows standard. He doesn't do anything other villains haven't. Add to that the agency concerns, even if I don't agree with them, and yeah a sad cut, but a cut anyways.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 16th 2021 at 6:37:58 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Why do you not agree, just wondering?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I mean I still feel he subverts that, and think that "no humanity left" was more just a quip, but I do acknowledge that Ravok brings up good points. And still voted cut on the grounds of him just not being heinous enough. So that is neither here nor there.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 16th 2021 at 6:44:38 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Was wondering how he had agency, but I guess he really doesn’t. Cut him.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Professor Gigachad
Abstain on Danny since I haven't seen the show but I will say I doubt this guy could be an MB even without him being a CM, he seems far too arrogant and petty.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The Emperor of Evil!
Also abstaining on Dark Danny since I haven't watched the whole Ultimate Enemy special beyond watching a few clips, also yeah, I agree with Ordeaux, there's also the fact he's also very sadistic so I doubt he'll count for MB.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Apr 16th 2021 at 7:47:20 AM
Woagh
Cut Dan either way. Had a hunch about the guy ngl.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Goku Black
Cut danny
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Moron
Cut Danny due to agency and heinousness
RIP Toriyama
Let's save the jabs about how he won't count for MB until I bring him up on that thread given I've more than proven I know the credentials for a MB to pass, yes?
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Lizzid people!
Leaning "cut" on DD, but before I formally vote, I'd like to ask for some clarification.
1. Are we sure the process actually did remove his human emotions? Maybe there's something I'm missing, but "now lacking emotions" and "goes berserk" seem mutually exclusive to me.
2. IIRC, there was an episode where Danny's ghost and human halves were separated, and while both of their personalities were altered, I don't think there was any explicit confirmation of either one having diminished emotional capacity.
Of course, this could just be my lack of memory showing (I haven't seen anything DP related in years), and this doesn't resolve the heinousness question or potential issues related to the merger with Vlad's ghost half (hence why I'm still leaning cut), but I'd like to see these points addressed just so I can be sure.
And yeah, let's save the issue of whether he counts as an MB for when it becomes relevant.
Yes to Gorm.
Abstain on Hazel.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread