On Fanfic Classifications

So this keeps coming up on ATT and it's time to have a proper thread about it:

How do we classify Fanfics here? Is it solely by copyright laws? Or is it just whatever people consider to be Fanfiction? This issue has proven to be pretty controversial, so let's figure it all out, shall we?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

The first obvious way to determine whether a work is a fan work is how it was distributed.

• Anything on FanFiction.Net can reasonably be considered a fan work. (It has a specific sister site, FictionPress, for original fiction.)
• An "I Do Not Own" disclaimer almost certainly indicates a fan work.
• A commercial release, where the source material is copyrighted, usually indicates a licensed work.
• It's entirely possible for a fan work to become licensed later on, at which point it would no longer be considered a fan work.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Here's my usual definition, which defines what people usually mean when they use the term "fanfiction".

I'm not saying only things that fit these criteria can be fanfics. I'm saying that when people talk about "a fanfic," the story they mean usually fits all these criteria. And when something technically counts as a fanfic but people don't use the term "fan fiction" to describe it, it usually fails to fit one of the criteria below.

DEFINITION: "A story that's not published by the official publisher.

And that is written by a fan.

And that's based on one specific source that is the canon.

And that's written in a way that assumes that the reader is familiar with the source material. (Like how Star Wars fanfiction usually doesn't bother explaining who Han Solo is or how he looks.)

And where there is one clear original canon work in the first place, which is the case with, say, the Harry Potter books but not with Robin Hood."

For instance, Shakespeare's Cymbeline is based on a Boccaccio story. But that play wasn't written for people who already were familiar with that story. So while the play technically is fanfic, IMO, most people won't count it as fanfic since it's presented just like an original story.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro on Nov 27th 2020 at 5:43:14 PM

I dug deep for past threads/posts on the subject, but I think early (pre-2011) threads where ~Fast Eddie made statements about the namespaces they wanted got lost as I can't actually find where the namespace was announced.

• to distinguish Fan Fic (or Fan Works, if you will) from other media, with the distinction that a fan work exists in relationship with an existing work that was not written by the same person, and is not officially licensed. (2011)
• Fanfiction was made a separate category because people got offended by it being under Literature. Not because it isn't literature, but because it has a disproportionately large amount of hatred and bias. As recently as a year ago, I have seen people calling for all fanfiction works pages and examples to be purged from the site because of this hatred. Thus, the separation of fanfiction is a political/PR move: people who like to catalogue fanfiction can, and people who hate it with a fiery passion can pretend it doesn't exist. It has nothing to do with an "official TV Tropes definition" of literature and everything to do with appeasement. (2011)
• Well, our definition of fan fiction is precise: it's the use of characters or settings from copyrighted works without having the permission to do so. The commercial publication of such work would thus be considered a violation of copyright. (2019)

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I've never agreed with the idea that a work needs to be based on a copyrighted story for it to be fanfiction. But I think—I don't know for sure, but I think—that the reasoning behind that is that fanfiction is based on copyrightable ideas. Ideas with one clear creator.

Stories about Achilles, or about Thor, or about Hercules, are usually not considered fanfiction, because they don't have a clear source. There's no existing story that's the original story about Achilles. (Or Thor, or Hercules.) There's nothing about them that's the original work. Not like with Harry Potter, Batman or Artemis Fowl.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro on Nov 27th 2020 at 6:00:56 PM

Mythology is public domain. A work written about Hercules cannot be fan fiction by definition, since there is no license required to use that character. Again, this is not ambiguous in any way. Fan fiction is any work that:

• Incorporates copyrighted characters or settings, or any other part of a work that would fall under copyright, excluding Fair Use
• Without the permission of the license holder or copyright owner, or in such a way that it cannot be commercially sold without violating said license or copyright

That latter clause covers cases where authors have given explicit permission to create derivatives of their work as long as money isn't made off of them.

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Fan fiction is a type of derivative work. A derivative work is any work based on, inspired by, adapting, modifying, translating, or otherwise altering or reproducing another work in whole or in part, excluding Fair Use.

(Note that referencing is not the same and is excluded unless it also includes one or more of these other elements. I don't have to pay royalties to Tolkien's estate if a character in my work talks about Lord of the Rings.)

Adaptations are licensed derivative works, made with permission and/or able to be commercially sold without violating copyright law. By definition, any treatment of a public domain work is an adaptation, since there is no copyright to violate.

• A documentary about Lord of the Rings is not a derivative work and is covered under Fair Use.
• A web review of Lord of the Rings displaying a cover image and talking about the story is not a derivative work and is covered under Fair Use.
• A novel about the Sackville-Bagginses of the Shire is a derivative work. If you didn't ask the Tolkien estate before writing it, you might find a lawyer sending you a nasty letter. If you did, then it's a licensed adaptation.
• A fan-made painting of Frodo Baggins is a derivative work and is a fan work.
• A folk song setting the "Lay of Luthien" to lute music is a derivative work and a fan work if not done with permission.
• Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films are derivative works that are also licensed adaptations.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 27th 2020 at 12:32:38 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

To be clear, the ATT thread that spawned this was based on a Robin Hood story written by a wattpad writer. On the TLP I classified it under literature, a decision contested by ~djonn (who wants to stay involved in the discussion). We couldn't agree on what the proper classification was and took it to ATT, who also couldn't agree.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Was it published as a print book or only available online? It's not fan fiction by strict definition unless it is specifically derived from a licensed work based on the Robin Hood mythos, like Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 27th 2020 at 12:34:37 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Only available online.

