Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
I'm fine with him honestly, the entry seems to emphasize a series of very cruel and painful murders/attempted murders and it makes note he's far more minor than most of the other keepers. I think the two who went through the series also stated their support for Hotis.
Professor Gigachad
By the way though keep in mind if we are moving Bill to Film we need to move him off the Stephen King page as that is Literature only.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Classy, Refined, Unstable
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Craster rewrites
I'm fine with moving Wharton to film if he is different enough from his book version.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Lizzid people!
I mean the film does not lean towards being in a multiverse like the books do.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Aren't the other film adaptations of King's work who are noted on the film page different enough from their source material? Such as Norton, Bogs, Walter and IT (2017)?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
I'm sure the book is close enough to what he does in the film that it can be ported over unless someone knows off the top of their head there's a particular part to modify.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Alright fairs, apologies for dragging this one out.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
I would like to do a removal proposal for Karin Saeki/the Akelon from Chouseishin Gransazer. I have multiple reasons why I do not believe she qualifies.
Firstly, Karin's actions are not all that heinous by the standards of Gransazer. Yes, she does try to kill several people, and her end goal was the destruction of humanity, but that's the goal of most of the villains in the show. The Impactors plotted to do it by exploding the sun, the Bisil aliens plotted to do it by transporting humanity to another dimension, the Gorfin Alien attempted to do it by brainwashing dolphins into emitting painful hypersonic waves. We never even get to see if or how Karin planned to wipe out humankind, as she spends the first arc trying to manipulate the Gransazers into killing each other and is killed before she can move on to anything else.
Other actions she takes the first arc don't really help her stand out either. Yes, she tries to kill the Gransazers and Professor Horiguchi, but they're the heroes who are opposing her, so trying to kill them is standard for the kind of work it is. Her injuring Tenma's coworker Maki isn't that heinous either. It is true that this is the act shocks the Wind Tribe and gets them to doubt her, but it's not like Karin went out of her way to attack Maki, it just so happened that she was with Tenma at the time she tried to get a sneak attack him. Other villains in the show have outright tried to attack innocent civilians, so Karin not caring that a civilian was injured doesn't really put her above them. The reason this act shocks the Wind Tribe is because up until that point they had been convinced by her that they were the good guys, and this act is the first sign they get that what she's telling them is not as it seems. In short, it's an evil act, but not an especially evil act by the setting's standards.
But I think the biggest point against her being a Complete Monster is the fact that her feelings for Akira, by all indication, are made out to be genuine. She gets flustered when he sees her true form for the first time, shows care for him while he's injured and when he does choose to side with the Gransazers, she feels personally betrayed. Her trying to spare him from the destruction of the rest of humanity isn't "Cruel Mercy", she genuinely wanted to keep him alive so she could stay with him, and even makes multiple appeals to try to convince him to join her.
Also, this is more speculation and doesn't have much to do with the other two points, but one more thing to consider is the revelation later on that the aliens in the series are targeting Earth because they've been deceived into thinking humanity to be a dangerous creature called Bosquito. While Karin herself never has her motives expounded upon, such a twist would imply that Karin may not have necessarily had inherently malicious intentions behind her actions. Even putting this aside though, Karin has too many mitigating factors for my taste for her to be a proper CM.
Just imagine something here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll take care of Wild Bill tomorrow.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
By the way, the wiki is experiencing some issues, so editing is not possible right now.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Lots of things don't seem to be working but the mods have alerted the devs so it's just a waiting game.
As for Karin, I'm leaning cut there with Reddish's points. Original EP here if you want to read it.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, and Rat King seems like a cut.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Karin's inclusion confused me since it does seem indicated on the character pages she cares for Akira. Fine with a cut there.
@ Wet, Nothing to apologize for mate, you were being thorough, that's all 
Edited by 43110 on Dec 13th 2022 at 5:00:11 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
@43 Cheers bud.
Before we start relooking at Law & Order and JAG (after Reddish's points get more feedback), is it alright if I quickly list and summarise my thoughts about a 7 keeper franchise?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Go for it.
