Values Dissonance/Resonance Cleanup

I'm pretty sure the movie has always been considered horrible by basically everyone who watched it, but IDK if the scene was brought up in discourse when it first aired.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Right, that's my question. What matters at this point is what people thought of it when it was released.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

I'll take it. It's been a few years since I've watched it last.

FWIW, looked around for critic reviews from the time, and none of the ones I've found give any specific mention of the scene while lambasting the film. So at the very least, it wasn't viewed as notable enough to be worth singling out amongst everything else that's bad about the movie.

Edited by RacattackForce on May 23rd 2023 at 4:17:28 AM

I'm not sure if it can help, but The Other Wiki mentions that Bio-Dome was panned by critics, only made $13 million and its in the list of The Worst Movie Ever!

Edited by SoyValdo7 on May 23rd 2023 at 3:39:03 AM

Valdo

Yeah, general reception to the movie is that it sucks, but mostly because the main characters are unlikable morons and the plot is stupid, not because of any sexual assault controversy. The film is painting sexually assaulting women while they're asleep as the actions of dumb moronic nuisances and not as sexual assault. That's the value being demonstrated, that that kind of behavior is just idiots being idiots trying to "score" and not a serious crime.

Edited by PhiSat on May 23rd 2023 at 5:50:42 AM

Oissu!

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's good to keep in mind that it's not the only bad thing that happens in the movie. In one scene, Bud and Dooley reminisce about how the mother of one of them (I can't remember which one) taught them to swim, and then it cuts to a scene where the mother forces Dooley's head into the water for a long time. That scene is Played for Laughs. This would be considered child abuse in the real life, but no reviewer mentions that particular scene.

My point is that, as WarJay77 has commented, this is a shock film full of dark humor. It knows it's transgressive, and people at that time didn't like it just because of it, so I'm not sure it counts.

Valdo

There has definitely been a shift in the way we depict sexual assault in media in recent years so I would say it counts even if it overlaps with Black Comedy Rape. But if it was trying to be edgy on purpose and not make the characters doing it likable then it muddies things and probably doesn't count.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I get the impression that the leads at the time were considered unlikeable even as Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonists, and that scene was just one reason among many. So I wouldn't consider it VD because the dissonance was there at the time, between how the film presented them and how audiences saw them.

Edited by Reymma on May 23rd 2023 at 1:46:53 PM

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

Nothing, I'm just an idiot who can't read.

Edited by SoyValdo7 on May 23rd 2023 at 11:11:03 AM

Valdo

What isn't?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I found this on YMMV.Phantasy Star I

• Values Resonance: The game starred Alis as its female protagonist in the first installment of Sega's flagship role-playing game series, which was a notable decision in 1987 and only got better over time. Alis avoids many pitfalls that some other video games of the time are criticized for: her character doesn't revolve around pursuing a love interest (her goal is to avenge her brother's death), her outfit is a standard suit of armor with Modesty Shorts instead of something impractically skimpy like Leotard of Power commonly associated with JRPGs of its time, and the story never once treats her, a leading lady of the party who excels at swordfighting, out of the ordinary.

It doesn't explain how her being relevant today, mostly focusing how different Alis was from other females characters in games at time which, while worth noting and appreaciated, is not exactly what the trope is about. Would like other opinions though.

She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A

I agree but I can't think of what other item would fit it (maybe Feminist Fantasy, but that's a trope I have always found dubious).

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

Alright, I hope no one minds me bringing up these examples from Rugrats:

• Values Dissonance:
  • While the reboot does feature the babies escaping from their playpen there is no way episodes such as Tommy being kidnapped by criminals or having his life threatened in a post office would EVER be allowed to air, let alone be treated as humorous.
  • In "Weaning Tommy", Stu and Didi close the door on Tommy and simply leave him to cry himself to sleep. This was already a controversial method at the time, but it's fallen ever increasingly out of favor.
  • In "A Visit from Lipschitz" Didi leaves the titular famous doctor to his own devices in her home alone to tell Stu off for leaving his presence to go to a ballgame with the guys^note completely unawares that Stu, Lou and Chas didn’t take Tommy or Chuckie with them. This leaves two babies home alone with an absolute total stranger only known for his fame and prestige while he proceeds to unknowingly strip naked in front of them to take a bath. Ignoring that Dr. Lipschitz is a celebrity, the idea of leaving a complete stranger alone in your house is not something that would really fly anymore let alone be Played for Laughs.

