Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
A coupla mammals makin' gravy
I'm going to lean yes to the scientist based on the precedent the Gold-Toothed Doctor sets, but my memory of Revengeance is extremely hazy, so I'll welcome any other opinions.
Anyway, my next Saint. We're returning to the original Leslie Charteris stories, specifically the novea collection The Saint Goes West...
What has Dr. Ludwig Julius done?
- The villain of the novella "(The Saint in) Arizona". Dr. Julius initially appears to be an effete, non-threatening associate of crooked land baron Max Valmon. In reality, Dr. Julius is the kind of man that would "make Max look like a squeamish school-teacher." He's a Nazi, specifically one of Hitler's Deputy Kommissars.
- Dr. Julius is in Arizona seeking to buy a ranch called the Circle Y off its owner, Don Morland. Preceding this, Dr. Julius murders both Morland's brother Frank and his innocent ranch-hand "Smoky" to try and scare Morland into an easy deal. When Don Morland doesn't sell, Dr. Julius steps up his game.
- Kidnapping Don Morland, his innocent daughter Jean, and Simon Templar, Dr. Julius—for seemingly no other reason than shits and giggles—decides to force Simon to torture Don at gunpoint, making the Saint flog Don with a quirt in front of Jean. Dr. Julius' alternative is to have Jean tortured one of his sadistic mooks, a former guard at Dachau concentration camp:
"Miss Morland herself may need some…er…psychological conditioning. I was hoping that this would be sufficient. But if you object, it can be applied to her directly. She can be brought out here, and stripped. And then she can be beaten by Neumann. Neumann is quite an expert—he was a guard in Dachau for a time. She would have to receive one hundred lashes: ten for every one which you refused to give to her father. The choice is entirely up to you…"
- After having successfully forced the Saint to give Don ten lashes—which leaves the otherwise unflappable Saint sickened and shaken—Julius details his Evil Plan: since Don has proved so stubborn, he'll have Jean sign over the deed to the Circle Y instead. And to ensure Jean signs no matter what, Julius is going to have Don shipped out into Germany to a concentration camp. He boasts that if Jean does everything he says, he'll make sure Don lives in relative comfort…but if she doesn't, Julius will personally ensure Don faces all the horrors of the concentration camp.
- And why does Julius want this stupid ranch? Simple. There's a hundred tons of cinnabar beneath the Circle Y, and in that cinnabar is mercury. Julius wants the ranch so he can use the mercury to make loads and loads of German bombs and weapons, ensuring that "thousands of men will be killed and cities will be blasted with what there is on this ranch."
- As his final touch, Dr. Julius attempts to kill Simon by means of the ore crusher he's using to mine the cinnabar. In a heated scuffle, Simon tosses Julius into the ore crusher to suffer that same fate himself.
- Absolutely nothing. Dr. Julius is one of the most sadistic villains in the entire series and Simon himself notes that "out of a lot of yellow-bellied swine that I've met, you could take a very distinguished place."
- The WWII-era stories of The Saint upped the ante when it came to the villains Simon Templar fought, which means all of them automatically stand out above 95% of the other villains the Saint fought from the 1920s to the 1980s (i.e. almost every single villain not named Rayt Marius or Kane Luker). These included not just Nazis but war racketeers who betrayed their own country for a buck. Some choice examples:
- Heinrich Friede (The Saint in Miami): the leader of a Nazi ring brewing anti-American sentiment in Europe who massacres the crew of an entire ship because they happen to be inconvenient to his plans
- Siegfried Maris ("The Sizzling Saboteur") the leader of a Nazi arms factory sabotage ring who burns a man alive in one of the series' most horrific murders; despite that, he's lacking anything else exceptional that would push him
- Allen Uttershaw ("The Black Market") a truly slimy vulture of a man who steals iridium and sabotages American war industries, aware of the fact that "a lot of poor damn helpless bastards [are] having their guts blown out and dying in the muck so that [Uttershaw] can buy himself a bigger cigar"...he's gross, but the trouble is he's in the same "war profiteer" niche as Rayt Marius and Kane Luker, who are both infinitely worse than him
- Hobart Quennel (The Saint Steps In) another treacherous American war profiteer sabotaging the USA from the inside: same issues as Uttershaw, and he seems to be to a degree Obliviously Evil (even if Simon himself admits that's no redeeming quality and that Quennel is as bad as any Nazi)
- Dr. Julius' competition in this era is stiff, but ultimately, he's the only villain of the bunch (save maybe Friede, and we'll talk about him after this) whose end game explicitly entails the death of thousands of people. That kind of scale coupled with his cruelty means Dr. Julius is just a hair beneath Rayt Marius and Kane Luker in terms of overall heinousness, and both Rayt and Luker have far more resources (not to mention page-time) than him.
Edited by Starkrafty on Mar 24th 2024 at 11:35:16 AM
Now we're cookin'! While nobody's lookin'! We're family! Culinarily!
Just a starting content creator
Not familiar with the series personally, but I'll say yes to Dr. Julius.
