Misused: Not So Different

I agree.

Here here.

Sandbox.Not So Different is up. Can someone verify that I've summarized the thread consensus correctly?

I'm assuming the options that simply add a word to the current name would be custom titled to have quotation marks around the "Not So Different" part of the name, similarly to what was done with "Not Making This Up" Disclaimer.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 16th 2021 at 3:29:25 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

You know, this is all good, but this does leave me with a significant question. What are we going to do about the situations where characters clearly have some significant similarities that go unmentioned in universe?

Like Film/Aliens where the Alien Queen and Ripley are clearly very similar in that they're both Mama Bears fighting for their respective children (biological or adopted). This incredibly similarity is never mentioned in-universe, but is clearly intentional. Should we list situations like that under a different trope, or just create a new one altogether for them?

The thoughts upthread were that those types of situations fit under Foil.

We have consensus on the crowner.

Kirby is awesome.

We also need to update the description to allow for our new variants.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Someone already told me that Foil is the situation that a lot of people mistake with Not So Different. But something's bothering me about that. The page for Foil lists several different examples that are extremely focused on differences instead of similarities. Every example I've seen lists one or two similarities at most which are mostly surface similarities, and then lists nothing but differences. It seems like Foil and its subtropes consist entirely of antithetical concepts.

This trope seemed to be the inverse of that, things that appear completely antithetical but are actually similar. I understand that this trope is supposed to be the in-universe realization, but it was also the only trope that covered those situations in general.

Edited by TheGoddessIsDead on May 4th 2021 at 11:15:14 AM

Foil is a preexisting literary analysis term. Just being "antithetical" isn't enough to be a foil, you have to highlight certain traits. Dobby and Draco from Harry Potter are completely different, but that doesn't make them foils. Kretcher and Dobby, however, are foils, because both were house elves in service to a Wizard house and later act as Harry's servants. Kretcher is unsymathetic and hates Harry for his part in destroying the Dark Lord. Dobby is intended to be sympathetic and works to protect Harry because of what he did to the Dark Lord. Kretcher looks to subvert his orders and trick Harry into harm. Dobby punishes himself for even considering the idea of not obeying an order immediately and works to protect Harry against his master's wishes. They are foils, and if Harry or Hermione ever compared the two in the books, they'd be an example of "Not So Different" Remark.

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The NSDR typically highlights the shared element, but Captain Smooth and Sergeant Rough, Evil Twin, Fat and Skinny, Fur Against Fang highlight differences. They still require a similarity, such as military, appearance/genetics, teamwork, or supernatural powers, and that's why for our purposes a Foil pair must interact on-screen. Dueling Messiahs and Science Foils are other foil tropes where the similarity is highlighted instead of their differences.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Yeah, foils have to be similar in at least some aspects to better highlight the things that make them different. The issue with some of these NSD examples is that people focused so much on what made the characters different that it seemed like the characters were indeed foils- or at least the example was written to convey that.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Okay. I get it now. Most examples of NSD were written in a way that the characters were more like Foils. However, with how you said it, that the similarities highlight differences, what about the inverse when differences highlight similarities?

The way I see it, and from a lot of entries I'd seen in other folders, Foils are characters whose similarities are made more apparent first, and then the differences are revealed later and are more impactful for it. Not So Different Characters are characters whose differences are made more apparent at first to make the fact that they're actually alike more impactful.

Like the Hargreeves Siblings of The Umbrella Academy series. Their differences are seen first, and then the dancing scene occurs to highlight how similar they are. The setup of them being different makes the pay off of them being alike more impactful.

Is that just an inverse of the typical Foil setup? Or is that a trope of its own? Or maybe there's another Trope of Surprising Similarity that I'm not aware of.

Foils don't have to have their differences expressed later, they just need to be different in ways that bring attention to those differences. It's not as specific as you're making it out to be.

And "inverse foils", for when it's the similarities that stick out, might be worth a different trope if it can stay away from subjective bias. Which I doubt it can, because just look at the mess going on with Expy and similar tropes.

As we're defining it here, Not So Different (or, well, "Not So Different" Remark) is for when characters show surprising similarities that is remarked upon in-universe.

Anyway, this is a derail. I'd suggest taking Foil to Trope Talk if you want to continue discussing it.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 6th 2021 at 11:56:59 AM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Unrelated to the previous discussion (currently sick again and too tired to make more substantial posts), but I submitted a custom title request to display the new name with quotation marks around the "Not So Different" part for the sake of clarity, similarly to what "Not Making This Up" Disclaimer does for the "Not Making This Up" part. I would have done this sooner, but I didn't see that the page was moved until a bit ago (I wasn't keeping track of this thread at the time).

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 7th 2021 at 4:27:18 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

In addition to wick cleaning, we still need a description rewrite?

Yeah. There's Sandbox.Not So Different to work in.

I think if we are changing Not So Different, we should change Not So Similar as well. Both can be misused in similar ways.

We need a separate thread and wick check for that, though.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Bump. I might take a crack at the description later. As usual I'd be best starting from scratch so any descriptions I make will be under the current.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

It's been twelve days since the last post in this thread.

Has anything new come up?

I mean, after the rename, I put the old name in the "renamed tropes" folder of the Trope Epitaph page.

I'll be over on DeviantArt if you need me.