The second one probably counts, but I'm not sure about the first one.

The third one is similar to a Harsher in Hindsight example that I recently brought up and removed. I say the same thing applies here: concerns about Stranger Danger were around in the 90s.

Dunno about the second one. I checked the recap page and it sounds like it's depicted in a negative manner ?

Rugrats S 1 E 10 Weaning Tommy Incident In Aisle Seven

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

On YMMV.Bloom Into You

• Values Dissonance: Sayaka's ex breaking up with her because they're no longer "little kids," then apologizing for getting her interested in girlfriends, is the product of Japanese views on homosexuality dating back to the Meiji era, in which lesbian love is thought of as a phase girls eventually outgrow in favor of getting boyfriends. That said, Sayaka, who has the Sympathetic P.O.V. in those scenes, was deeply hurt by her ex's actions, which are presented as deeply misguided at best, and when she meets her ex again, subtly makes the point that she's still a lesbian. It's also worth noting that Riko and Miyako, both adult women, are in a committed, if secret, lesbian relationship, and have been shown kissing.

Maybe this is just me, but this feels more like something on the lines of Deliberate Values Dissonance or what not than actual Values Dissonance, since it's made clear in the manga the ex is in the wrong for having such views on lesbian relationships (while also throwing shade at the "Class S" culture in general) and the manga is firmly on Sayaka's side.

Edited by Tylerbear12 on Jun 1st 2023 at 10:21:34 AM

Like I said in the "Is this an example thread?", it's definitely not Values Dissonance. Though I don't know about Deliberate Values Dissonance because I've recently seen it claimed that that's only for outdated real life values specifically, and works like this calling out this sort of thing wouldn't exist if it was wholly outdated.

I'd rather lose that requirement entirely, mind you, but that might be a bigger discussion. Assuming it's actually a thing at all, since I've never seen it be a thing with Deliberate Values Dissonance examples in practice.

I've seen it used in fantasy settings to indicate things like "only women can be witches, and male witches are frowned upon", sort of similar to Fantastic Racism.

Valdo

As I understand the manga is not out of the author's time or place, so it's not even DVD, it's deconstruction or social criticism. The entry seems to be a misplaced attempt to explain the context to Western readers. Surely there are other entries where that can go like Gay Romantic Phase: deconstructed.

Edited by Reymma on Jun 1st 2023 at 11:53:35 AM

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

(x4) It sounds like it might be Deliberate Values Dissonance to me since it sounds more likely intentional than unintentional in my opinion. However, either way I don't think it's Values Dissonance, partly because the work doesn't seem old enough to count (the work needs to be at least twenty years old and the original manga only came out in 2015).

As I understand it, homophobia is pretty common in Japan; while gradually falling out of favour, it is still accepted.

It sounds like that manga is critiquing contemporary social attitudes, so wouldn't count as DVD.

Ukrainian Red Cross

Yeah, that's been my understanding as well. It's not Values Dissonance, it's a direct response to contemporary attitudes from people in the country where it was written.

And just to cover the bases, it wouldn't count for Culture Clash-based VD, either, because the West is also home to a lot of homophobia itself. Hell, in places like certain parts of the US, the amount is actually significantly increasing.

Admittedly, most of our VD examples use liberal values (Feminism, LGBTQ+ rights, child raising tactics, etc) so we never really seem to even count the American conservatives that still exist in large numbers. IDK really know if there's much we can do about this, but it's definitely the current trend and precedent.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I mean, if we have to factor in atavisms, we may as well just cut the trope entirely.

What is an atavism?

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