Showtime!
Cur Karin, that sounds like a genuine Even Evil Has Loved Ones to me
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Cut the Rat King and Karin.
Move Wild Bill to the film page.
craster rewrites
Surprising cut to Rat King, always thought he was a solid keep
also cut Karin
Edited by Snowy66 on Dec 13th 2022 at 2:19:11 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Alright so the Spyro the Dragon series has 7 keepers and since it's a mostly kid friendly affair I wouldn't be surprised if anyone would question that amount so I'll go through with it for you lot.
- The Sorceress: Intended on murdering 150 baby dragons for immortality and creates a monster to wipe out the dragon race.
- The Sorcerer: Drags people from the normal world into the Shadow realm to be drained of their power and left to die. Also responsible for Red's actions of trying to poison the land with Dark Gems by brainwashing him.
- Gaul: Mass infanticide and slavery and is the one to use Malefor's magic to turn Cynder into a mass murdering monster, keeping her aware.
- Malefor: Omnicidal Maniac, warmongering, inflicted a Fate Worse than Death on the apes for their shallow loyalty.
- The Dark Master: Had his soldiers raze the lands and steals dragons souls to boost his own power by killing them.
- The Darkness: Universal threat and has a few personal crimes attached.
- Comic!Malefor: Corrupts Skylanders to unleash destruction on the skylands and forces the heroes to watch as he goes on a destructive rampage in inhabited spots, stealing other's powers.
Thankfully I'd say no ones damned for a cut? Massively thanks to them being in various continuities.
The Sorceress and Sorcerer are in the classic one and both have unique enough M Os to stand out from each other. Some of the other villains may have nasty deeds on paper but the execution isn't heinous enough.
Malefor and Gaul are from the The Legend of Spyro and I think they're good too? Malefor's the easiest keeper from the franchise tbh (waste of Mark Hamill aside) but is also of a power and resource level way above Gaul, being a borderline Physical God.
The Dark Master is in his own continuiity so isn't affected by anyone else and has hundreds of deaths under his belt so for a script of a kids film? Easy pass.
The Darkness and Comic!Malefor are from Skylanders but I also think alternate continuities? Even if they weren't, one's a God of Darkness and the other's just a powerful dragon so I'd say decent strength difference there.
Thoughts?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Not the Eye
Cur Karen.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
looks like they are all alright.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, and FWIW, Criminal Minds doesn't need discussion; we had that when the series ended (though there's the Paramount Plus revival). Law and Order's also PROBABLY all fine. Bellisarioverse maybe some need to be cut.
Karin seems like a cut.
Edited by ACW on Dec 13th 2022 at 5:57:19 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cut Rat King and Karin.
I was wondering if I could bring up something that I have been wondering about for a while.
Do we really need pages like DC Animation (and other DC medias) or Marvel Literature (and other Marvel medias)? I remember in the old threads discussed making things like a page DC Films everyone was against it but when I brought up why do the Animation, Literature, or Video Games pages I was told that it was not a productive question but with the fresh start I figured it would be a good time to ask again. Why group those DC and Marvel medias for together even when they don't share continuity, like Arrowverse and Marvel Cinematic Universe do which is why I am specifically not asking about those pages just the ones that's only tying features are their form of media and being based on Marvel and DC?
If everyone says that they are fine. I will let it go but I figured this would be a good time discuss a cleanup question I have had for a while.
Edited by Bullman on Dec 13th 2022 at 5:11:09 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I say it's fine, especially because at least some works DO share a continuity. Like, DCAU could have its own page and the others merged with animation, but with Marvel lit, all the 90s novels EXPLICITLY share a continuity. Not only is that Word of God (I asked the editor of those novels on Twitter), but they have references to each other.
I say just keep it as is myself.
Edited by ACW on Dec 13th 2022 at 6:11:47 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Not the Eye
Second that.
Good rewrites. Guess bill goes to the film.
While we disscus cuts I did brought up hotis from Critical Role as another possible cut few days ago but it did fall by the wayside.