Values Dissonance/Resonance Cleanup

From YMMV.Mrs Doubtfire:

• Harvey Fierstein's character is depicted in a relatively positive light, if a bit camp. That he has a healthy relationship with his partner is downright progressive from a movie from 1993, nearly two decades before the general public agreed same-sex marriage should be allowed at all.

Not disputing the example, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of putting a date on "the general public agree[ing] same-sex marriage should be allowed". Which general public? How do you measure agreement?

I feel like they pulled that date out of thin air. The date when all state bans on Gay marriage in the states were overturned is likely to be used by American editors as the date when "the general public was accepting of gay marriage"...but not only is that not actually an accurate description, that was 2015

Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?

Not sure if this has been discussed here yet, but I found out that this point was added to YMMV.Captain Rainbow back in 2018 and then removed around a year ago without an edit summary for the latter:

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• Values Dissonance: Birdo in this game received dissonance twice. At the time of release, trans people were still a general "unknown" to the mainstream in many countries and weren't allowed in children's works without references to them being trans being removed. Thus, this was one issue that led the game to stay in Japan. Years later, with more trans characters in the media, the jokes about Birdo would likely be deemed offensive and transphobic in many areas.

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(For reference, Birdo isn't explicitly stated to be trans in-game, but is heavily implied to be such.)

Captain Rainbow came out in 2008, so it's still too new for the second part to apply (the earliest it could be listed is 2028), but I'm curious regarding the first part, about cross-cultural perception (which doesn't require a waiting period). Should it be added back in with the last sentence removed or does it not really apply?

Be kind.

Birdo being trans didn't originate in Captain Rainbow.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Fair point, though AFAIK this is the only game where she's actually depicted as such outside of a one-off comment in the Super Mario Bros. 2 manual.

Be kind.

I believe the music video for Dr Hook's Baby Makes Her Blue Jeans Talk should belong in this trope.

This is on Planet 51:

Values Dissonance: Sorta subverted, since, despite the film was created and produced in Spain, the scriptwriter was Joe Stillman, who is American. It's possible that Stillman decided to write the script based on how Americans perceive animation, rather than aiming at how Spaniards did at the time — while the Animation Age Ghetto had long since fallen in America and elsewhere, Spain was among the last holdouts for such attitudes towards animation.

I'm... I'm not even sure what that's trying to say...

Edited by fragglelover on Apr 26th 2022 at 3:19:40 AM

"Sorta subverted" on a YMMV item already violates two rules. It's trying to say this would not be made in the States because they don't like animation as an art as much... maybe, but it's not VD/R and it's mostly speculation anyway. Cut it.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

I found these on The Wizard of Oz under Values Dissonance:

• The moral of "happiness is found only in your own back yard" might have made sense during The Great Depression, but is a lot more subjective in post-WWII America, when the ideals of the American dream were ambition and building to a bigger and better life. It might come off a tad too conservative for progressives who are strongly dissatisfied with their status quo and want to work towards positive, effective change. Still, "appreciate the good things that you already have" is not that bad of a moral.
• Just before our heroes are attacked by the flying monkeys, Scarecrow can be seen clumsily carrying a revolver. Modern family movies rarely even show firearms in a negative light, if at all.

Want to get some input on this entry in Northanger Abbey:

"John Thorpe describes someone as being "rich as a Jew". However, this is actually Values Dissonance from John Thorpe, not from Jane Austen. She indirectly criticizes his xenophobia earlier in the story. The Setting Update version from The Austen Project doesn't change this at all, with the result that John comes off much worse much more quickly."

Since the entry acknowledges that this is not shown to be Austen's view and Thorpe is noted on the other work pages as being a Politically Incorrect Villain, can it be removed? You could make an argument for Fair for Its Day because nobody ever tells him off for being antisemetic, but it's all a part and parcel of "John Thorpe is a self-serving ignorant blowhard who never knows what he's talking about."

"Happiness is in your own backyard" is still a common moral in stories today. I know Wizard of Oz gets hit with Angst Dissonance sometimes because Dorothy starts looking for a way back to Kansas the instant she hits Oz, but "protagonist longs to be somewhere different and realizes they love home most of all" has shown up plenty of times since WWII.

The gun isn't mentioned or used at all, it's essentially a Freeze-Frame Bonus.

I'd like to bring this entry that was added under Values Dissonance to this board's attention.

"The portrayal of Wonka as an "eccentric rich person" also doesn't resonate well with audiences of The New '10s and The New '20s, in which billionaires became less "Quirky" and more sociopaths who buy their way out of consequences."

This entry was already brought up before and while it appears the consensus was that it wasn't a good example, it remains up.

Personally, my issue with it is that it doesn't offer any qualifiers for why Wonka is outdated other than he's an "eccentric rich person" and billionaires today are psychopaths who use their money for immoral purposes. Besides the fact that I don't believe Wonka is ever stated to be a billionaire or has his wealth specified, saying that Wonka is rich and mega-rich people have used their wealth for bad things seems like a major Hitler Ate Sugar argument to me.

Just imagine something here.

People have acknowledged both the problems with billionaires and the insanity of Wonka for decades.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Isn't Wonka portrayed as a sociopath anyways in some adaptations?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

While things like the portrayal of the Oompa Loompas almost certainly wouldn’t fly today (though I assume that’s already listed), that’s a serious reach that borders on Hitler Ate Sugar. Billionaires aren’t bad because they’re eccentric and rich. They’re bad because of how they got their money (though considering the Oompa Loompas that may actually hold water) and for their extremely selfish behavior. That’s closer to a Stock Parody than Values Dissonance.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on May 6th 2022 at 8:29:44 AM

Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?

I never said it was. I'm using it as an example of why that one is bad, in addition to the other problems brought up. (It's also not necessarily a parody joke- many adaptations outright imply that Wonka is killing the other kids and stuff.)

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

That’s closer to a Deconstruction in that case.

Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?

Okay. That's still not the point.

I was poking fun, anyway, hence the pothole... It's really not worth getting into a whole debate about. My point is, the example says "Wonka is just portrayed as eccentric" and in a lot of adaptations he's really, really not.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Its also questionable if it even counts since the rich have rarely, if ever, been liked by society. I wasn’t alive when the book was written but I’d imagine that ultra rich business tycoons weren’t very popular back then.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on May 6th 2022 at 8:37:43 AM

Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?

People think that Mark Zuckerberg invented capitalism just like they think Jeffrey Epstein invented pedophilia and COVID was the first pandemic.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

...or the Columbine shooting as the first fatal mass school shooting, which we have discussed numerous times earlier.

Edited by Nen_desharu on May 6th 2022 at 10:41:52 AM

Kirby is awesome.

So are we leaning towards "cut" for that particular entry?

Just imagine something here.

Obviously we are.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

It's a safe cut no doubt.

Kirby is awesome.