Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Razznik, Ronin, and Emily
Not the Eye
to Razzik, Ronin and Emily
Yes to Ronin and Emily.
Buzz
Barbie and Clive only got 6 upvotes so far. Any more?
Ultimate Moral Compass
Ronin and Emily
Yes to Razznik, thinking on it, Ronin and Emily.
Lighty do you have Harrison btw?
Tree for Belgravia since I believe that one of my candidates from the old thread managed to squeak in.
- Belgravia
- Lady Caroline Bellasis, Countess of Brockenhurst, lost her son Edmund during the Battle of Waterloo. Learning from Anne Trenchard that Edmund fathered a son named Charles Pope, Lady Brockenhurst promises to keep silent but endeavors to make him a part of their family by working around her oath. Approaching Charles under the guise of investing in his business, Lady Brockenhurst invites him and the Trenchards to a reception at her London house, parading him around the room and drawing interest from her guests; when Anne confronts her, Lady Brockenhurst reveals that she wants people to guess Charles' true nature and punish Anne for speaking harshly about Edmund. Learning about Charles' attraction to her nephew's fiancée Maria Grey, Lady Brockenhurst starts encouraging Maria's relationship with Charles over her friend (and Maria's mother) Lady Templemore's objections, gleefully admitting to "corrupting" Maria. When Oliver attempts to slander Charles, Lady Brockenhurst creates her own plan to bring Charles into the family as a backup before he is revealed to be Edmund's legitimate son with Sophia.
- Susan Trenchard is James Trenchard's daughter-in-law and as much of a Social Climber as her father-in-law. Persuading her mother-in-law Anne to have her invited to a reception hosted by the Countess of Brockenhurst, Susan catches the eye of the Countess's nephew John Bellasis and has an affair with him, concocting one lie after another to conceal her trysts. Accompanying her in-laws to their estate at John's behest, Susan tricks Anne into revealing that James' dealings with his business partner Charles Pope are about more than just money. Learning she is pregnant with John's child, Susan suggests they marry after she divorces James' son Oliver. When John rejects her, Susan steals papers about Charles' true history as the Brockenhursts' grandson in hopes of ruining John. Making arrangements for her child's future at the family estate, Susan gets Oliver to comply with her plan by telling him she's giving him the life he's always wanted, a life that wouldn't be possible without her infidelity.
- Speer is Susan Trenchard's shrewd and observant personal maid. Learning of her mistress's interest in John Bellasis, Speer ferments the idea of Susan and John having an affair, intending to take advantage of a possible connection and always having an alibi ready whenever Susan met John. When John asks her for information about the Trenchards, Speer points him in the direction of other servants who might know more, keeping her own hands clean. After Susan shows Speer the papers about Charles Pope, Speer creates a cover story on the spot about how Susan acquired them, helping to get the guilty servants sacked, and blackmailing one about his black market deals, declaring that if she leaves, she'll be walking away with money and glowing praise, having made herself indispensable to Susan.
Haha, silly me.
- Dr. Harrison, the Evil Genius of Regine Dandridge's coven of vampries, is a jovial psychiatrist treating Charlie Brewster. So good at his role of gaslighting Charlie, Harrison manages to convince him vampires aren't real so he'll be vulnerable to Regine while ensuring Charlie is steadily blamed and isolated by all those around him. Luring Alex, Charlie's girlfriend, to a trap, Harrison is mortally wounded with a stake through the heart. Realizing to kill him would traumatize Alex further, Harrison throws himself on the stake, a good doctor to the last.
Woagh
Sure to Razznik and Emily.
Right, time for a brief intermission on our little Ninjago trip! Emerald gave me the go-ahead to post this guy since i happened to have the game on hand.
What's the Work?
LEGO Ninjago: Shadow of Ronin is a non-canon LEGO Adaptation Game in the LEGO Ninjago series, which at this point you guys should be very familiar with. Taking place after Master Chen's shenanigans, The Ninja end up getting their memories wiped and have to track down "Obsidian Weapons" to regain them. The culprit behind the wiping, meanwhile, has plans of his own...
Who is Ronin?
Debuting in this game, Ronin here is a ruthless mercenary dedicated to only one thing: that sweet, sweet cash.
What's he do?
So right off the bat, Ronin and his merry men launch a surprise attack on the Ninja dojo, disguising themselves as students of "Grand Sensei" Dareth. After the Ninja fight off the mercenaries, Ronin swoops in and uses an Obsidian Glaive to steal their memories of evets past season 1. When Sensei Wu instructs them to collect the other Obsidian Weapons to get their memories back, Ronin is one step ahead and sends his men after them, including some Anacondrai he brainwashed using the Glaive, with Ronin himself fighting the Ninja a few times. By the time the weapons were found however, it's revealed that Ronin had spent his time tracking down an "Elemental Forge", using it to resurrect the Nindroids to attack the Ninja with. As Sensei Wu explains, these Elemental Forges are key to opening a portal to the Spirit Realm, and via deduction the Ninja realize that Ronin intends to resurrect Master Chen in exchange for some fat cash. Unfortunately, when The Ninja split up to find the rest of the Forges, Ronin is once again ahead of them, not only snagging the Earth Forge, but also ambushing the Ninja and stealing the Fire and Ice forges when they collect them.
