Ambiguous Name: Villainous Aromantic Asexual

I don't know what has been proposed other than a rename due to the massive derail, but is this even a real trope? Even some of the examples marked as correct in the wick check don't really appear to focus much on their lack of interest in sex or romance as being directly related to why they're portrayed as freakish/evil, but I could have misread things because I have a nasty headache right now.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 5th 2022 at 8:50:30 AM

Yes, this is a real trope. See the discussion I linked in my first post in this thread...when I was pitching to aro and ace writers for other tropes about aro and ace people, this was the first one they thought of.

That discussion didn't really have much to say about the concept as an intentional inclusion used to create associations in people's heads during a narrative.

Would like to say that i agree its a real trope, but possibly a trope in aggrate? The connection here is "villain does not show 'normal' interest in romance or sex,", this is a trait commonly applied to "inhuman" or "cold" -type villains because romance is viewed as a warm and humanizing emotion. It's a very common correlation, especially by people who aren't aware of asexuality as a real thing. But it's not always a direct intentional connection by the author to say "Bob the overlord is evil and therefore asexual"

Edited by Tremmor19 on Apr 5th 2022 at 2:15:52 PM

Yeah, I've always thought that this trope was for villains who are so selfish/arrogant that they are incapable of feeling any semblance of affection for others. Love (whether romantic or platonic) is a vital part of any meaningful relationship, and the fact that the villain is incapable of feeling them (or refuses to acknowledge them) is a sign that there's something inhuman and wrong with them. Sexual desire is also often seen by society as a "natural" — if not "essential" — part of human experience and the villain's lack of such desire adds to their "wrongness". It's similar to Evil Cannot Comprehend Good (maybe a subtrope?).

Let's not get too caught up with the labels. I don't think this is meant to depict "stereotype" of the aro-ace spectrum the way Depraved Homosexual is; and it's less that "the character is evil because of their orientation", but "the character is evil, therefore they don't have normal positive emotions such as love and sexual desire".

Edited by Adept on Apr 6th 2022 at 1:30:07 AM

If it's a Trope in Aggregate, then that helps clarify things. Maybe we should add it to the Trope in Aggregate index.

This being a TIA makes sense, actually. I'm all for adding it to the index.

I don't see why this has to be a trope in aggregate. Not all villains are "aromantic" (since we do have Unholy Matrimony and Villainous Crush) and many are definitely not "asexual" (due to Interplay of Sex and Violence, psychopathic villains are often portrayed as promiscuous and/or perverted as well).

Edited by Adept on Apr 6th 2022 at 9:30:17 PM

I would rather angle towards a Celibate Villain / Depraved Homosexual-analogous type of trope without trying for specific labels or TIA.

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 6th 2022 at 9:21:27 AM

I think we need to be clear that "doesn't have a Love Interest and doesn't have sex" isn't really enough to call a character aromanitc or asexual.

x7 I agree, I see this trope as more of a way of saying "this villain is so self-centered and selfish that he feels no love and has disgust over romance", not "this villain was born without feeling the desire for romantic relationships". Considering how this trope has been used in several old stories, I'd assume most writers wouldn't even know that aromanticism is a thing. Even cases where the villain was born without knowing how to feel love, like with Voldemort, are more akin to Evil Cannot Comprehend Good than the author making a stereotype about assexual people.

Edited by good-morning on Apr 6th 2022 at 9:45:16 AM

I think we should move away from specific identities like "aromantic" and "asexual." First off, consider that "asexual" is often used as shorthand for "has no interest in any relationships" because the split-attraction model is not common knowledge outside of queer discourse, or it's straight-up conflated with celibacy, and as a result there's going to be arguments about whether we use the connotative definition of "asexual" or the literal LGBT one.

I do not think there's a trend of villains explicitly identified as aromantic and asexual. It's not often these identities are used much in media at all, especially not individually as opposed to lumped together. However, there does seem to be a trend where villains are unable to feel love or are juxtaposed against a hero who thrives off The Power of Love.

I think the Loveless Villain angle, but probably with a better name, is broader and less clunky. It's the intersection of Evil Cannot Comprehend Good and What Is This Thing You Call "Love"?.... maybe we could call it Evil Cannot Comprehend Romance? I think the broader idea of "love" is covered by Evil Cannot Comprehend Good but I'm okay with a romance-specific subtrope if we lack that.

In broadening it outside of specifically aromantic asexuals, we could also perhaps identify when villains are only interested in sex, but not romance. It may be a relation to Good People Have Good Sex and Sex Is Evil. I don't think the reverse (interested in romance but not sex) is as associated with evil due to the aforementioned existence of the Sex Is Evil trope.

Finally, we should make sure this isn't applied to any villain who lacks a romantic interest. They should be explicitly against the idea of having a romantic interest, or any other form of love.

Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 6th 2022 at 7:01:01 AM

Came in here to basically say all of that.

Wonderful well-written proposal Mew!

I agree with avoiding terms related to sexual and/or romantic orientation, but maybe Romance Averse Villain would be better than Evil Cannot Comprehend Romance, because the latter sounds a bit too dialogue-like.

Agree with previously mentioned points. For possible names, Villains Cant Love or Evil Can't Love?

Totally agree with the suggestion, maybe Romanceless Villain? Or would that not convey the character's aversion for romance?

I think those two have the same problem as Loveless Villain, in that they don't clearly indicate that it's referring to romantic love and not platonic love.

In contrast, Even Evil Has Loved Ones can refer to either kind of love, so the use of "love" makes sense.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 6th 2022 at 7:51:36 AM

I don't think Evil Cannot Comprehend Romance sounds like a line of dialogue. Is every trope that's a complete sentence considered "dialogue" now?

Romance Averse Villain could be fine, though.

No worries! I hope I didn't sound too snarky, your mod status made me wary that we were overexpanding that rule.

Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 6th 2022 at 9:48:26 AM

Oh, I was just giving my opinion on what I personally think of the name, so sorry if I sounded like I was shooting down the proposal. (There was a fairly recent Wiki Talk discussion regarding tropes whose names are full sentences, and I'd rather not bring that discussion here.) If the thread votes to rename the trope, Evil Cannot Comprehend Romance will be available as an option.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 6th 2022 at 8:47:42 AM

On the Romantic vs. Platonic Love, aren't most Loveless Villain-s lacking in all of The Four Loves anyway?

Edit: And on the No Romantic Love angle, we have Ice Queen which are usually also villains? I think?

Edited by Malady on Apr 6th 2022 at 8:24:59 AM

Right. Loveless Villains are usually incapable of building friendships or have any familial loyalty as well (not just romantic love) because they only see other people as tools at their disposal.

Oh, I guess I overlooked the fact that the description does mention that these characters often have an aversion to platonic relationships as well, but the word "often" seems to imply that examples don't require it, while an aversion to romantic relationships is required (but correct me if I'm wrong on that).

Maybe Loveless Villain would work as a name.

Just woke up, Mew's proposal wins the thread

As for a name, Loveless Villain seems the simplest, though maybe Villains Dont Get Love?