Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Not the Eye
Disscusion time is 3 days, bit we normally allow few hours earlier if candidate has gotten enought votes.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Also, will any of the Puppet Combo stuff go together?
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Sorry, but I’m confused by what you mean.
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Are any of the keepers from Puppet Combo in the same continuity?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Oh, yes, everyone still keeps. Tom and Burr are the novelization versions, and Friedstein and Carl’s mom, who are in the Totrue Star Studio Timeline with Slaw, still stands out due to the attempted Omnicide and the child prostitution respectively. and the two other potential candidates (that I ain’t gonna do yet) are from the original timeline
Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Jul 19th 2023 at 11:06:04 AM
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Are the novelizations the same timeline? Are any of the other keepers the same timeline?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Exactly. Though that DOES explain how others can count despite Slaw being so bad.
Edited by ACW on Jul 19th 2023 at 11:19:32 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Moron
Just to clarify, I can tell where Mermaid is getting confused - ACW is asking because he needs to know which of the works go in the same tree and which page they go to
What is the work?
Legend of Zelda: Oracle Games are two dual game in the Zelda series that has Link transported by the Triforce to lands Labryanna and Holodrum to save them and the oracles from the Veran and Onox who have been summoned by an enemy that served the King of Evil in the past.
Who is Twinrova and what does she do?
Twinrova are the twin sisters Kotake and Koume who raised Ganondorf and aided him in his conquest of Hyrule brainwashing by brainwashing Nabooru and fighting against the hero of time come back years later to revive their master Ganondorf so he can start his rein of evil again by completing the dark rites and summoning Veran and Onox to light the flames, and after the two flames are lit they kidnap Zelda to light the third flame and use her life to revive Ganon and when they fail they take their own life to bring him back.
Redeeming Qualities?
While they are said to be Ganondorf's mothers who raised him their relationship is never shown to be that of a parent loving their child but fanatics listening to the orders to their king of evil never referring to him as a son that they care about but more so of a god that they praised from the moment he was born and when they die in ocarina of time Ganondorf doesn't even seem to care. While Ganondorf does have their names on his swords in the Wind Waker their is not further show of their relationship along with the fact that TOTK Ganondorf also has their name on his sword that is not being used to indicate any care.
While their end in Oot of time is funny all that humor is gone in the Oracle games.
Are they bad enough?
While Veran and Onox do the heavy lifting they are the ones to have them summoned to being with and all the damage that they caused is said to have been needed to have the flames be lit to being with them planning on bringing back a man who almost killed the Gorons, and killed almost all the knights of Hyrule along with spreading drought and pestilence back to life.
And while villains like Yuga, Ghirahim and Demise do exist they don't have the power of the triforce, the power stated to destroy the world or are the leaders of all the demons nor does the scale of their plan cause such wide scale suffering.
Verdict? You decide
Edited by umaprasis on Jul 19th 2023 at 8:26:14 AM
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Ohh? Apologies for my confusion, but when you say it, it’s like something such as with Game of Thrones where the complete monsters are put in two separate folders for the show and book since they are too different? Just trying to understand here, lol-
If you mean same timelines as the other games, no, they are completely separated from theta. And if you are also asking if the two books share the same continuity, it is left ambiguous
Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Jul 19th 2023 at 11:43:19 AM
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay, let me ask this first: Are the two novel keepers (Tom and Neokalus) from the same timeline?
Edited by ACW on Jul 19th 2023 at 11:40:10 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
twinorva.
The whole kill themselves just to revive him Is too much Undying Loyalty to call their devotion totally fanatical.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Messenger from another dimension.
Haven’t Twinrova already been downvoted?
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So the two books MAY share a continuity, but it's unclear. Okay, I'll put them together to be safe.
Now, do any of the following share a continuity?
- Father Friedstein
- Carol's mother
- Slaw
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Yes. All 3 share the same continuity (The Torture Star Videos’ Timeline)
My thing about their "undying loyality" is that not also did they worship Ganondorf as the King of Evil from when he was born but also the fact that Ganondorf originally wanted to help his people which Twinrova is never shown to help him do only supporting him as their king of evil.
I looked up talk of Twinrova before and she was down voted on the idea that she had cared for Ganondorf as her own child.
Edited by umaprasis on Jul 19th 2023 at 9:03:19 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Aight writeup time. Feedback would be appreciated folks!
- Atlantis: The Lost Empire (Script first draft):
- Rourke, lacking any of the superficial charm of his film counterpart, is a much darker character here and is a member of the Kaiser. The thuggish commander of the expedition crew, Rourke shows a callous demeanour to the horrific deaths of his crewmembers, even threatening Milo when he suggests they turn back. Wanting to acquire the Heart Crystal of Atlantis to allow Germany to usher in a "New World Order", Rourke happily acknowledges that doing this would doom Atlantis and it's inhabitants to decay and die in the dark. Having Preston Whitmore rendezvous at the entrance to Atlantis, Rourke sets up the man and his crew to die via a German U-Boat attack. During the climax, Rourke betrays his ally Helga by shooting her and kicking her off his Zeppelin and attempts to sadistically murder Milo, musing about dragging the death out to an agonising end. Having a much grander scope of ambition compared to his film counterpart's lust for greed, Rourke is a deranged sadist willing to kill both friend and foe to achieve his goals.