At this point, Sensei Wu suggests that they simply find the device that utilizes the Forge, the Elemental Fulcrum, and destroy it, and to this end recruit Lloyd and his mom to help track it down. However, it's revealed that Ronin was ahead of them again, and this time had brainwashed Lloyd's mom into finding the Fulcrum alongside the Ninja while luring them into a trap, with Ronin successfully escaping with everything he needs. The Ninja track him down to Chen's old island, now fortified with both his own men and Nindroids, and find him opening the portal to the spirit realm. For the final battle, Ronin uses the Forges against the Ninja, but ultimately they're able to destroy both the Forges and the Fulcrum itself. Ronin himself is able to escape in his jet while the Ninja destroy the portal itself, once again saving the day.
Is he Magnificent?
Eyup. The whole damn game consists of Ronin being one step ahead of The Ninja, constantly countering and outplaying everything they throw at him while making massive progress in his quest to revive his boss, coming within inches of his goal. The Ninja travel to a volcano? Set it up to explode. The Ninja find two of the four Forges? Wait for them to find it and steal it from them. The Ninja about to contact Lloyd's mom to find the Fulcrum? Hypnotize her into finding it for you while leading the Ninja into a trap. Dude's got all bases covered.
Is he a Bastard?
Tries to revive a ruthless conqueror and hypnotizes literally everyone and their mom. He's notably more outwardly villainous than in the cartoon, but even then he never really goes beyond basic villainy.
Overall?
How's he looking?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 20th 2023 at 2:11:27 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Goku Black
ronin
Jaded Techie Fox
to Shadow of Ronin!Ronin
Edited by DeathsApprentice on Mar 20th 2023 at 12:29:17 PM
Trust you? The only person I can trust is myself.
Lies and Violence!
Thorne and Game!Ronin, great work!
Ronin.
A bit late with my harpist writeup, sorry:
- "Die drei Lieder", by Ludwig Uhland: The harpist is a young man determined to avenge his brother who was treacherously slain by King Sifrid. Joining the crowd of musicians at court, he steps forward when Sifrid asks who has the most beautiful song to perform. Announcing he knows three songs, the harpist proclaims, as the first one, that the king murdered his brother, and as the second one, challenges him to a fight to the death. Defeating and killing the king, the harpist announces his third and loveliest song: a triumphant declaration that his revenge is complete.
Edited by AutumnLeaves on Mar 20th 2023 at 11:40:41 AM
Not the Eye
to Ronin
To Ronin
Ultimate Moral Compass
Ronin
So it's time. I'm about to propose: my first attempt at a CM/MB Crossover! So without further ado...
What’s the Work?
Robo Aleste, aka Dennin Aleste: Nobunaga and his Ninja Force, is an installment in the Aleste series of 16-bit shmups. While a lot of the entries have barebone Excuse Plots, since this entry was released for the Sega CD, that means this one's actually got a story, with several cutscenes and stilted voice acting to boot.
In 15th Century Japan, an airship from an alternate dimension crashes into the country. Finding several suits of mech armor and artillery, this event sparked a new age of technology as new suits, weapons, and flying ships were created. But that also meant a new age of war.
You play as Kage Okami, a member of the White Fang ninja clan who pilot their Aleste mech suits in the name of their master: Oda Nobunaga. As Kage slays all who stand in Nobunaga's way, he finds out that not all is as it seems, that the aliens who he must fight are actually not the bad guys here.
Who is He?
Oda Nobunaga, in actuality Lucifer, is a warlord who seeks the destruction of the world so that he can have a chance at conquering it. But beyond that, Nobunaga proves himself to be far more toned down and cunning compared to most depictions of him.
What does he do?
Able to survive the chaos of the new industrial age of war alongside seven other warlords, Nobunaga's able to use his "demonic talents" to expand his power throughout Japan. But when Nobunaga's partner Dosan Saito was suddenly murdered by his own son, that left Nobunaga having to defend himself against the other warlords all by himself, with his armies vanquished by the troops... but nobody knew that Nobunaga had a final trump card in the form of the White Fang, whom he's kept hidden in the mountains.
Manipulating the White Fang to fight on his side, Nobunaga sends them (primarily Kage) out to slay his opponents so that nobody can stop him in his quest to conquer the world. This includes the alien army led by grand duchess Astaros, whose forces are all slain by the manipulated Kage. With many dying by his hand, including Astaros and her entire army, Nobunaga comes within inches of claiming his place as world's destroyer and new leader...
