Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard (MB) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List
Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a MB has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's MBs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any MB link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an MB link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved MBs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their MB equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:36:43 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yep, go ahead and cut!
Just noting that I changed the example tree for The Da Vinci Code and its sequels to use the name of the film series/franchise, Robert Langdon, and re-alphabetized it accordingly, moving it from Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Film A To I to Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Film J To Y and copying the changes into the corresponding pages.
Hey guys, I want to recommend a cut. I just watched Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and I am afraid Dr. Irina Spalko has two major issues. One, while far more affable then the other villains, she is ultimately no smarter than they are, meeting her end trying to exploit something she truly knew absolutely nothing about. However, the big one? Her death. When the alien gives her all the knowledge, she begins begging it to stop ("Enough! Eough!") before being disintegrated.
A nice swimmer
Okay, i only wanna discuss this. Maybe i'm wrong but i need to clear some doubts.
- Yoshikage Kira is a suave, handsome Serial Killer who wants nothing more than to have an "average" existence and live without any distress or worry in his life. Having spent his life specifically seeking third place in any competition or test he took, even planting himself in inconspicuous positions in group photos, just to remain under the radar as neither particularly gifted or flawed, Kira then used his appearance as a normal person to mask his serial killings, murdering women to then take their hands and treat them as "dates" so as to satisfy his hand fetish. Using his Stand, Killer Queen, Kira easily eliminates all evidence of his victims, murders all those who could even possibly stand in his way, and sets numerous traps for Josuke and his friends as they close in on the killer. When seemingly beaten, Kira escapes, kills a man and steals his identity, and gains Bites the Dust, a time-rewinding ability that he uses to murder everyone who could possibly stop him. Even when killed and sent to the afterlife, Kira happily accepts his new "peaceful" existence, only truly losing when the souls of his victims lash out at him and curse him to an eternity of suffering. Though spending much of his time on the run from Josuke, Kira stays one step ahead the whole time, and has such sheer willpower to survive that he unlocks entirely new Stand abilities, a feat nearly unheard of throughout the world.
I love Kira as much as the next guy (with some mild attraction that comes from my bi heart, but we don't talk about that), however, i think he has some flaws.
Up until the final episode he does hold up, he does end up being cornered by the entire group after fighting Josuke, tries to activate Bites The Dust, but gets held in place by Koichi and pummeled by Jotaro, which does leave him rather beaten and absent minded by having been beaten so badly, up until an ambulance breaks his neck. This memory is so "traumatizing" that he believed in the afterworld that he succesfully activated Bites The Dust, up until Raimi reminds him.
While he almost picks up again by trying to turn Raimi's plan to put him down once and for all against her, Raimi outsmarts him and sends her dog to bite his hand to make him turn away in the hallway where hands send you to hell, and they end up doing so with him screaming.
Idk, this whole alongated defeat where he gets outsmarted aa bunch of times and for once fate isn't on his side seems like it cracks his whole suave demeanour that he had before. Great villain still, but i don't feel like this defeat holds him up for MB.
And comparing him to MB's that had Villainous Breakdowns:
- Kars, while having him screaming in his final moments, was only defeated due to luck and would've definetly ruled the world had it not been for Joseph accidently causing a volcano eruption.
- Pucci only screamed for wanting to complete his mission, and in his words, "would be okay with dying as long as his dream was achieved".
Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Jul 26th 2023 at 3:12:29 AM
Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice.
The Moron
Though I was admittedly not around for the original discussion, I do know that Kira has been discussed to death on both threads, so I would be very surprised if this hasn't come up before. I'll obviously leave it to the people who actually know the show but discussions on his merits on either this trope or CM have been some of the most thorough I've seen.
A nice swimmer
Oh no i'm not arguing for CM, i know he's not already. I just want to clear my doubts on his Villainous Breakdown.
Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Jul 26th 2023 at 3:14:28 AM
Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice.
The Moron
Oh yeah, I'm not saying you are arguing for him to be a CM, I just know that on both threads, the discussion has been thorough, so like I said, I would genuinely be surprised if these issues haven't been raised before
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
Kira does have a pretty spectacular Villainous Breakdown in the final episodes, and I'd been wondering if that might be enough to disqualify him myself.
He's definitely one of my favorite villains, but he does lose most of his magnificence by the time of the ending, which doesn't give him any time to recover.
Woagh
Okay, looking at this adressing this indeed being asked before it doesn't seem like he was really "outsmarted", he was only beaten by stuff he had no idea about. Honestly going with a keep based off these.
Question regarding the Disney page, given that it’s not their original IP, should Artemis Fowl be moved to the Live-Action Film page?
Edited by nwotyzal on Jul 26th 2023 at 8:56:43 AM
Kira follows up his breakdown with an utter recovery and shows himself to be very chill with dying— his tenacity and quick recoveries are a major trait. He's not ultimately tricked and he spends his last moments prior to Dead Man's Questions still struggling to survive. I don't see it as mitigating.
