Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
I understand why everyone would abstain on this film, but I'll have to say ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Giselle because what she did to those poor kids is HORRIFYING.
Sure to Giselle.
Edited by Beast on Jul 18th 2023 at 6:49:21 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Well, y’know what I say. Controversy or not. Candidates are still candidates. for Giselle, no matter the work
Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Jul 18th 2023 at 9:54:59 AM
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
Yeah, sorry Flowering. People are welcome to vote and I encourage others doing it, but I'm not comfy here.
What's the work?
Sense8 is a work envisioned by the Wachowski sisters and J. Michael Straczynsi. A bizarrely compelling sci fi drama that also acts as a celebration of sexuality, 8 strangers across the world find themselves oddly connected after a strange event. The 8 learn they're "Sensates," a type of psychic human. The connection is called a Cluster, and the 8 must help one another through their minds, their personal drama, and a mysterious organization called BPO after them. They are:
- Will, a Chicago cop
- Nomi, a San Francisco transgender activist and hacker
- Sun, a South Korean businesswoman and kickboxer
- Lito, a Mexican actor hiding his sexuality
- Capheus, A Kenyan bus driver
- Kala, an Indian pharmacist in an arranged marriage to the nicest man ever
- Wolfgang, a German mercenary
- Riley, an Icelandic DJ
They find themselves hunted by a mysterious organization called BPO. And the man at the heart of it? Our villain.
Whispers.
Who is Whispers?
Real name, Dr. Milton Bailey Brandt. Whispers is a powerful Sensate who works for BPO as its top enforcer. Previusly, Whispers awakened as a Sensate with 7 other members of his cluster. To strengthen himself, Whispers hunted down each of them and murdered them, torturing them and absorbing their power. Incidentally, the death of a Cluster member is traumatic as each member of the group feels it. Whispers did it seven times, earning the nickname "The Cannibal" among sensates. Allying with BPO, a mysterious organization that seeks to understand and control the Sensates, Whispers became their best and began to hunt Sensates. Whispers has annihilated clusters, torturing the members and consuming them. He also lobotomizes his victims for a special purpose.
Whispers' experience with his clusters' murder led him to experience death seven times and it's something that genuinely frightens him. So he intends on keeping as many lobotomized Sensates around as possible to spread his consciousness to, in effect achieving a sort of immortality. Whispers became aware of Will Gorski as a child and has kept tabs. When Will awakens, he is pursued by Whispers, who murders his superior at BPO who tries to help Will after Will blackmails him.
Will learns of evidence of a girl named Sara Patrell, a Sensate who Whispers tutored, then horrifically experimented on until she expired. She was ten When confronted, Whispers' reaction? "Who?" When Nomi Marks is captured, Whispers promptly tries to lobotmize her, stopped only when Nomi's girlfriend Amanita saves her.
The Sensates' mentor Jonas, manages to help them against Whispers. Whispers begins to forgo collateral damage. The Sensates ultimately manage to unite and get one over on Whispers and Will beats him down, taking him captive and luring BPO's Chairman out of hiding, whereupon a complicated series of double crosses lead to the Chairman's death and BPO under better and more benevolent leadership.
Whispers ultimately attempts to escape with the aid of another villain named Lila, but as he flees in the Chairman's helicopter, Wolfgang reveals he came prepared with a rocket launcher and blows them to hell.
The series ends with Nomi and Amanita's wedding, then a dance party and a literal psychic orgy as each of the Sensates celebrates with their loved ones (Will and Riley get together, and Kala's love triangle issues with the dangerous Wolfgang and kindhearted Rajan are solved when she chooses both and Wolfgang and Rajan love one another as much as they do her)
Mitigating issues?
So, Whispers is honestly a fantastic villain. The sheer menace he emanates is second to none in the show. The Chairman might keep but he's kinda a non-entity. Whispers? Whispers has hunted and tortured countless Sensates, has no compunction murders innocents, lobotomizes innocent people in a fate worse than death and murdered a little girl in his experiments. He's an unbelievable sadist with no morals whatsoever in his pursuit of immortality.
The only rub is Whispers is revealed to have a family and he brags how happy they are, with his wife and daughter. During the Christmas special, Whispers is mentally taking time from the festivities to hunt his victims, but then returns to being a happily family man.
but as Whispers is more stressed, he shows himself as emotionally callous and his view of family? It's a sense of superiority more than anything. In the finale movie, Whispers is scornful of Nomi and Amanita and reveals his true thoughts: he sees human connections as "pets" without any real affection whatsoever. He likes it, he enjoys it...but it's not real emotion to him. Whispers is a sociopath through and through.
Keep in mind we're talking a guy who was connected mentally and spiritually to 7 other human beings to the point he experienced their deaths like it was his own, from their POV...and he did it all seven times solely to grow stronger. and all he kept from it was a hunger to never, ever die.
Conclusion?