Except he's killed just like how he was in real life, assassinated by a lone samurai. With his grand plan now foiled, Nobunaga ends the game pretty accepting of his death.
- Nobunaga: "Just one more step, and I could have grabbed the entire world... Such is life..."
Is he charming? Intelligent? Able to think on his feet?
Nobunaga, while given little screen time, makes use of it to show how manipulative he can be. He gets an entire battalion on his side by getting them to believe he's using them for a good cause, has them hidden for years without anybody knowing of their existence, and comes very close to achieving everything he ever wanted. He even accepts his own death with relative ease.
Unlike other depictions of the demon lord, Nobunaga prefers letting his cronies do the work for him, chilling back as he manipulates his troops to do his bidding as he grows one step closer to victory.
While his death itself can be seen as anticlimactic (Kage never fights him after learning the truth, he just shows up right when Nobunaga's killed by Akechi Mitsuhide), Nobunaga's able to still accept his demise, even though he was close to winning. No tantrums, no hissy fits, nothing. Just "Such is life" and dead.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
Nobunaga's big plan involves him killing a lot of people so that nobody can stop him from unleashing his true demon strength to eliminate the world. Hell, he's literally Satan himself in this version.
And yet, Nobunaga's shown not to be super petty or sadistic in his crimes, primarily acting as a "I wanna destroy and rule the world!" type of antagonist with none of the cruelty of the game's other villain, Tetsu, who gleefully massacres a village to test out his new mech suit's capabilities.
It helps that the game is an alternate universe that doesn't include some of Nobunaga's more... gruesome real life crimes. None of the guy's usual pettiness or cruelty is seen, instead just an ambitious warlord and demon who wants to rule, no matter how many people stand in his way.
So to summarize, while the scope of his plans makes him more of a CM, his great ability to properly strategize and manipulate the White Fang into working for him, his acceptance of his own demise, and the fact that his crimes wouldn't be out of place in a Saturday morning action cartoon shows that he at least has potential to be an MB.
Verdict?
I think he counts.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Nope. They're just in his way, the aliens want to stop him, and that's why he wants to kill them. The game's storytelling is very simple, nothing really complex about it at all.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Mar 20th 2023 at 2:49:16 AM
"No running in the halls!"
I hate spoilers
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
On your CM EP, you mentioned that he's killed both humans and aliens, but is he display Fantastic Racism towards the latter? Also, it seems like the toning down of his heinousness has more to do with not showing the worst of his crimes onscreen, so I really don't know what to think of him, especially since the game's page feels barren.
Edited by 227someguy on Mar 20th 2023 at 5:49:26 AM
Everyone look at my sandbox
Hmm... it's quite barebones thanks to the game and I'm getting the feeling the scope of the crimes are coming out here a bit more than the manipulations. It's hard to find a character who fits both tropes from such a work and I think CM may hit Nobusatan a bit better than MB. Definitely worth discussing though!
"Destroy and remake the world" has generally been one I struggle with tbh... it's so egotistical even if it's a "large" crime.
Edited by 43110 on Mar 20th 2023 at 5:55:37 AM
Yeah honestly I don't see the things that would push him out of a crossover. Most potential crossovers I find are killed by pettiness/sadism or just the scope and scale of what they need to do are really delved into and/or the personal cruelty is really gross. I'm not getting any of that here. He's got the scale of a potential crossover, but he just wants to rule nothing further. I think I'm leaning . I will say the thing about most crossovers is their goal has to be selfish/egotistical, otherwise they wouldn't be a CM.
Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 20th 2023 at 6:06:15 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I'm not arguing against him being a CM, I'm saying I generally take issue with the magnificent label going to a CM so ego-stroking they want to destroy the world to recreate in their image and all that implies. It might just be hard to glean thanks to the minimalist nature of the character writing but I'm pausing.
No I know you're not, I'm saying I don't think his CMness is really killing him here. I can see maybe the lack of character doing it, but from what Jackie is saying I think there's enough.
Ronin.
On the other hand the minimalist nature of the plot really hinders how bad the deliverance of his crimes could be and the bareness of it all seems to leave him just a manipulator with a Face Death with Dignity moment... earnestly this might work in his favour.
Not the Eye
to Oda for now.
Our first CM/MB attempt on this thread. While reading the EP Oda definitely seems bad on a grand scale, but it doesn’t seem personally deplorable nor do the heinous crimes outweighs his manipulation and magnificence. I’m comfortable giving Oda a for now
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 20th 2023 at 6:18:57 AM
I'd have more issue if the plot went into the impacts of his deeds more but I think the lightness of plot makes me lean yes as well, good work jackie!
