The Web Original namespace -- is it necessary?

Ok, I was confused when new crowner options were being proposed when Synchronicity asked for a comprehensive post on why we are crownering the Web Original namespace for deprecation.

Macron's notes

I have to re-do what Synch asked based on the fact we're doing a single-prop.

Already done on Sandbox.Web Original Wick Sorting.

• Pro-deprecation: namespace attracts misplaced work pages, low-quality pages, and works of questionable tropability
• Anti-deprecation: a lot of works that do qualify would have nowhere else to go

I'd like to apologize for all this.

If I may add, my "Pro-deprecation" point is that almost all of it already fits into other more appropriate namespaces, and whatever's remaining can be called something else.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

What would that "something else" be that's more fitting than Web Original?

I just favor WebFiction/ so far, as long as it's not matches name with assorted Web Original page which I'd prefer to become a work-less page also for the above reasons. Plus many of the works remaining sounds like they could be cut.

I don't really mind Multimedia/, or others or just leaving them at WebOriginal/, but that's just my second part of the opinion.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Okay, that's good, but that's more talk for the second crowner.

Speaking of, shall we go ahead?

I'd like to apologize for all this.

And my point is that that can already be done — and should already be being done (?tenses?) — without any change to Web Original/.

Many =/= all. Like I said: "As long as there is even one tropable work that would be shoehorning to put into another category, the namespace will be needed."

As for Web Fiction/, the issues with that have been discussed and are unresolved. I can't get behind removing a namespace on the condition that the pages in it might be able to be moved to another (non-existent at this point) namespace with an undefined scope that might just end up with the same problems you're trying to fix in the first place. Even if you take the broadest possible interpretation of "fiction" (which, if you don't, will exclude some valid Web Original/ pages), then to quote myself again:

Edited by Twiddler on Aug 22nd 2022 at 7:26:13 AM

Actually, my original pitch was meant for mainly text-based works. See Sandbox.Web Fiction Namespace.

I'd like to apologize for all this.

Right, that's why I said "if"^note actually it looks like I accidentally left out the word in my previous post — let me edit that in — there's been some confusion over the proposed scope. But that gets back into my point about not all Web Original/ pages being able to fit into other, pre-existing namespaces.

To sum up: I'm against going forward with a crowner without an actual plan.

Imagine this crowner: "Deprecate the Web Original/ namespace?"

And replace with what? Where are the pages going to go?

"More specific namespaces like Web Video/, Literature/, etc."

1. We can already do that. That's cleanup that falls under our current rules.
2. What about Web Original/ pages that don't have a more specific namespace to go to?

"Make a new namespace(s) for those."

1. What namespace(s)?
2. If a namespace is broad enough to catch all the outliers, how is it meaningfully distinct from Web Original/?
3. Conversely, if it's not broad enough, we end up back at "What about Web Original/ pages that don't have a more specific namespace to go to?"

I'm only in favor of fully deprecating WO if it is legitimately fully deprecated, not just de facto succeeded by another namespace.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Actually, we can't. We can do that with a significant portion of them, but the scope of some other namespaces is still unclear. You mentioned Literature/, but there's currently no rule about what goes there and what goes on WebOriginal/. So, we need a crowner to decide this.

Examples would aid your case. There's that page you made, yes. What else?

I'd like to apologize for all this.

17777 and possibly all OTCs.

If the concern about social media thingies and Original Character Tournament is that they don't belong in Web Original/ and might not be tropeworthy at all, taking down Web Original/ seems like putting the cart before the horse. Why not answer those questions first?

(Also my way of saying: not convinced this is ready for a crowner.)

Edited by Synchronicity on Aug 23rd 2022 at 10:23:21 AM

Okay, I will put forth an argument for one of these: memes aren't tropable. They don't have an author, and instead rely entirely on user-made content in order to push forward a narrative, so anyone can make anything out of them. So I think Trollge, Creamsicle, Inglip, LOLCats and Virgin Vs Chad should be cut.

I'd like to apologize for all this.

Wait, why would OCTs not be tropable? They pretty much all have narratives: the question is whether they should be considered roleplays or not, when there's no direct interaction between participants.

Edited by Orbiting on Aug 23rd 2022 at 11:42:18 AM

I have to check them out before I comment. Some are saying, yes, move; others are saying no, they're a different thing. If they are roleplays... we might have to move discussion to the other thread.

But yes, they're definitely tropable. I'll also have to check if the pages are good, I found a few low-quality ones before.

I'd like to apologize for all this.

Let's see...

• Creamsicle: "hundreds of fanfics" is not a Work, they are all assorted fanworks of Beekkake's Tumblr post and can't have a united page.
• Trollge: could be retooled into community-based Creepypasta, but the current page is pretty vague of how it's made. Also it's currently unindexed.
• Inglip: Appears to be a Creepypasta on reddit. We could turn that thread into a Work, but as-is it appears to be just assorted jokes all over the internet and thus not tropable.
• LOLCats: Appears to be a collection of assorted jokes and not anything community-based. It says it "went beyond being an Image Macro" but it doesn't provide an argument.
• Virgin Vs Chad: mentions there's a Reddit thread that has a continuity of some kind. There's a chance that can count as Work, but the page as-is describes assorted fan-made comics and thus isn't a Work.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Old discussion about troping things like Creamsicle and Virgin and Chad, fwiw.

Hm. Looks like the discussion was in favor of cutting them unless it can be proven these are "collaborative works", but the discussion died after one cut.

We could revive that thread and settle if "exceptional Web Original" pages should be cut or kept, while continuing moving pages at Web Original Wick Sorting, then resume the namespace talk after either is done.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Or we could just cut all the weird meme pages. They're relics of the TV Tropes of the past.

This leaves 17776 as the only "weird" work left, and it can be put into Literature/ for lack of a better option.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

I mean, is that discussion settled? I'm in favor of cutting "weird meme pages", but I don't feel safe about it without an explicit Call or something from Admin/ to cite.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Word of Mod could work, Septimus did that on a couple of wikis at the Wiki/ cleanup thread.

I'd like to apologize for all this.

Agreed: meme collections without a coherent narrative are not tropable.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

There's four other meme pages, actually:

• Keit-Ai is definitely tropable, since it's a copypasta, which we have troped before. That being said, both Navy Seal Copypasta and Atheist Professor Copypasta are in the JustForFun/ namespace.
• Tendies Stories seem to be a genre and not a specific work, so I'd cut it.
• Momo isn't really tropable as a meme since it's just about a funny/creepy pic, but it later resulted in a creepypasta which is probably tropable. Tropes on the sculpture should go on Art/.
• Deranged Sorority Girl is a real e-mail that went viral, which might count as RL troping.

Edited by FernandoLemon on Aug 24th 2022 at 10:51:54 AM

I'd like to apologize for all this.

Let's just move the works that obviously can be moved before digging into the iffy ones.