The wifi here sucks
Keep Kira based on what others are saying. Also keep Spalko, panicking at the realization of an oncoming Cruel and Unusual Death isn't mitigating
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Lizzid people!
Fine with Kira. Spalko...leaning keep, but just reminded me of how we disqualified Elsa due to Death by Materialism where she unwittingly kills herself by trying to get the Holy Grail.
The film seems to paint Spalko's obsession with knowledge as her Fatal Flaw which just makes her death from retrieving too much as kind of damning. She does try to have it stopped, so I guess that is the one difference that she was aware enough she was making a critical mistake.
Hadn't watched Crystal Skulls in years, so I could be misinterpreting it.
Edited by AustinDR on Jul 28th 2023 at 12:06:43 PM
RIP Toriyama
Fine with Spalko staying; echoing Riley that Kira is fine, his Villainous Breakdown comes about after he gets the absolute shit beaten out of him and he's obviously dazed, and even when he ultimately dies, he recovers and is downright pleased with his new life as a ghost—it's only when he gets Dragged Off to Hell that he is (obviously) panicking, yet still struggling to win to the very last. He's a master at Xanatos Speed Chess through the series and as I've said before, JoJo is a show that takes "exaggerated screaming" to a whole new level for anime, so I'm far, far more lenient on what appears to be "breakdowns" in the series so long as the character keeps showing cool maneuvers and levelheadedness, which Kira absolutely does.
Earnestly, if Kira is ultimately decided to keep, I think this is edging towards Resolved Items territory. Nothing against you Wrong, but Kira is one who has come up a lot—a lot—and had pretty much all of these issues counterargued before. Kira, like almost every character in the story, has moments of slipping up or exaggeratedly shocked reactions, but he maintains his cool way more than loses it and he bounces back in grand ways repeatedly. The fact that, even if it's an amnesiac version of himself, he gets Dead Man's Questions to continue his story and show him as chillin in the afterlife just further cements to me that he's fine to stay.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I wasn't sure about Spalko myself during the initial discussion but it's pretty par the course for villains of the franchise to suffer Be Careful What You Wish For fates and while she gets too excited at the prospect of what the aliens can do I don't think it's too the point of her being doomed to fail from the start as opposed an error that happens to be fatal. It's worth bringing up but especially compared to the other Big Bads whose complete plots were just guaranteed to fail I don't think it bumps her, I think we can grade on a curve a bit. She's not Garth but for a longer standing villain I think we can forgive a bit. Not inclined to really reprimand her for her death itself, she's in intense pain and I think her reaction is reasonable. She doesn't grovel and beg for her life, it's not toeing the line into cowardice, she's reacting like anyone would.
Echoing Rav... both candidates interestingly hit a "Par the course" for their works and I think it's again where "Grade on a curve" becomes important, just like we work with a heinous standard for CM.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 28th 2023 at 4:36:48 AM
A nice swimmer
Yeah no worries, i had some doubts i had to clear, and i was just posting them to have feedback.
Probably should've checked that after the shock of having remembered dying, he pulls off some quick thinking and almost turns Reimi's 17 year long plan on her.
No problem on having him resolved.
Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Jul 28th 2023 at 1:39:21 AM
Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice.
Woagh
Earnestly fine with putting Kira up for the Resolved list, from what i can tell he's been discussed more than enough already.
Cool with keeping Spalko. Tbh this is giving me the idea to look into The LEGO games for candidates, IIRC that Death by Materialism person from The Last Crusade had her death cut and pulled a redemption and Spalko gets a cool boss fight instead of dying to the alien.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Dood... if you can find more LEGO candidates, nothing would make me happier!
Goku Black
Keep kira.
I genuinely don't mind keeping Spalko. Her death is way less due to being an incredibly stupid move like literally every bad guy in the series. And she's the most affable villain in the films.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lizzid people!
Alright, I'm cool with Spalko, just thought I should mention Elsa and her issues to see the comparison.
To be quite blunt, I'm happy to cut Spalko. I've always kinda thought she fails for the exact same reason as Belloq—like they're hyper competent for most of the movie, only for their obsession with a MacGuffin they can't and never could have controlled biting them in the ass hard by the end, which leads to an ignominiously horrifying fate.
I won't raise a fuss if we keep her, but if Belloq fails the trope while having the exact same arc and conclusion as Spalko, I'm dubious as to why she should keep and he shouldn't.
Edited by Scraggle on Jul 28th 2023 at 6:43:17 AM
An Eldritch Troper
Keep Kira, cut Spalko (what an undignified end, it instantly kills her chances of keeping).
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Lizzid people!
Pretty fair point.
Agreed it’s a fair counter… to me it gets to the point of questioning how viable Indy main villains are given they all tend to be screwed by the same thing. Again at the very least Garth is a rock solid keep.
Hey guys, found this unauthorized entry in a fan fiction called Zuma's Fear: