Unclear Description: Video Source

Currently, the description of Video Source is buried underneath a long list of rules for videos. Normally we do not use trope pages as repository for policies or rules; that's what the Administrivia/ namespace is for.

There are also unindexed pages Sandbox.Video Ideas and Administrivia.No Video Examples Please that appear to be related to this.

As I was the one who started the No Video Examples, Please! I appreciate it that it needs to be repaired.

Since Administrivia.No Video Examples Please is in the Administrivia namespace, it should probably be indexed under Main.Administrivia and Administrivia.Example Sectionectomy. Since Sandbox.Video Ideas is a sandbox, it probably doesn't need an index.

Edit: Now that I think of it, I doubt a Trivia page for where video examples came from is the right place for a list of rules for how to choose video examples. If there isn't already an Administrivia page for it to go on (it would probably be ideal to put it on an existing page if possible), maybe a new one could be made, with the same page linking to No Video Examples, Please!.

Edit: Would Administrivia.TV Tropes Customs be the right place for the list of rules? It already lists guidelines for editing the wiki and repairing tropes and images. Alternatively, make Administrivia.How To Pick A Video Example and put it under the Administrivia index's "Do"s subsection of the Manual of Style section, which already includes How to Pick a Good Image.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 15th 2020 at 8:03:39 AM

I agree with making Administrivia.How To Pick A Good Video Example or Administrivia.Video Example Guidelines separate from Video Source. I'm honestly surprised there isn't one yet.

I think Administrivia.Video Example Guidelines would be a better name than what I originally suggested, since it's shorter.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 15th 2020 at 8:08:24 AM

Just quickly mentioning that I have made Sandbox.Uploading New Videos if you want to use it (though admittedly the guideline page could be separate).

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 15th 2020 at 7:06:06 PM

I don't know what you mean by it being separate; that looks like exactly what we need to make an Administrivia page for video example guidelines. I think it would be better to have the tech help on the same page for the sake of keeping everything in one place.

Maybe Administrivia.Uploading New Videos could be used instead of any previously suggested names, since it provides technical information in addition to guidelines.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 15th 2020 at 12:47:53 PM

Admittedly, it would be more comfortable to have all the stuff for uploading video examples on one page, though the list of tropes that don't allow videos is on Administrivia.No Video Examples Please. I'd be fine with keeping those pages there (as my sandbox's is incomplete, too) and putting the tech info and guidelines on Administrivia.Uploading New Videos.

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 15th 2020 at 8:26:36 PM

I'm in favor of keeping No Video Examples, Please! the same, aside from fixing its lack of indexing.

Conversely, I'd prefer to have just one page for video rules. In particular, we have nowhere near as many as "video banned" pages as to justify a full index. I've penned up Sandbox.Video Guidelines for the "policy" aspect, the "how to upload" aspect should be put there as well I think.

I agree that there should be one page for rules, that's what I've said. However, a page for what tropes don't allow videos works as an index (and just putting it on a page for guidelines wouldn't show it well, because Administrivia.Uploading New Videos wouldn't show such an index), and there is nothing wrong with an administrative index that only has seven pages.

I also believe that my layout is better, as bullet points show individual points more clearly. And just saying "A. B. C." next to each other comes across as wooden. I see my sandbox as likely more friendly to read and still showing the information needed and it isn't even long (the beginning portion is under 1000 chars and the whole page is about 3000).

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 15th 2020 at 10:06:13 AM

Permission to bullet point what goes and doesn't go for videos on Sandbox.Video Guidelines? ^note Maybe the sentence about tropes that disallow video examples can stay the way it is.

Maybe, but is there anything wrong with my Sandbox.Uploading New Videos page? I'm just curious, I don't see anything wrong there to warrant a separate sandbox (that'll turn almost the same but likely not as good to read/humorous as I have added some bits of humor when bullet points are added).

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 15th 2020 at 10:16:24 AM

Only that I didn't see it. And because the bulleted list makes it too long. When it comes to policies, people's efforts at "clear" tend to lead to "long" and I don't think we have evidence that this drawback is sufficiently compensated. Not sure whether the level in detail of the instructions is too much, either.

I figured the list on No Video Examples, Please! was short because video examples themselves are a recent addition to the site, in contrast to how No Real Life Examples, Please! had to be split because real life example sections have been around for years and have been getting cleaned up for years, and my reasoning behind keeping the list of bans on video examples separate was because I wasn't ruling out the possibility of more pages being added to the index in the future.

Of course, we could just as easily have everything on one page now, and split it later if necessary.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 15th 2020 at 3:51:11 AM

That's very likely the reason it is short, it was explained that Video Examples was released in April last year.