- Red Beard is a pillaging Viking out to discover Atlantis. Raiding a village, Red Beard forces a monk to give up the map to Atlantis for the price of his village being allowed to live—a deal Red Beard goes back on with him razing the village to ashes and killing all within out of amused sadism. When one of his men gets uneasy due to concerns there's something within the ocean, Red Beard tosses the man off his boat to drown in the frigid waters, threatening the rest of his crew with the same fate should they question him.
- Klaber is an American Neo-Nazi and Voller's trigger-happy right hand attack dog who shares his boss' goal of rewriting history for a Nazi success. Enforcing Voller's "No witnesses" policy with sadistic glee, Klaber guns down anyone who witnesses Voller's plans, even for simply being there at the wrong time. Captured by the CIA along with Voller for being reckless, Klaber slaughters all of his captors, gloating to his handler Mason before executing her. Tailing the heroes, Klaber infiltrates Indy's ally Renaldo's boat and wipes out his entire crew. Sent back in time by the Antikythera to a Roman siege along with Voller, Klaber ignores his boss' attempt to try and save themselves and instead focuses on mowing down dozens of Roman soldiers with maniacal contempt, regarding them as savages.
Goku Black
Anyway this is sort of a collab with emerald emperor who will Handle the write up.
Whats the work?
Zatanna & the Ripper is a fantasy webcomic starring Zatanna Zatara and John Constantine.
Quoting The trope description:
The story follows Zatanna, an aspiring stage magician (and wielder of real magic) on her 21st birthday, where she is told by her father Zatara that he is having her go solo, much to her shock. Of course things keep going downhill from there when her dad gets attacked by an enigmatic sorceress and she gets sent back in time to 1888. To Whitechapel. Now she must find her way home and protect her new friends from a certain serial killer…
'Who is The Ventriloquist?'
This isn't Arnold Wesker by the way but Shauna Belzer, his successor aka Ventriloquist III.
Anyway Shauna and her brother Ferdie were taught by their parents ventriloqyy with Shauna being second best to her brother. Shauna responded by having the screws in Ferdie's swing loosened so he would die. Committing her first murder as a child and later turned h in into her doll. Becoming obsessed with murder, she broke into Iron Heights as an adult after killing Th r guard to meet her idol : Murmur (The Flash's Serial Killer member of his rogues gallery). When murmur revealed he was remorseful after all he had done, in a rage she killed Jim and turned him into her personal doll.
Gaining an obsession with killing zatanna whose performances have taken the world by storm and wanting to add her corpse to her collection, she stalks her. An attack by allura ends up dragging every one to whitechapel 1888. Discovering Jack the ripper trying to kill one of his victims, Shauna murders him and his victim. Deciding to outshine and double his victim count to go down history. She begins having her corpse puppets kill Zatanna's friends in the whitechapel prostitutes or bystanders.
Anyway capturing John Constantine, and the rest of zatanna's allies. Shauna reveals she plans to murder them right in front of her and than kill her and turn her Into her main puppet. Anyway Zatanna beats her and she's killed (or may be sent to another dimension. I dunno the art work is a bit unclear).
Mitigating factors?
Nope. She is an Ax-Crazy lunatic whose motivations amount to wanting to upstage Zatanna. Been like that since a child where she you know killed her brother out of jealousy.
Heinous standard?
The greater scope villain Allura is a generic bad guy with a vague end goal and a vague body count. We may see more than enough of Murmur's crimes in flashbacks. But he's also genuinely mentally ill like his comic counterpart.
In terms of The other webtoons. Redhood, Batman family adventures and vixen nyc. Shauna is easily the worst in that not just this series but only surpassed by General Maksai who is more powerful than her (Shauna is Just a minor telepathic). She replicates and surpasses the original Jack the ripper murders, killed her own brother and plans to kill all of Zatanna's friends in front of her and plans to turn Zatanna into a corpse puppet. Pass.
'Conclusion?'
Easily.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Classy, Refined, Unstable
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Abstain on Twinrova
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Goku Black
Yeah. Their all loosely Connected.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lies and Violence!
Eager yes to the Ripper! As mir said, I’ll be doing the write up. Yes to Magnum and Samuel as well, no to Twinrova.
Yes, it’s a shared universe. Though shouldn’t they be on the DCU page instead of webcomics? We do the same with Marvel, apparently. Gotcha.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jul 19th 2023 at 12:26:34 PM
Goku Black
Umh to clarify. That punisher webcomic is a 616 comic. (As the guy who did that entry) As In Canon to it. It was even printed as a normal comic. It's why it's their. These are their own universe so putting them on the main dcu page would be weird since their webcomics.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 19th 2023 at 9:23:23 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Ventriloquist. I have been meaning to read this webcomic.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 19th 2023 at 11:46:10 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yes to Whispers. To me, the part about him not misgendering Nomi seems akin to Shan Yu not acting sexist when he finds out Mulan is a woman.
Gotta ask, since it has been a while since I was last on the threads, I can only do the write ups after the 3 days, right? Not anytime sooner?
Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Jul 19th 2023 at 10:37:38 AM
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.