Check out my YouTube channel! I make audiobooks and whatever else I feel like!
Ultimate Moral Compass
Abstain on Scientist, since I feel Sundowner does the same stuff but much worse on a grander scale, but I can still see where you’re getting at.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Julius
Edited by therealjackieboy on Mar 24th 2024 at 8:57:43 AM
"No running in the halls!"
Yes to Julius but I'll have to think on the scientist: he's awful but as you said everything he does is under orders and I'm not sure I'm okay with calling the Gold-Tooth Doctor a precedent when he invented the procedure to convert potential candidates into taking Father's Wrath and becoming the Fuhrer. Sundowner is the real standout under Armstrong.
Gentle Laborer
Julius
Officialy abstaining on Charming and Scientist but leaning ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
—The PSA seems way too wacky for me to feel comfortable upvoting Charming, and as for the Scientist, I remember his character feeling like a cog in the machine.
Julius, Scientist, & Charming… Jesus Christ
I'm OK with Charming, the short's vibe is wonky as all get-out but imo Reggie is portrayed consistently nastily enough for the trope.
A more certain for Julius.
....Phenomenal
for Julius.
Leaning for the Scientist though. Sundowner casts a long shadow, and I think the resource argument only goes so far when they're working on the same scheme for the same organization.
Just a starting content creator
I'd still like to argue that holding a child as a human shield is a unique crime nobody else commits in the series, but I understand if that alone isn't enough. I'm still glad I was able to make a case at least.
Check out my YouTube channel! I make audiobooks and whatever else I feel like!
Sundowner uses the brains of kids for his war purposes, holding one hostage isn't anything special by comparison, going to give a .
Just a starting content creator
Yes to Dr. Ludwig Julius
Writeup:
Terror At Oakheart: The nameless alien entity crashed near Teddy's house and corrupted him into a serial killer, whom it uses to murder many people, so it could feed on their corpses. Mentally tormenting Teddy, as it forces him to commit murders, the entity ressurected Teddy when he got killed by Ashley and has him slaughter the police officers at the police station and campers and their dog at Camp Oakheart, turning nearly all of the victims into it's zombie slaves. Having undead Teddy drag Ashley to it, so it could possess her, the entity furiosly devoured Teddy, when he failed to kill Sheriff Russell, who came to rescue Ashley, before the entity tried to murder Russell itself.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Mar 25th 2024 at 12:12:23 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Julius.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Not the Eye
Julius
Abstain on the Scientist and Charming
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Curious: Uttershaw and Quennel get points for being traitors, or is that still nothing compared to Marius and Luker?
Edited by ACW on Mar 25th 2024 at 5:45:37 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
ACW, do you know what page was Goth's writeup was posted to? I'm not seeing it on Monster/ComicBooksIToZ or YMMV/Silverwing.
Edited by Arawn999 on Mar 25th 2024 at 5:21:13 AM
Julius
Weak to Charming
scientist
Holding a child hostage is very standard for MGS
to the Desperado Scientist.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Arawn: It's at Sandbox.Monster Comic Books I To Z. They haven't gotten to the swaps yet.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yes to Dr. Ludwig Julius
Cross-wired freak
Caesar
Yes to Julius
Ok, I tossed around some Cyberpunk characters to interested parties, so expect quite a few of these being discussed from multiple sources in coming weeks, but for now lemme continue my own candidates!
The Osiris Chip is an adventure under the Cyberpunk 2020 banner. In the world of Cyberpunk, decking yourself out in "chrome"—aka cybernetics—is a cool, fashionable, and powerful way to upgrade yourself, but the more you make yourself metal, the higher your chances are of succumbing to "cyberpsychosis", a mental condition that arises when you push your fleshy brain too far, too fast into technological advancement and become a raging, homicidal beast. The Osiris Chip sees someone trying to take advantage of that condition on a mass scale:
Who is Charles Westhaven? What has he done?
- Charles Westhaven is a Humanatech scientist tasked to oversee "the Calahoun Project". Humanatech has developed a device called the Osiris Chip that is capable of bringing someone under the effects of cyberpsychosis "to heel", as it were, and they want Westhaven to test its implementation.
- Westhaven is a big fuckin' dork and so creates an entire new persona for himself called "Ju-Ju", a ruthless crime boss who controls the gang called Entropy. In truth, Westhaven's entire "gang" is a front—he regularly kidnaps people decked out in chrome, forcibly drives them into cyberpsychosis through isolation and experiments, then installs the Osiris Chip into them to enslave them as Ax-Crazy weapons to be pointed in a general direction and unleashed.
- Westhaven regularly sics single-digit enslaved cyberpsychos onto the streets to kill innocent people, but as his numbers increase, he decides for a bigger testrun. He uses his "Entropy" gang to slaughter an entire small street gang called the O-Zoners and attempt the same on the Player Characters. Westhaven plans to prove the worth of Osiris to his superiors, and ensure the Osiris Chip is mass-produced and used to create an army of loyal cyberpsychos.