I'd also add example-less Super Tropes to the list as well. I had a video on Badass Grandpa and it was later taken down because of this reason.

Late to the party, but yes, the Video Source should look like Image Source, and Administrivia/ page should cover the guidelines.

Ok, so the "No Video Examples" page can get indexed, or it can be merged with the new policy page. Eith solution is okay.

However, I actually really dislike the Sandbox page, and it should be cutlited IMO. Sandboxes should be for temporary drafts and perhaps for documenting cleanup projects. This is similar to all ZCE issues and half-baked example write-ups. If you don't have the time, skills or recources yourself, don't do it all.

It would be perhaps fine as a forum thread for brainstorming ideas or as a sort of sounding board (like when you'd like to discuss which part would be best, how to best edit the video (time from — to) etc.), but I dislike it on the wiki itself.

Also, someone's confused the purpose of Sandbox.Video Ideas as a place to share made-up scenarios. I second cutting, but if not cut, it has to be EXPLICITLY tied to a project thread.

The Sandbox page is not intended to be an actual example list. It's more of a list of moments people could upload as videos for tropes. It is a maintenance/temporary thing. And besides, we've had plenty of pages where we just give a vague idea for maintenance and people do usually take care of them, like Administrivia.List Of Shows That Need Summary or Administrivia.Pages Needing Images.

Frankly, I do believe it's useful for some people, because I don't think everyone wants to spend 30$ on recording software or risk searching through virus-ridden sites for a reliable You Tube video downloader (for the record, I have done the former, not the latter), plus there are potential other costs if someone needs better hardware or editing tools (I personally thought my hardware was fine, even if I'm not always confident in my sound driver but I'm probably just paranoid, and I'm fine with the default Win 10 editing tools, but someone may think differently). I see this kind of "if you don't have time/skills/resources don't do it" attitude as toxic and being against the wiki spirit, where anyone can edit and suggest improvements for mostly free (in terms of cash, at least).

And apologies for nitpicking, but not "as a place to share", but "with a place to share", unless someone's adding made-up video stuff to the page.

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 19th 2020 at 11:25:16 AM

See, that's the thing, we all have ideas for video examples. Isn't it a quote from something? "I have ideas, you have ideas, everyone has ideas." :-)

The thing is, if you read the examples of any trope from visual media, most of them are hints for video uploads — films, tv, music videos, animation or web videos. (Unless it's some complex narrative pattern that would require combining several scenes from different episodes etc. and those might not fit into the time limit anyway.) We don't need another list.

And frankly, I don't see the sandbox as temporary. Is there evidence it was used for someone to upload a new video and remove the hint from the list as "done"? More likely people will keep adding examples of tropes from their favourite works.

Do you think someone will take a look at that list and be like, "oh, gee, why haven't I thought of that; what a marvelous example; now I must buy this movie I'm not even a fan of and I must immediately cut the video, then upload it and write some description asap". No, I think it works the other way: "I'm such a huge fan of this movie that it's already in my collection. This is a really cool scene, and a perfect example of trope X. I must add it as a new video example."

I don't have a big problem with Video Ideas, but I've never really seen much of a point; see, if you're interested and able to upload videos, you probably already have a few ideas already. I get new video ideas all the time- and none of them are from the sandbox. Most of them are from obscure works or works nobody but me actually seems to care about, so it's either I upload them, or nobody will.

IDK. I guess I don't care if it stays or goes, but in my experience, if you are able to upload a video, you probably also have some idea of what sort of videos you want to upload.

I can also see the sandbox being prone to Fan Myopia- "Of course this work needs this one scene to be turned into a video! It's such a popular and great work, why has nobody made a video for it yet?"

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 19th 2020 at 10:11:37 AM

So... I've actually read some subpages of Video Ideas, and it is as useful as any other ZCE-filled page.

Ok, so some write-ups actually try to explain what scene could be used. Some only mention that it's the top page image scene, or the top page quote scene or the trope-naming scene (which, BTW, I think can be actually confusing, rather than explain the broad concept and narratively meaningful pattern).

Most only mention a work's title and a trope name.

Honestly, we won't lose anything important if it gets cutlisted.

However, if it gets salvaged, it shouldn't be in the Sandbox namespace.

Bumping this, with some opinions:

• Video Example Guidelines is good to me as a title. Per my previous comments, I prefer Video Guidelines over Uploading New Videos for the policy text.
• I think it's quite premature to have No Video Examples, Please! with so few pages. Especially since unlike troping video uploading is very much a niche activity that does not need a lot of guidance.
• I concur that Video Ideas isn't useful and should be cut.
• At the end, Video Source should look like Image Source ... I agree with this.

The 797 pages of the Video Quality Control thread would prove otherwise.