Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Goku Black
What happened with The Elder Scrolls. The Pic got reverted and the image picking link is gone.
I'm quite certain that indy allowed.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, you know what I bet happened? That happened in the swaps because I don't think the new picture was ever in the Sandbox.
EDIT: Sandbox should be fixed now; swap requested.
EDIT 2: Monster: Marvel Series
I'll get the Mutant X stuff there later.
Edited by ACW on Jan 6th 2024 at 11:30:33 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lies and Violence!
Have an unfortunate cut from Skulduggery Pleasant:
- Kingdom of the Wicked: Kitana Kellaway is a teenage psychopath given powerful magic by Argeddion, introduced murdering an innocent sorcerer by telekinetically crushing his mind. Kitana and her friend Doran use their newfound powers to get revenge on those who have slighted them by way of brutally ripping their victims to pieces, doing so to Kitana's ex-boyfriend and Doran's abusive older brother before taking a class at their school hostage with the intent to massacre everyone they can find. Apathetic to the dangers of exposing magic to the world, Kitana eggs on Doran and Sean in committing more horrific acts, such as slaughtering sorcerers sent to protect their school and threatening to wipe out the entire town of Roarhaven. Kitana later betrays Argeddion so he can't take back her immense power, going on to murder his lover in front of him while preparing to trap him in the Cube as an infinite battery for her psychotic fun, and when defeated tries to shift all the blame for her crimes onto Doran. A sadistic bully concerned only with endless, wanton destruction, Kitana is the perfect antithesis toward Argeddion's dream of spreading magic to all.
The work's heinous standard is pretty high; there are tons of gods and supremacists who want to start World War 3 and/or the apocalypse. I brought this issue up before, but she stayed up on the agreement that her being what's essentially a magic school shooter, with jack shit for resources, was a unique enough niche.
However, there was recently a graphic novel tie-in that had a new villain who also tries to kill... not a school, but a large dance being attended by nearly every teen in town, as the final step in his plan to unleash a horde of monsters to devour everyone in said town. Kitana also threatens to destroy a town, but it's a very brief moment that she never follows up on, and though her rampage across Dublin is pretty bad, there's no real plan behind it or established scope that could provide a potential death count to compare against. I'll be getting to this new villain on the proposal thread, but his niche is too similar to Kitana's while going the extra mile to follow through with his grander plans.
While I'm here, just to double-check, no one has any issues with Moon staying?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Unsure about Moon.
So this new villain: Basically does the same as Kitana, and then goes the extra step? And they're comparable in resources?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lies and Violence!
Kitana is a random teenage girl who is given powers akin to that of a god, but she has no idea how to actually use them outside of base instinct, so she's just going around doing whatever comes to mind. With that, she gets up to 9 successful murders + the attempted attack on her school.
The new villain is the leader of a gang of monsters, and has convinced an entire town to look to him as a leader—but he has the massive restriction that neither he nor his monsters can physically leave the town. With that, he's enacted serial killings for two decades—turning the town into the "murder capital of Ireland"—before capping his rampage off with the attempted massacre of the townsfolk, while he goes to personally slaughter all their kids.
I would say they're close in resources (Kitana has more power but no knowledge on how to use it, the new villain has more influence but is limited in how he can wield it), while the new villain does worse.
Not the Eye
Cut Kitana
Keep Moon.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Jogo
Cut Kitana and keep Moon
"Stand proud, Sukuna, you are strong." | He/Him
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cut Kitana. Keep Moon.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Gentle Laborer
Alright, having talked about this with some of my fellow Tropers, it's time we discuss the removal of one of the most famous antagonists in the history of manga/anime: Johan Liebert.
For those of you who don't know, Naoki Urasawa wrote an obscure Light Novel spinoff called Another Monster, which serves as both a novelization and a sequel to Monster—it answers some questions about the lore and Johan's character. For the longest time, we were aware that Johan had some potential mitigating qualities that could have prevented him from reaching CM status, but there was enough ambiguity in the story to treat the more "humanizing" aspects of his personality as part of the mystery.
Here? Another Monster reinforces all of his positive qualities and portrays him in a more sympathetic light. We're told that Johan's right-hand man, Roberto, wanted to eliminate Johan's twin sister Nina because he knew she was Johan's Morality Pet, she's even specifically described as being his "weakness". And, more importantly, we finally receive confirmation that Johan's interactions with his friend Karl Neuman were genuine.
In the very next chapter we're told by Karl's other friend that Johan spared his life from death when he could have very well disposed of him to cut off loose ends.
All in all, it's hard to ignore that Naoki's intention with Another Monster was to explore the "human" side of Johan, and although he's still described as a "monster", so are the people who took advantage of him and made his life even worse, with one woman even theorizing that giving him care and love before he was inducted into Kinderheim 511 could have stopped his transformation into something worse. In the end, this not-so-Complete Monster is a man shaped by his experiences at the hands of other monsters, and he never truly managed to let go of the connections that made him human
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Jan 6th 2024 at 3:34:27 PM
Cut Kitana and Johan
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Yes, cut Kitana and it sounds like Johan's gotta go too
Cut Johan, it was ambiguous as is and at this point keeping him would be ignoring the mountain of evidence that somewhere in his cold chest, there is care for a select few, not to mention the outright sympathy the narrative takes for him.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Cut Johan
At least we still have Goedelitz
Edited by therealjackieboy on Jan 6th 2024 at 10:21:14 AM
"No running in the halls!"
RIP Toriyama
Have to say cut to good ol' Johan with that in mind. If this was penned by anyone but Urasawa I'd brush it off as Depending on the Author, but it's made plainly clear with this LN that Johan is meant to have some sympathy to him. Amazing, classic villain either way, but Cut. Great work, Crow!
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Surprising cut to Johan
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Not the Eye
Cut Johan
Cut Kitana and Johan.
I think Bubba Moon is fine.
Jogo
Cut Johan, so I guess this means Anime & Manga needs a new page image.
"Stand proud, Sukuna, you are strong." | He/Him
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I would like to remind folks we've got a whole page of image links for CMs which we can pull from to replace.
The Ultimate Lifeform
But... wasn't the entire point of the original Monster the fact that Johan... well, was a monster? Guess there's nothing else for it. Disappointed cut to Johan Liebert.
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
Lizzid people!
More a deconstruction I would argue.
As someone who has read the item descriptions, I can confirm, they do not really clarify anything. The relationship between him and the Robe is only described in the vaguest of terms. We legitimately do not know exactly how intelligent the Robe even is, it's smart enough to prioritize self-preservation (being willing to ditch the Monk to find a new body if necessary), but that's the only explicit personality trait it's given.
And yeah, what the Monk did before finding the Robe is never explained either. He's described as a "despicable old man" even before he was banished, but it's never said what he did to earn that reputation.
He's already been cut, which I argued for because the game is just so ridiculously vague about it.
There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.