Yes to Whispers.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 18th 2023 at 6:57:15 AM
Yes to Whispers.
I have kind of a weird post this morning. Everyone remember when I cut the villain of the infamously terrible Ecks VS Sever? Turns out there were two GBA games made off the film, both of which are agreed to be vastly superior.
I'm gonna talk about the first of these games, from 2002, which was based on an earlier, more coherent version of the film's screenplay...
- The nasty director of the NSA, Gant is playing the NSA and the CSI against each other in a power play, getting dozens of good officers killed in the process (oddly enough the game is better about averting What Measure Is a Mook? than the movie). Gant seeks to control both agencies when he's done, pitting Ecks and Sever against each other for most of the game.
- Sever used to be one of Gant's most trusted agents until she turned on him and went on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge. The reason is simple; Gant killed her entire family. As well as her entire village, which had the unfortunate luck to be built near an arms depot Gant wanted wiped out. Gant had the depot airbombed—the village with it, killing everyone there.
- Gant even throws his corrupt CSI ally under the bus to be killed by Ecks and Sever, before trying to kill them both as the Final Boss.
- Gant in the original movie fails the action standard—he kills a mook, he killed Sever's family offscreen, he has a vague plot involving nanobots—but in the 2002 GBA game, Gant's heinousness is a lot more in-your-face. He didn't just kill Sever's family, he wiped out a village full of innocent people with them as collateral because it was convenient for him.
- Nothing.
Edited by Scraggle on Jul 18th 2023 at 7:57:55 AM
Belated King Louis XIV. I thought I did an EP on him years ago which proved unsuccessful, what changed?
Yes to Gant. Kylo, my bad on the old one. It was years ago, I didn't remember how bad he was. I can't remember every EP from the better part of a decade ago. Full credit to you for being first.
Nah, you get credit; I think you made a better argument.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Not the Eye
To Whispers and Gant
Gonna give to Giselle as well.
Goku Black
whispers and Gant
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Whispers and Gant.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Whispers. A fantastic villain from a truly phenomenal show!
to Gant as well.
Whispers and Gant.
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Whispers and Grant
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Whispers, Grant, and Giselle
Ultimate Moral Compass
Whispers and Gant
Yes to Whispers and Robert Gant
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Elijah, Franklin, Gisele, Whisper, Gant
Abstain on Ganon
Yes, yes, old boy, we'd like nothing more than to stay and be a part of your primitive, barbaric society, but duty calls, duty calls...
Giselle
The reason I proposed Ganon from his tenure in A link to the past is not only because the info that Hyrule Historia has went against the backstory of the game but also because the stories couldn't function with info given for present day events.
Ganon in Zelda 1 a game the A link to the past is a prequel to leading an army the to invade Hyrule for the triforce, and being able angry at Zelda shattering the wisdom and sending his army out to get the triforce pieces while hold and imprisoning Zelda after hearing her plans which wouldn't work with Ganon being a mindless monster Hyrule Historia says he is.
Also Ganon being surprised that a hero with the master sword could be a threat after fighting another one years before because he somehow fought because said Hero was easy for some reason and he made no mention of that same hero?
Also there being ancient hyrulian text at the Master Sword's pedestal when it is said that the Master Sword was made by them for Ganon and needing 3 pendants to use the Master Sword.
I just think that there are some things that within that are shown in the present day of both A Link to the past and Zelda 1 that give me the feeling that the A link to the Past told said in Hyrule Historia is its own version.
Edited by umaprasis on Jul 18th 2023 at 8:16:15 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Gant.
One question for Whispers. I take it his alleged respect for pronouns are Pragmatic Villainy or Politically Correct Villainy? I found the following on his page.
- Even Evil Has Standards: He may have tried to have her lobotomized, but Whispers never fails to use Nomi's proper pronouns and name - especially noteworthy considering it's more than her own mother can manage.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 18th 2023 at 11:13:34 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Unless he specifically states he has standards against bigotry that just seems to be a case of "not an asshole every waking second" thing which isn't redeeming
Anyway, not touching the Sound of freedom guy
Gant, Whispers
No to Ganon, yes the continuity is wonky, but that's just the result of later retcons, which take precedence over the older stuff
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Lizzid people!
Yes for Gant and Whispers
I don't quite think "Isn't a transphobe" is much a redeeming quality if it's not peppered with some moral fiber. He sees Nomi as a woman because she is. He also intends to lobotomize her to be one of his backup drones. He has no moral standards on transgender people whatsoever.
One can see trans people as real and valid and still be a total sociopath who doesn't care about them. Whispers qualifies there
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 18th 2023 at 8:44:58 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Thanks for clearing that up. Cementing my yes.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 18th 2023 at 11:48:55 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Have seen bits and pieces of the movie—I like to torture myself like that—it's subtle but there is QAnon/far-right rhetoric all over the place. The people are always welcome to vote but I'm personally abstaining.