However, it's a Robin Hood story, and Robin Hood is Public Domain, so much like with Mythology it doesn't include copyrighted characters.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

That one is honestly really clear-cut. Robin Hood is in public domain.

Don't we have Web Novel as a namespace? Could have sworn we did. Just because it's on Wattpad doesn't mean anything, unless that site specifically rejects original fiction.

And yes, it is absolutely not fan fiction by any definition, unless as I edited above it specifically adapts someone else's work about Robin Hood. For example, if I write a story about Blinken from Men in Tights, that's fan fiction.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 27th 2020 at 12:37:19 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I'd agree, but Not everyone did/does.

Maybe? These things get confusing because half of the time people can't decide if they go in Literature or Web Original. And the fact that this one is a derivative work is adding onto the debate.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Web Original is a deprecated namespace.

Edit: Whoops, should have looked. Most stuff in Web Novel goes in the Literature namespace, so there's the precedent.

Edit 2: The argument from that ATT seems to be about whether the author self-identifies as writing fan fiction. That is a useless metric and we cannot allow it.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 27th 2020 at 12:40:59 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

By "Web Original" I was referring to page folders, not the namespace, my bad.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Sure, it would go in the Web Original media category on trope articles. That's correct.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

My personal preference has always been that we should scrap the Fan Fic namespace and perhaps even the media category and send it examples into Literature/. Partly because of the common confusion about what goes where but mainly because it's a distinction at odds with the rest of the namespace/media category system and because its existence appears to be to a large degree a consequence of anti-fanfic bias.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Nov 28th 2020 at 10:48:03 AM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I've stated before why I don't want fanfics merged into Literature/. It would make the Literature section on trope pages far too confusing.

As for the "public domain source work" question... we have to come up with some sort of answer, because the last bits of Sherlock Holmes will hit PD a few years from now. The AO3 category for literary Holmes has 441 works updated in 2020, most of which would be considered original fiction had they been created three years from now despite still being based on an active fandom.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

That's not how copyright works. Sherlock Holmes (and Watson) entered public domain for all countries years ago. In fact, except for America, the characters/works have been public domain since 2000. Now, specific stories and characterizations that first appeared in works still under copyright (stupid mouse) are not public domain in America, but everything before that is. Despite cases like Mr. Holmes going to court to get a "Covenant Not to Sue".

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My favorite part of this: link — "It's not unusual for an author to use the same character in successive works, yet with differences resulting, in the simplest case, just from aging. In Shakespeare's two Henry IV plays, the Henry who later becomes Henry V is the Prince of Wales, hence Crown Prince of England; in Henry V he is the King of England. Were Henry IV in the public domain and Henry V under copyright, Henry Prince of Wales could be copied without Shakespeare's permission but not Henry V."

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To summarize, many of those works you linked are already fiction based on public domain, and technically all of them should be.

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Confusing how? I think I asked you for a clarification last time and you bailed, but you're trying to claim that "the medium is the written word" is confusing again. You need to explain that.

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To separately address "What if the work won't be in public domain for another couple of years?" Then anything created before the expiration of copyright without a license agreement from the IP holders can be considered a violation of copyright. For example, a fanfic of "The Adventure of Shoscombe Old Place" would go into the fanfic namespace unless the author waits until January 2023 to publish it. Or they could publish it in London where the copyright has already expired.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Nov 28th 2020 at 3:15:07 PM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Another interesting Shakespearean example is how the wedding between Theseus and Hippolyta is featured both in A Midsummer Night's Dream and The Two Noble Kinsmen, but the Theseus and Hippolyta in one play are different versions from the ones in the other play. The plays exist in completelt different continuities.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro on Nov 28th 2020 at 9:04:30 PM

Every time this topic gets brought up it gets derailed by inane minutiae. I'm not surprised it happened again.

Copyright status, method of publication, and authorial intent (if known) are all factors that should be considered in judging whether a work goes in the literature or fanfic namespace/folder. There is no way to set a clear line here; there are inevitably going to be edge cases.

[1] One might note that fan works other than literature are treated pretty much the same as original works, except that they're (sometimes, inconsistently) filed into a "fan works" folder on trope pages.

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.

Yeah, I've always been a little thrown off by the double standard when it comes to non-literature-based fanworks and normal fanfiction. I never brought it up because I didn't want to start a fight over it, but I always did find it a bit strange and contradictory.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Bumping because this got linked on ATT.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Not to make things even more complicated for everyone's brains, but how would one classify Literature.Sixteen Thirty Two?

• First published as a standalone novel
• Members of the Publisher's sign-in only BB started trading fic, with the knowledge and encouragement of the author
• Some of this fic was really good. To the extent that the author and publisher cut a deal with the authors of some cherry picked stories, and issued a hardcover novel-length anthology.
• Characters and events from the published fic are considered canon. There's a universe bible to keep it all straight. Many characters that got started in a short story have been expanded upon in subsequent novels.
• The fic keeps coming. 9 print anthologies, cherry picked from 80+ E-zine issues, most at least novella length.
• Many of the follow-on novels (around 30 at this time) are written or co-written by people who got started in the fic world.

Looked at one way, this entire series, barring the first novel, is fanfic. But its traditionally published.

Does the trope page also cover the unofficial fic, or just the published stuff? Because I don't mind keeping the Ascended Fanon stuff in Literature.