- Luckily the PCs track Westhaven to his base, and though he unleashes his Entropy slaves onto them, he's overwhelmed, killed, and the Calahoun Project dismantled for good.
Mitigating features?
None, he's described as having a pleasant demeanor and likenened unto a salesman with his fast-talking, sleazy attitude, but it's pure Faux Affably Evil scumminess as he "has no moral scruples" about anything he's doing, nor loyalty to Humanatech.
Heinousness?
Corporations exploiting humans in Cyberpunk is as common as murder in a crime show, but taking advantage of cyberpsychosis and trying to weaponize it on a mass scale is a unique, wholly fucked-up thing for the setting and Westhaven is the primary component in the Calahoun Project and its use of this process.
Final Verdict?
Keep
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Charles Westhaven. Feel like Cyperpunk will have his own page.
Yes to Drake, gonna abstain on Charming.
I tried to run this character by someone else familiar with the franchise to see if they thought the EP was worth it, but they never responded. Oh well. Here it is.
The work: Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance is, as of the time of this writing, the latest point chronologically speaking in the Metal Gear franchise. Taking place four year after the events of Guns of the Patriots, the game follows Raiden as he hunts down members of the PMC "Desperado Enforcement LLC." after they assassinate Mr. N'Mani, Prime Minister of an unnamed country in Africa. As Raiden investigates Desperado and kills its commanding officers all over the world, he learns just how deep the rabbit-hole really goes.
Raiden eventually learns that Desperado has been abducting homeless children around the world and turning them into cyborgs, removing their brains and connecting them directly into a VR training network that "feels as real as anything else," with the intention being to turn them into emotionless killing machines. They target children specifically because their brains are still developing, meaning it makes them easier to mold and manipulate. As a former child soldier who underwent the Sears Program, which was the predecessor to Desperado's program, Raiden takes this all deeply personally, and doubles down on his mission to put an end to Desperado's operations.
The character: The Desperado scientist, officially credited as just "Scientist", is the chief researcher of the Desperado laboratory stationed in Guadalajara, Mexico. He's the primary surgeon who's personally responsible for removing the children's brains and placing them into special casings meant to keep them alive. He also harvests the leftover organs to sell them for extra profit. When told by Sundowner, leader of Desperado, about the specifics of the VR program, his immediate response is to applaud and praise Sundowner for his work. When Sundowner shows disapproval at the scientist's lack of progress, the scientist rebutts by pointing out that brain work is extremely complicated because each brain is different and has unique requirements for their casings. He also makes a sadistic joke, saying it isn't like popping them out with an ice cream scoop. When Senator Armstrong, leader of Desperado's partner PMC World Marshall Inc. tells the scientist to just send their finished product and "destroy any unharvested inventory", (kill the kids whose brains he hasn't removed yet) he objects, not for any moral reasons, but because of the monetary loss, and immediately cheers up once Armstrong promises he'll still get paid.
Once Raiden finds the remaining children gathered in a chamber, the Desperado scientist begins gassing them with chloroform before using George, an escaped child, as a human shield. He makes another sadistic joke here, saying, "Adios, muchachos," as the children suffocate. He then threatens to shoot George in the head if Raiden doesn't surrender. Raiden ultimately cuts down both George and the Scientist at George's behest. (George fortunately survived, as the next scene reveals Raiden put his body into a stasis chamber afterwards.)
Does he stack up?: I'm going to do my hardest to convince you that yes, he does. Child cruelty is nothing new to the Metal Gear series, but the specific methods used by Desperado are noted as being especially cruel and screwed up by the characters in-universe, and as the chief researcher, the Desperado scientist is the one actually getting his hands dirty. Yes, Armstrong and Sundowner, (the latter also being a CM) are the ones calling the shots, and Sundowner has more sins under his belt, but the scientist doesn't have anywhere near the same resources they do, nor would he even want to considering his primary concern seems to just be money. He's also shown to take sadistic enjoyment in the suffering of the kids, something that makes him stand out from everyone else. To top it off, he's the only character in the entire franchise to use a child as a human shield.
Any mitigating concerns? The Desperado scientist has very little screentime, the two videos I shared being the only times he appears. However, I will once again make the argument for quality over quantity. In the few minutes he's onscreen, he's clearly established as a cruel and sadistic coward who only cares about money. Besides, his actions have an influence over the entire game, as Raiden's desire the save the children takes up a significant portion of the story. Plus, it was thanks to him that Raiden's Jack the Ripper persona first reawakened, something that comes into play heavily later on.
Final thoughts? In the very short amount of screentime he has, the Desperado scientist manages to heavily stand out among the many villains in the Metal Gear franchise. He's much like the Gold-Toothed Doctor in Fullmetal Alchemist in that while he's technically following orders, he's still personally responsible for the suffering of countless lives. I'll say he's a keeper.
Edited by AmateurStorytime on Mar 24th 2024 at 8:32:20 AM
Check out my YouTube channel! I make audiobooks and whatever else I feel like!